"Story" in 7dtd - my random thoughts

[Matt115]

Well in kickstarter we have point expanded story right? 

but no word "story mode". So-  TFP don't have to to make this because they can do this in diffrent way.  Well most of us know game theory channel on yt right? 

So i think the best way to add story into 7dtd is create "lore" not typical story.

Why? 

1. cheaper - well this is much cheaper to do for example  70 notes , 30 POI , etc that make storyline with few factions,  voice acting etc 

2. theories- people likes theories so this allow  famous channelson yt twitch  make videos about "secret lore" theories. So people will be watch them = free advertising. And ofc it can give hints about sequel spinoff or about new game right?

3. less bugs - okay  story mode need to be SP only to avoid tons of bugs exploits  etc. Because mmo style  story telling can't work because for example -destructible world , no "small exclusive locations" in 7dtd 

4. force to effort - if we would have normal story mode people will just go to npc get quest do this do another quest etc right? But if  players  want to know 7dtd they need  looking for clues like - note in military base, photos and map on the wall in hospital, broken lab stuff etc.  So they will be forced to do something more that do quests right?  i think make sherlock holmes job is more better that another "kill 5 zombie and bring stuff" quest. Well we can't expect good story in rpg style like gothic witcher or skyrim but still we can get good lore

 

So  what do you think guys?

maybe some devs whill write something about that 

[ricp]

I am entirely non-plussed about a story line. I'll be honest, if one was introduced and there was a choice of "free play" or "story" I would never take the latter option. What I would like to see is an end game option, and it could be easily rolled into the game as is - we already have the necessary items. Allow me to expand.

 

In order to "get out of the map" you need to reach a certain day, game stage level, have crafted a gyro and assembled the NBC (hazmat) suit. When you have you then fly to a specific edge of map location that will be baked in during random gen. We already have radiation zones surrounding the map, we have the gyro and hazmat as part of the loot table already and day/game stage is just a matter of time. The tough part should be getting the NBC, it's quite rare in the game, and I would propose making it ever rarer, ideally only in Wasteland tier 5, or make the crafting of the item (and I don't think you can craft them in game, I could be wrong) somewhat prohibitive.

 

The end location could be a base or a building or just a point on the map, it just needs to be within the radiation zone, blocking any early progress. When you have reached the point where you have all the required gear/progression, the choice is then up to you, you can dip out and "finish" the map, or continue playing until Day XXX like we do just now. The "end game" is entirely optional but allows the player "closure". I am sure I am not the only person who would like that, as I often "finish" a playthrough with a touch of melancholy purely because the ending wasn't resolved - I simply got bored of a map I'd lived in for (irl) days on end.

 

What do you get when you "end" the game? I don't know, perhaps take the set of stats showing how many zombies killed, distance travelled (all stuff you can access anyway), etc, and have that information displayed over a fully visible map. If there was a way to show your progression on the map (either by where and when you placed things like land claim blocks, or perhaps the location you fought the horde. It might need some minor data collection as you play through the game but nothing more than dates and co-ordinates so shouldn't be too heavy. In fact, if you did that, it would be a simple task to show the map revealing in the order you uncovered it in game.

 

 

Of course, all that could be collected together to provide the framework for a storyline.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by ricp (see edit history)

[bloodmoth13]

36 minutes ago, ricp said:

 

 

 

Of course, all that could be collected together to provide the framework for a storyline.

 

 

I think your idea is a little niche tbh. Like, i get it, you want to have your final hoorah and thats cool, but idk why bother with something like that when players will only play it once.

Though thinking back to oldschool shooters like doom you only needed to do the final boss once.

 

T5 PoIs should already function as that...

i do like the idea in many ways and wouldnt protest it being added as it would be fun to have a niche use for those niche items, I do think that using the 'edge of the map' though would come with issues as those areas are generally barren.

Maybe just one single final tier POI in the game that is underground or something? like resident evil? that could function as the final story level too... you could bring the whole irradiated stuff into that zone to stop people popping in early game just the same, pretty sure those biomes existed in previous alphas.

 

Honestly that is kind of antithetical to the sandbox mode, by the sounds of things you actually WANT the story mode because THAT is exactly what it would bring, closure...

 

I think you just need to set goals for yourself, tell yourself you have to have X by Y day and defend a horde on max settings on that day and start a new game.

My current playthrough is mostly pure perception because i wanted to test if it was viable and it has worked out plenty fine (i always turn my playthroughs into in games and respec with all the coin i get)

Putting my own limits on made the game more fun for me, and now im ready to try another playthrough after my next horde night.

 

[ricp]

23 minutes ago, bloodmoth13 said:

I think your idea is a little niche tbh. Like, i get it, you want to have your final hoorah and thats cool, but idk why bother with something like that when players will only play it once. Though thinking back to oldschool shooters like doom you only needed to do the final boss once.

