[Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow]

4 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Interesting idea, but I think it takes away those that want the thrill of finding a Q6 item while looting.

 

I been thinking of having different weapons based on how they were obtained:

• Looted weapons - variable stats to indicate the variety you find, maybe even limit the number of mod slots to 3 (to indicate not being properly maintained).
• Crafted weapons - all mod slots open, variability limited to average to max
• Purchased Trader weapons - all mod slots open, expensive, max stats

However, these are tied to my mod which doesn't allow you to repair items so my thought process is that you can't always have the best weapon as eventually that weapon will wear down and my character after day 37 is not flushed with dukes.

The thrill of finding an AWESOME GUN would be just replaced by finding the SUPER HIGH QUALITY GUN PART! to craft the Q6 item.

The whole point of the idea is to have the crafting be viable for end game while not taking away the SICK loot! 🥵

[Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

Oh good. It is. Individual features are not grand scheme. Grand scheme is “Player progression” and then the details of how the players progress can change and evolve all while keeping the grand scheme. We have had player progression since A11 and we always will because that and quests are the grand scheme for this hybrid genre game to have RPG elements noted in the roadmap for development. You look at an individual puzzle piece and think that is the whole puzzle. LBD was just method for character progression. We don’t have LBD any more (mostly) but we still do have character progression. Grand scheme maintained!

 

Looting is a key aspect of this game and it always has been. There is no getting around that fact. 
 

Also….falling behind whom or what? Who or what are you racing?

 

Does your buddy not feed you books now in A20?  It will be the same. If you are perking into different weapons than your buddy why would he want to read thiose magazines rather than bring them to you?

 

Incorrect. Skill points are not tied to looting. Only crafting recipes are tied to looting. Your loot hog buddy would have to be an idiot to read magazines for things he was not perked into and you were. Even if he did it would only mean that he would craft that item for you and give it to you. Most likely if you aren’t looting at all in A20 you are being given weapons that are found that you have perked into anyway so not much of a change. 
 

That’s up to the new player. You think new players on mature servers aren’t already being given permission to gear up out of fully stocked crates?  If they care about earning it on their own then they’ll refuse. If they don’t then they won’t. 

 

These problems don’t exist anywhere but in the fears and worries you’ve concocted about something you haven’t even tried yet— except your loot hogging buddies. They apparently exist and you can take care of that right now with a new server password…

 

There is no pidgeon holing with the magazines. They simply are the means for access to crafting recipes. Nothing more. You can still freely choose where to spend your points and you still gain those points by doing activities like building and mining.

 

Look Nostradamus, your vision is clouded at best. You don’t have all the variables and I had to correct you on how the magazines are even going to work.  I get your concern but you’re going to need to try it.

 

Thats a nope. A new player might have a tough time learning new recipes but they would have zero problems skilling up. Skilling up is still governed by xp gained by mining, harvesting, building, killing, trading, etc. just like in A20.

 

Maybe he can ask in global chat if anyone will make him a blue stone axe since he can’t craft one himself while he skills himself up normally. Or maybe (since he doesn’t know anyone on that server anyway) he can find and join a more appropriate one. 

 

 

 

First off thank you for thoroughly respond to my post. That is very much appreciated.

 

I do know books only give crafting skill points and that they are completely separated in the update. Your crafting character skill progression will still be effected.

 

I hope that we'll see the change where books will be a bonus. Normal leveling covers the two main playstyles, Settling (Building, Farming, Gathering, Crafting and Cooking) and Adventuring (Looting, Questing, Hunting) giving the same progression opportunities to both. The Learn By Looting system (where it's projected to be) puts the Settling player at a awkward position where if you spend a lot of time working on your base or doing the other things that settlers do that's a lot of time not gaining crafting points. 

 

I do see a reason to have the separation of perk and crafting points to allow for more freedom to build your character but I do think the Learn by Looting system over shoots the goal. Note: I have suggested the separation of skill points before and I approve of that aspect of the change.

 

"You think new players on mature servers aren’t already being given permission to gear up out of fully stocked crates?"

That's a whole different can of worms.

 

I think you need to convey the players to not cheat themselves out of good experience. I have thought about the idea of level locking higher tier weapons (and armor) so you won't be able to use the best of the best when you get into a game with your geared to the teeth friend. He'll have to just give you a high durability pipe weapon with a lot of ammo.

 

I also think that a level 6 durability (or just put a star where the 6* would be) weapon should be a crafted only item. It would be crafted with a rare and valuable item and would make every gun balanced to the highest tier gun. It would be possible with the new crafting system and would give more variety than just the singular end game weapon. You'd have your rare loot and something special at the end of the crafting tree. You can't ignore crafting and just buy the gun. You'd have to buy or loot the rare item then craft the best for whatever weapon you want. The lower level player would be able to use a normally crafted durability 5 pipe gun but not the durability 6* pipe gun that's a separate crafted item.

