Tactical Rifle Damage Balancing

[alexbyrd2]

I think its odd that a tactical rifle does less base damage than an m60 and also fires slower and has a much smaller mag. It makes sense that an smg is weaker at base, since it's a smaller caliber, but a tac rifle uses the same ammo. There should be a benefit to using a weapon with a smaller mag and lower rate of fire i think. Maybe buff the base damage to place it between the m60 and sniper in terms of base damage, otherwise there's no reason to use it vs the m60.

[Cruiser]

If I'm not mistaken, the tactical is based on a M4, which uses 5.56... I guess they use the same ammo, to make it easier for people to administer their ammo production/consumption.

That they don't do the same amount of damage, probably comes down to the above.

the tactical isn't fullauto either, you have to mod it for that feature. The M60 comes full auto, so you can add an other mod.

But yes, there is no benefit from using the tactical for other purposes than as a backup..

And then there is the rarety of those guns... I haven't found a since of them, at any decent quality, and the M60 is quite often a mission reward.

[Syphon583]

Yeah, this game isn't meant to be a realistic shooter in any way. Of course there are players that would love more realistic gunplay, but this game is closer to arcade than tactical shooter.

 

The tac rifle is meant to be a tier 2 rifle (tier 0 is pipe, tier 1 is AK) and a stepping stone to the m60. I do wish they would introduce more ammo types, but as was already stated, I think due to the more arcade-y nature of the game, TFP decided to consolidate to make managing ammo easier.

 

EDIT: There are a number of mods out there that add weapons and ammo (quality varies), but I mostly stick to vanilla when it comes to the weapons.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Syphon583 (see edit history)

[alexbyrd2]

But the problem with treating the tac rifle as a stepping stone for the m60 is that it's an entirely different skill tree. If that was the case the shouldn't the tac rifle fall under the machine gunner skill?

 

I get it's not a realistic shooter game, but at the very least we can do some balancing with what's already in game to make other weapons more viable as playstyles. Each weapon skill should have a final tier weapon that makes it viable for late game stages. As it stands there almost no reason to choose the smg or tac rifle over the m60 for late game play. You could even argue that the auto shotty falls short, since the m60 with additional perks staggers so often and has such high ammo capacity that it doesn't make sense not to use it, even in close quarters where the shotty should excel.

 

And if the sniper skill is only meant for single shot rifles, like the hunting/sniper/lever-action, then how do we make them viable in the majority of poi's?

Edited September 8, 2023 by alexbyrd2 (see edit history)

[Riamus]

32 minutes ago, alexbyrd2 said:

And if the sniper skill is only meant for single shot rifles, like the hunting/sniper/lever-action, then how do we make them viable in the majority of poi's?

I don't think every weapon needs to be viable in all situations.  The sniper is great for horde night and I think that is fine.  There isn't anything wrong with a weapon for different situations.

[BFT2020]

54 minutes ago, alexbyrd2 said:

I get it's not a realistic shooter game, but at the very least we can do some balancing with what's already in game to make other weapons more viable as playstyles. Each weapon skill should have a final tier weapon that makes it viable for late game stages. As it stands there almost no reason to choose the smg or tac rifle over the m60 for late game play. You could even argue that the auto shotty falls short, since the m60 with additional perks staggers so often and has such high ammo capacity that it doesn't make sense not to use it, even in close quarters where the shotty should excel.

 

The other weapons are viable for use in the end game.  I typically run agility heavy builds so I am using that SMG (and Desert Vulture) as an end game weapon over the M60.  Sure if I have the M60, it is one of the weapons I use on horde nights, but the SMG / Desert Vulture is always in my tool bar along with the occasional pump shotgun (just like it over the auto shottie).

 

If am fully perked into gunslinger, then the SMG is going to be better for me to use than an unperked M60.  Just because one or two weapons are superior to the other weapons when perked into doesn't mean the other weapons don't have any value, especially when you perk into them also.

 

And I know what I am talking about as I usually try to get to at least 100 days each playthrough on the higher difficulties.

[alexbyrd2]

59 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

The other weapons are viable for use in the end game.  I typically run agility heavy builds so I am using that SMG (and Desert Vulture) as an end game weapon over the M60.  Sure if I have the M60, it is one of the weapons I use on horde nights, but the SMG / Desert Vulture is always in my tool bar along with the occasional pump shotgun (just like it over the auto shottie).

 

If am fully perked into gunslinger, then the SMG is going to be better for me to use than an unperked M60.  Just because one or two weapons are superior to the other weapons when perked into doesn't mean the other weapons don't have any value, especially when you perk into them also.

 

And I know what I am talking about as I usually try to get to at least 100 days each playthrough on the higher difficulties.

I would agree that a a fully perked gunslinger smg is going to do better than an unperked m60. My point is a fully perked m60 is better than most any other weapon in the majority of situations, especially any you might use an smg for. At best you might say that smg is quieter and allows for some stealth play, but only with controlled single shots, not full auto, so why not just use a vulture at that point. The moment you go loud m60 reigns supreme.

Edited September 8, 2023 by alexbyrd2 (see edit history)

[FramFramson]

The Machine Gun tree moving from being partial sidegrades to just strictly-better progression was a bit of a dumbing down. In A17, A19 etc. the AK was a fair alternative to the Not-AR-15, but not anymore.