 

The game loop is entirely different to boomer shooters, so I don't really see the comparison. You mention Doom but it was nothing more than following a very linear path and collecting a specific set of weapons in order to fight pre-ordained enemy set pieces.

 

As for the "players will only use it once", I'd counter that, if given the option, the majority of players would rather do a finishing task rather than just not play it again - which is what happens at the end of everyone's playthrough. You literally just get bored so stop playing, having "an out" provides closure on that.

 

In terms of edge of map, I can't see how it would come with issues, in that 500m or so of radiation zone, the random gen creates a specific PoI. If you are worried that people would just walk off the map, then there is a simple solution to that, just ramp up the radiation to a point where the suit doesn't protect you so it's impossible to get off the physical map. In terms of rendering the space so that you don't reach a point where you are at "worlds edge", simply render water as far as the eye can see, or flat land depending on what you choose you map edges to be. This is sort of similar to how DayZ does it.

 

34 minutes ago, bloodmoth13 said:

Honestly that is kind of antithetical to the sandbox mode, by the sounds of things you actually WANT the story mode because THAT is exactly what it would bring, closure...

 

The reason I care little about the story is that I dislike storylines in general. I am, by all metrics, a misanthrope. The last thing I want to do is be "forced" into caring about a character. I appreciate this is something specific to me, but I've stopped playing many a game because there has been some convoluted and contrived plot that you are meant to invest your time in. I don't think I would get closure from a storyline, and to be honest I think your claim that people would only play it once is far more accurate should a storyline be introduced.

 

There is the concern that, and I mean this as no disrespect, TFP will make an absolute mess of the storyline. It's a very hard thing to do, many many games fall down badly due to it, and it would be a shame to see 7DtD "ruined" because of it.

 

38 minutes ago, bloodmoth13 said:

I think you just need to set goals for yourself, tell yourself you have to have X by Y day and defend a horde on max settings on that day and start a new game.

My current playthrough is mostly pure perception because i wanted to test if it was viable and it has worked out plenty fine (i always turn my playthroughs into in games and respec with all the coin i get)

Putting my own limits on made the game more fun for me, and now im ready to try another playthrough after my next horde night.

 

I get that, doing "the build", I've never done perception because for me every single item is either massively OP or utterly useless, barring the rifle, but I have done similar. Thing is saying X by day Y is surely just the same idea as having a end goal to reach?

 

 

Don't be disheartened if a lot of this reply seems to counter what you wrote. I think the ideas you put forward are as valid as mine, and you raise some good points.

[bloodmoth13]

On 1/3/2022 at 12:47 AM, ricp said:

 

The game loop is entirely different to boomer shooters, so I don't really see the comparison. You mention Doom but it was nothing more than following a very linear path and collecting a specific set of weapons in order to fight pre-ordained enemy set pieces.

 

As for the "players will only use it once", I'd counter that, if given the option, the majority of players would rather do a finishing task rather than just not play it again - which is what happens at the end of everyone's playthrough. You literally just get bored so stop playing, having "an out" provides closure on that.

 

In terms of edge of map, I can't see how it would come with issues, in that 500m or so of radiation zone, the random gen creates a specific PoI. If you are worried that people would just walk off the map, then there is a simple solution to that, just ramp up the radiation to a point where the suit doesn't protect you so it's impossible to get off the physical map. In terms of rendering the space so that you don't reach a point where you are at "worlds edge", simply render water as far as the eye can see, or flat land depending on what you choose you map edges to be. This is sort of similar to how DayZ does it.

 

 

The reason I care little about the story is that I dislike storylines in general. I am, by all metrics, a misanthrope. The last thing I want to do is be "forced" into caring about a character. I appreciate this is something specific to me, but I've stopped playing many a game because there has been some convoluted and contrived plot that you are meant to invest your time in. I don't think I would get closure from a storyline, and to be honest I think your claim that people would only play it once is far more accurate should a storyline be introduced.

 

There is the concern that, and I mean this as no disrespect, TFP will make an absolute mess of the storyline. It's a very hard thing to do, many many games fall down badly due to it, and it would be a shame to see 7DtD "ruined" because of it.

 

 

I get that, doing "the build", I've never done perception because for me every single item is either massively OP or utterly useless, barring the rifle, but I have done similar. Thing is saying X by day Y is surely just the same idea as having a end goal to reach?

 

 

Don't be disheartened if a lot of this reply seems to counter what you wrote. I think the ideas you put forward are as valid as mine, and you raise some good points.

I wasnt comparing the entire game to doom, just the final map, a 'level' where you go from start to finish and see the credits roll. Thats great and all but does that suddenly end your game and delete the file? or can you just boot it back up and go back to your base?

In that case... then what? the game isnt over is it?

if you have the option to come back then it is NEVER over, if you want closure YOU need to put your foot down and say exactly where you want to finish. You can say after doing every T5 POI.

 

The only definitive end would come from a story mode which i imagine wouldnt be cutscene heavy in a game like this, it would probably be event driven and involve a final POI to beat.