 

Learn by Doing should come back for some combat perks like they have it in the Undead Legacy mod. You still have your perks but you can add a bonus on top by using the respective weapon.

[Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow]

28 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

I just want to highlight this as it's relevant to something I said earlier.

I mentioned the water thing being unecessary when TFP could just make a cooking pot required to boil water, and then make the pot hard to get (like loot only, or get a forge and make one). Laz_Man brought up how this could be problematic on MP, I assume due to the locust-like nature of players on MP servers looting absolutely EVERYTHING.

The Learn By Looting system will have the same issue. A completely new player, who likely doesn't know anyone on the server, would have an awful time levelling their skills as most POI's near the starting location will be absolutely picked clean.

 

It's Learn By Questing at that point. 😅

 

If anything questing and quest rewards will help out a little with the Learn by Looting system. Maybe after you completing a quest you can choose what magazine you get along with the normal quest reward.  

 

41 minutes ago, maxousara said:

Here we go again. Bandits are (ENNEMI) not possible to deal with team or buy something with them. They're not like a trader they're ENNEMI. There objectif is to KILL the players not deal with him.

 

They are planning on having factions and loyalties. Duke vs. White River. All though they might be just enemies now they maybe be another thing in the future when they role out the story.

[Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow]

10 hours ago, POCKET951 said:

 

I don't get why people perceive alot of these changes in A21 as a waste of dev time? who are you to quantify what is productive and what is not. I am glad they are working on all these things

Well probably because you don't know that they flip flop on a lot of these little changes and It's seems like they have been figuring stuff out with trial and error. I would like them to have their game design mapped out with some forethought, synergy and a grand scheme.

 

Examples: Learn by looting

 

1. Having the players only means of leveling up crafting is by looting. That would make it where if you aren't going into buildings at the get go you'll be falling behind.

 

2. In multiplayer maybe you're buddy would be left behind to build the base while you go looting. (Happens a lot in my playthroughs ) That means that the person that's searching through poi is getting crafting levels while you get nothing when your doing base building stuff. So the looter has the crafting levels and the base builder doesn't... There is only so much magazines to go around when you guys are looting. Having more player in one POI would spread the magazine loot thin which will be a negative to your player progression.

 

3. Tying skill points to loot makes it really hard to play with a loot hog. You would have to rely on your friends generosity to get magazines for you when he might want to use them too.

 

4. When a new player to the map comes into a matured server you have everybody giving him magazines trying to boost his crafting level up. If they have been playing long enough they probably have enough magazines to get you to max level. Some part of the pleaser in getting a reward is earning it. 

 

5. Why not just tie this stuff in with leveling and avoid all of these problems? Just have the magazines be a rare bonuses. 

 

6. Having a RNG bonus on stuff you perk into can influence a build that you didn't really want to go for. It adds to the pigeonholing that were getting with the current perk tree.

 

I have the forethought to think of these situations that WILL happen if Learn by Looting comes out. I don't have to play the update to learn how it will effect gameplay because I have a vision of how it will play out. 

 

All because they want to add something shiny in the loot cycle. Sorry but I attribute that to a lack of forethought.

 

It's not only a waste of dev time but it's a disruptive change that has little reward. Hopefully they'll make it a rare bonus. 

 

10 hours ago, POCKET951 said:

who are you 

I'm Zombiepoptard

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

1 hour ago, schwanz9000 said:

What other hazards do we have other than fire?

WIP, you'll have to wait and see.

Are the bandits going to have there own town and shops?

They will have their own POI's, yes.

Is player armor going to be an all in one item? (that would be dope so you could switch it out much quicker) find all the pieces to craft your uniform. easy to control the look on devs end. ( hide helmet option?)

WIP, you'll have to wait and see.

Is there going to be a boss bandit that would shoot rockets!!?

No.

Are bandits going to have there own man made area in the wasteland? What are the POI guys building?

Maybe? POI's.

What are the two new quest types?

WIP, you'll have to wait and see.

Have they fixed the head pop off when you shoot zombie Steve's head? 

Yes.

What are the First Person animators doing?
Animating.

Thank you for responding to my post. I guess we'll wait for a stream so the big honchos can reveal the more interesting features. Hopefully that'll be soon.  

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

The new way of getting water isn't that interesting compared to Bandits, new player model, environmental hazards, dismemberment system and new quest types. The things that we have front and center is a learn by looting system that absolutely is a glorified tweak and waste of dev time. Also a water fix and tweak of how you can get drinkable water.  

 

What other hazards do we have other than fire?

 

Are the bandits going to have there own town and shops?

 

Is player armor going to be an all in one item? (that would be dope so you could switch it out much quicker) find all the pieces to craft your uniform. easy to control the look on devs end. ( hide helmet option?)