 

I think if you wanted to make it more of a tradeoff, holding the M60 should slow you down quite a bit (I mean come on, we're talking about a weapon which is normally crew-served, not even like a BAR or something similarly intermediate), this would keep its value as a horde night gun, while making it more difficult to use as some sort of high-power assault rifle as the game does.

 

The pistol tree does a much better job of staying interesting for most of its incarnations, even though the damage progression is still always upwards. The rifle and shotgun trees don't bother me because those are more situational/one dimensional weapons due to their inherent drawbacks (damage volume vs range). It's really only the Machine gun tree where this stands out.

 

EDIT: Though for reference the SMG is probably the most viable Horde Night main weapon after the M60. It actually has a higher rate of fire than the M60 and I believe the fully perked DPM is comparable between the two.

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by FramFramson (see edit history)

[Riamus]

I personally never use the M60 but that's just personal taste.  For horde night, I'll use the tactical until I get a sniper and then I'll use that.  For the rest of the time, I'll use a combination of SMG and desert vulture.

[binf_shinana]

M60が強力なことは間違いないですが、M60をナーフしてもSMGを常に使うようになるだけであり、それは本質的には変化がない状態と同じです。
M60を基準に他を強化し、かつ好みやRNG、職業システムなどによって常に最適解が変動することが望ましいと考えています。

 

(google translation)

There's no doubt that the M60 is powerful, but nerfing the M60 will only make you use SMGs all the time, which is essentially the same as no change.
We believe it is desirable to strengthen others based on M60, and to constantly change the optimal solution depending on preferences, RNG, occupation system, etc.

[BFT2020]

15 hours ago, alexbyrd2 said:

I would agree that a a fully perked gunslinger smg is going to do better than an unperked m60. My point is a fully perked m60 is better than most any other weapon in the majority of situations, especially any you might use an smg for. At best you might say that smg is quieter and allows for some stealth play, but only with controlled single shots, not full auto, so why not just use a vulture at that point. The moment you go loud m60 reigns supreme.

 

Which, if you allow me to boil all this down, is simply max-min type of play.  M60 is the maxed weapon out there, why bother with anything else?🤔🙄

 

Everything doesn't have to be exactly the same to be balanced, and shouldn't.  If everything should be balanced to be the same, then just get rid of everything else and only have one melee weapon and one range weapon.

[FramFramson]

13 hours ago, binf_shinana said:

M60が強力なことは間違いないですが、M60をナーフしてもSMGを常に使うようになるだけであり、それは本質的には変化がない状態と同じです。
M60を基準に他を強化し、かつ好みやRNG、職業システムなどによって常に最適解が変動することが望ましいと考えています。

 

(google translation)

There's no doubt that the M60 is powerful, but nerfing the M60 will only make you use SMGs all the time, which is essentially the same as no change.
We believe it is desirable to strengthen others based on M60, and to constantly change the optimal solution depending on preferences, RNG, occupation system, etc.

 

Agree. Without the M60, the SMG would have no peer as a medium-ranged/long-ranged (with barrel extender) horde night gun.

 

For now we have one weapon for each type of ammunition which is late game horde-night viable (yes, sniper rifle fans, I know you can use them on horde night with the right base design), except for .44, so in my own game I've added a .44 submachine gun for some added variety - but it would be nice if the base game had a handful more ranged weapons here or there.

 

In addition to an SMG of some sort for .44 rounds, the Rifle tree could really use some sort of carbine, and the machine gun tree could add in some sort of alternate tactical rifle, though I'm not sure of the best way to make such a weapon interesting.

[Syphon583]

On 9/8/2023 at 11:51 AM, alexbyrd2 said:

If that was the case the shouldn't the tac rifle fall under the machine gunner skill?

It is governed by Machine Gunner, though. Right? Am I crazy?

[Old Crow]

On 9/8/2023 at 10:51 AM, alexbyrd2 said:

But the problem with treating the tac rifle as a stepping stone for the m60 is that it's an entirely different skill tree. If that was the case the shouldn't the tac rifle fall under the machine gunner skill?

 

 

 

It DOES fall under the machine gunner skill.

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Syphon583 said:

It is governed by Machine Gunner, though. Right? Am I crazy?

 

You are not crazy, at least in regards to this.  You might want to get tested though  😏

 

Pipe Machine gun, Tac Rifle, AK47, and Machine Gun are all under Machine Gunner Skill

[BFT2020]

For everyone's knowledge (that don't know already)

 

To see what perks affect what items, look at the tags for that item

 

<<item name="gunMGT2TacticalAR">
	<property name="Tags" value="weapon,ranged,holdBreathAiming,reloadPenalty,gun,barrelAttachments,sideAttachments,smallTopAttachments,mediumTopAttachments,stock,magazine,drumMagazine,firingMode,bottomAttachments,attFortitude,perkMachineGunner,perkBookAutoWeapons,canHaveCosmetic,attachmentsIncluded,machinegunSkill"/><!-- attachmentsIncluded -->

So the Tac Rifle is affected by the Machine Gunner perk and the AutoWeapons books.  You can also tell what types of attachments work with weapon.

 

Edit:  Oops, that was A19 code, I got too many tabs opened right now in NotePad++

Edited September 12, 2023 by BFT2020 (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

I'm not sure why there's confusion about whether or not the TAR is affected by Machine Gunner or not. It's in the same crafting line of magazines as the M60, and that line literally tells you which perk to put points into if you want a higher chance of finding machinegun parts and machinegun magazines.