 

I think having a single mega complex where the zombie virus originated that is like the final difficulty, which would essentially be what you are asking for, but it would be up to you to call it quits afterwards.

 

 

[Pernicious]

They've dropped a fair few hints in the game, like Trader Jen making references to making protection payments. Put that together with the note you get at the start of the game, and I'm assuming that the Duke is extorting money out of the good people in Navezgane by sending Zombies every 7 days if they don't pay.

 

Perhaps one way of getting a very simple story in, is that for each trader in the game, when you do enough T5 quests, you get one final "Special Quest", but instead of going to a new trader, they send you to a special POI with a clue as to where the Duke is, and/or an item needed to get to him (perhaps parts of a hazmat suit).

 

Once you have maxed out every trader and finished their last special quest, you get your gyrocopter and hazmat suit, fly out to an island somewhere just off the normal map, and face a horde night level of zombies with no base to protect yourself.

 

If you manage to beat the horde and get into his base, you finally get to the Duke, and you can either blow his head off and become the new Duke of Navezgane, or pay him your debt (Yeah right, like anyone's going to take that option). Alternatively, you could choose to free the people of Navezgane by killing all the zombies.

 

I'd be happy with a simple story like that - Wouldn't need any cut scenes (well, maybe one at the end scene), very little dev work, etc.

[ricp]

 

10 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

Thats great and all but does that suddenly end your game and delete the file? or can you just boot it back up and go back to your base?

In that case... then what? the game isnt over is it?

if you have the option to come back then it is NEVER over, if you want closure YOU need to put your foot down and say exactly where you want to finish. You can say after doing every T5 POI.

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough but it's a choice, if you want to leave the map with closure you can, and the game will offer you a "goal" to reach in order to do that. If you don't want to finish you can carry on playing. The latter is the only option just now. The goal was never intended to stop you playing, unlike Doom (just for example) you are forced linearly to a specific point and there is no other options, you die or you finish the game and it's over. My suggestion is just something to aim for, if you want to, it's not explicit.

 

For me, locking anyone out of a map because you have completed a goal would be the wrong idea. This is an open world, you don't have any other open world game (or at least none I can think of) that literally stops you returning to your game. Minecraft being a perfect example, you kill the dragon which is it's end game goal, but it doesn't stop you from returning back to your map, and rightly so as users will have invested a lot of time and effort into their world, so it seems almost cruel to block them from returning to it.

 

10 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

The only definitive end would come from a story mode which i imagine wouldnt be cutscene heavy in a game like this, it would probably be event driven and involve a final POI to beat. I think having a single mega complex where the zombie virus originated that is like the final difficulty, which would essentially be what you are asking for, but it would be up to you to call it quits afterwards.

 

So like Darkness Falls? I've never completed it to be honest, sadly the mod always lags really badly on my machine so it's impossible to play into late game on my PC for some reason, but that's DF's end game isn't it?

 

I've got no problem where this goal is positioned, or the logic as to why you are looking for it. Whether it's an "edge of map radiation PoI" or a centrally placed "zombie origin PoI", then I'm cool. It's not so much the location I was tied to, more just providing an end game out should they want it. The same questions should be asked of your solution, though, will it be deleted (btw, any dev deleting game files is a bad dev), can you return to the map once it's "finished", etc.

 

In terms of lore, finding a suitable location off the map which is reflected by my "edge of map radiation PoI", then 'escaping', suits the person being able to return. You have closure on the map because you have escaped but everything else continues as normal. With your "zombie origin PoI" then once you take on that origin, it makes sense that the zombies stop spawning, which would suggest the map is definitely finished and you shouldn't go back. There are obvious caveats and assumptions made here, after all it's lore which can be moulded in many ways.

 

Got to say, in regard to cut scenes, I'd really, really, really like that not to be the case. It's the TFPs game, and if they decide to put them in then that's fine, but not for me, I find cut scenes in general to be utterly rotten, exposition for the sake of exposition because people are bad at story writing.

[bloodmoth13]

1 hour ago, ricp said:

Got to say, in regard to cut scenes, I'd really, really, really like that not to be the case. It's the TFPs game, and if they decide to put them in then that's fine, but not for me, I find cut scenes in general to be utterly rotten, exposition for the sake of exposition because people are bad at story writing.

honestly it doesnt really seem like we are disagreeing on anything, i get your point of view and the reasons for it and dont necessarily disagree.

I think all the game needs is to guarantee a ridiculously hard level POI that is the final skill test that people can say they beat and move on. 

[ricp]

1 hour ago, bloodmoth13 said:

honestly it doesnt really seem like we are disagreeing on anything, i get your point of view and the reasons for it and dont necessarily disagree.

I think all the game needs is to guarantee a ridiculously hard level POI that is the final skill test that people can say they beat and move on. 

 

Oh, I agree. I think we both fancy "something" to aim for. The rest is just balancing around it.