 

Is there going to be a boss bandit that would shoot rockets!!?

 

Are bandits going to have there own man made area in the wasteland? What are the POI guys building?

 

What are the two new quest types?

 

Have they fixed the head pop off when you shoot zombie Steve's head? 

 

What are the First Person animators doing? 

 

 

 

 

[Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow]

6 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

No, I understand, but that still wouldn't make sense if the pipe was not connected to a "pipeline" of sorts connected to a gas tank or something like that.

What I mean is that IMO you should need more than just the "pipe block" alone if you want to shoot it and activate the fire hazard.

Fire should only come out of the pipe if the block is connected to a "gas source" (be it a tank or an underground pipeline").

The red pipes would always be the gas pipes in a poi. what else would they be?

[Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

I didn't see that. No one from the dev team said hazards are more than just props which spew out flames.

If you have read something differently, could you link me to the source, please? Thank you

I see where you're confused. "you should be able to shoot it and make a hazard yourself" meaning you should be able to shoot the pipe and activate the fire hazard.

[Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow]

41 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

That would be great. But I already see some issues for the devs. To ensure the gas leak is coming from "somewhere" you'd need to be sure that the pipe you're shooting is connected to some source. Otherwise, you can have a single "pipe block" that can become a hazard even without being connected to a source of gas.

 

As you can see, this can easily become a can of worms... how would you solve this issue?

They already deal with that issue when they put the hazard in the game. I think every red pipe would be connected to gas. 

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

For the environmental hazards we should be able to interact with these hazards not only as a level obstacle but as a gameplay feature that is more dynamic and manipulatable. You should be able to turn the valve back on if you think that zombies will be running through the doorway that the flames would be blocking off. If you find a red pipe you should be able to shoot it and make a hazard yourself. These are just an example but I think applying intractability to a lot of deco would play to this games sandbox strengths. I mean heck lights can't even be shot out for stealth gameplay. You have to destroy the whole lamp to shut it off. Light switch, one tap and that's all I'm going to say.  

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

Every time I get back into the game the sway of the first person hands instantly irritates me. The way the first person hands bob is janky. It makes me feel like I'm dragging them along with my cross hair. Reduce the inertia or make it so we can turn it off. Doing this would make the first person view tighter and crisp. My #1 issue not kidding

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

2 minutes ago, POCKET951 said:

isn't water also a voxel in minecraft?

 

Unlike Minecraft water the new 7 Days to Die water can share a square with certain voxels. (If I'm not mistaken)

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

11 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Not. another. drop. of. information.

 

You could say they're fishing for some more info. 

[Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow]

5 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

You already clearly expressed your opinion several times in a row now... no need to spam-posting. 

 

Also, as I said before, people who don't want to go looting when looting is an integral part of the game should rethink why they bought the game in the first place.

 

"Yes, but building is also an integral part of the game!" - True, but wanting to level up just by staying in the same place crafting and building, while at the same time not exploring/fighting/looting when you're in a survival-apocalypse-sandbox game, doesn't make much sense to me.

Sorry for being long winded but I have to hammer in how bad this update is going to be if not changed.

 

What does it matter to you if both ways are legitimate forms of leveling crafting? Just make it part of leveling up and still have the magazines to incentivize looting. Acting like looting is the only integral part of the game by having crafting only level up through loot is bad.

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

I'm puzzled on the only way to level your crafting is through looting magazines which wrestles players choice out of our hand and into a gimmicky RNG system. It would make more sense if they had different crafting skill points to level up what ever you wanted in the crafting tree and have magazines be bonuses. 

 

Making the magazines the main way to gain crafting brings unwanted attention to this update. It should be an added bonus not a big feature. You guys need to keep your ideas practical. This game is awesome because there are multiple ways of playing it but it seems like our choices of doing what we want are getting punished with the crafting update. Loot buildings or you won't progress is obviously flawed.  Loot, build, protect, explore, hunt, farm and mine are the various of thing we do in 7 day to die. We don't need to be funneled into looting building to get most of our progression.

 

Having a separate tab for crafting is a good way to expand players choices but RNG magazines cancel the positives out. What do you guys want to achieve with this update and are you seeing the variables that the update will cause?

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

So the solution is trading magazine size/reload speed for higher damage?

 

I can see why there is a choice in Agility because there the different weapons are really different. I don't see why I would have a significant choice with that. But don't mind me, I'm not the one who decides anyway. I like your underground bunker idea by the way.

 

 

I guess that choice idea thing could get lost in specifics but I want the character building system to be more robust.

 

I'm glad you mentioned my bunker idea because I think that was the best spit ball I had in that clump up spit balls. It's would make things easier on the poi builders to create challenging fun levels just meant for gameplay and not recognizable city esthetics. I would like multiple pathways you could take like vents or sewer systems to ad to the stealthy prospective of the game.  They could have the freedom to make anything that they wanted with traps and the key/button system they put in to alpha 20. It would be mostly bandits with some special infected sprinkled in.

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

What should 4 barrels do? When an autoshotgun (with a massive damage output) already has a magazine size of 16? And that super one barrel shotgun sounds like it is just about damage, right? 😉

 

 

 

 

 

 

Faster reload speed for a gun that would have you reloading every single shot or double down on damage. I would like to see both choices play out.

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Hm.. kinda yes but... I think screamer figure could be better. Honestly i wish i could buy screamer and spider zombie figure

7 barrel pistol. so.... yep 4 barrel shotgun can work 

 

Roland you are genious! zombie plant! i mean - zombie overgrown  by plants! ( idk how my logic work but i still want TFP game about vampires XD)

 

 

 

There we go! What every they want to put in the game the point is to broaden the choices for end game across all the systems via skills and weapons.

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

5 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

You mean more than the zero tier 4 weapons it has now? 😁

 

(Official nomenclature has weapon tiers starting from tier0 which makes the best weapons now tier3)

 

There are supposed to be legendary weapons eventually which would add a lot of variation to end-game weapons

 

 

I doubt that another tier 3 shotgun would add as much to the game as the work needed to implement it. Maybe tell us your idea what other sort of shotgun they could add and how that really would change gameplay when the absolutely most important stat of a gun is damage, and the second most damage as well.

 

 

 

To be more specific I don't want another tier. I'm talking about having more tier 3 weapons and not extending the ceiling for us to inevitably reach in under a week. 

 

Look at Killing Floor 2 and how they manage to make a leveling system that isn't just based solely off damage. Depends what weapon you use as well.

 

Maybe a more inventive shotgun that has 4 barrels or a super one barrel shotgun that you'd probably want the perk to reload fast. Just an example off the top of my head. I'm sure they could think of something better since this is their job. Having just one very strong weapon would get pretty boring after a while of playing one build that you'd have to spend huge amounts of dukes to spec out of.

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

It would be cool if we had endgame bunker dungeons that could change into completely different pois when you quest them. They'd be underground so it wouldn't be as immersion breaking when they transform. It would provide a stream of fresh repeatable content. Lot's of bandit made challenge potential. Traps and what have you. All designed to have fun and no compromises on level design to make it look like a place that exists today.

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

There should be more tier 4 weapons because that's were people will spend most of their time in the game. This game has been thriving off of pure creativity on how you can build your bases. I think if we observed the depth of the end game without the base building it would paint a bleak picture. We've been riding along this pretty liner progression system for a while that once we hit tear 4 weapons we look at base building for our only satisfying form of progression. Open the game up to a whole bunch of new horizontal progression stuff for us to stay entertained when we arrive at end game. 

9 minutes ago, Lord Morphleyes said:

 

You obviously have never cleared a house in this game with an auto shotgun. 

 

To that point, it's there a way to REDUCE the block damage of the shotgun without buffing all blocks from player damage?  I am very limited in my shotgun use in POI clearing do the the damage it does to walls, floors, bookshelves...

I had ragdolling zombies flying through walls on my mind when I said that.

 

They should make ammo that doesn't hurt blocks. Only craftable though.

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

The combat in this game should be more destructive and exaggerated. I don't thing that this games strengths are in combat and I don't expect it to compete with realistic shooters but it shouldn't feel under whelming and or safe. In alpha17 I remember hitting zombies with the sledge hammer and watching them fly! That was pretty awesome as well as stratifying. What would make it more satisfying is if they flew through a wall on charge attacks or close up short barrel shotgun blasts. buildings on quests should look like a bomb went of when finishing them, not only from the zombies but from the destruction the player can cause as well . Play to your strengths and think big. 

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

The skills need more depth and more choices. Give every skill rank up a option of 2 choices. Example would be how Killing Floor 2 does there perk options. 5 rank ups 10 choices. That way you could have unique and more diverse character builds that you can mix and match to see what you like. Instead of having generic make weapon more powerful perk that do nothing in the way of making the game more rich. 

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

8 minutes ago, Firecat said:

 

Have you been to the wasteland? If you mean the green dude with the bubbly top who looks like a mutated asparagus with limbs, he is ALL OVER the place in the wasteland. Spits at you like a cop and is super annoying.

no any special infected

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

I've been playing for 8hr where the H E double hockey sticks is the special infected? I want to see at least one in every quest. 

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

7 hours ago, Roland said:

They were told the same as I've said here that this weekend is looking good and hasn't been ruled out and we will know for sure as soon as Rick makes the official announcement. They've decided to hedge their bets and possibly get first scoop. If it turns out to be true then they win and if it turns out to be next weekend then...oopsie!!

 

 

 

 

I would delay it just for that.