Trader rewards, additional dukes option

[GuardianReaper0]

When getting rewards from the trader, both early and late game, there is often times when the 5 reward options just really aren’t worthwhile. 
 

As a decent alternative, I think that an additional payout of dukes would be a solid option. 

[Suxar]

If you are not satisfied with the reward, then just do not do the quests. The main thing in the quest is the reset of the POI.

[GuardianReaper0]

6 hours ago, Suxar said:

If you are not satisfied with the reward, then just do not do the quests. The main thing in the quest is the reset of the POI.

Matter of opinion. 
 

For me, the loot on site is a nice addition, but getting more worthwhile stuff from trader is nice too. The skill book bundles, and other bundles for that matter, are great. However, when it gets to things like 5000 gas (we have 80 or so compound stacks at base), a skill book I already have, a single antibiotic (30+ at base and rarely get infected), or 150 rounds of 7.62 (I have 2 steel crates full at base).

 

The option of additional dukes is there to keep it worthwhile, not just use it as a way to reset POI.

[Suxar]

37 minutes ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

or me, the loot on site is a nice addition, but getting more worthwhile stuff from trader is nice too. The skill book bundles, and other bundles for that matter, are great. However, when it gets to things like 5000 gas (we have 80 or so compound stacks at base), a skill book I already have, a single antibiotic (30+ at base and rarely get infected), or 150 rounds of 7.62 (I have 2 steel crates full at base).

This is all done easily and quickly. 5000 fuel is just 1 stack of shale, which is mined in 5-10 minutes with a pickaxe. Antibiotic? Well, I don't know what to do with honey from the trees, the antibiotic is not particularly critical. And I don't see the point in saving up ammo. It won’t take long to make special ones, fortunately you can accumulate resources quickly enough, but there are already enough ordinary ones. The only useful thing the merchant has is a set of books. Yes, and only until the middle of the game, then they are no longer needed.

45 minutes ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

The option of additional dukes is there to keep it worthwhile, not just use it as a way to reset POI.

And where to put them? I already make shells out of them. They are needed at the beginning of the game, but by the middle of the game there are more than enough of them.

[GuardianReaper0]

1 hour ago, Suxar said:

This is all done easily and quickly. 5000 fuel is just 1 stack of shale, which is mined in 5-10 minutes with a pickaxe. Antibiotic? Well, I don't know what to do with honey from the trees, the antibiotic is not particularly critical. And I don't see the point in saving up ammo. It won’t take long to make special ones, fortunately you can accumulate resources quickly enough, but there are already enough ordinary ones. The only useful thing the merchant has is a set of books. Yes, and only until the middle of the game, then they are no longer needed.

And where to put them? I already make shells out of them. They are needed at the beginning of the game, but by the middle of the game there are more than enough of them.

Not every suggestion has to benefit end tier play, so I would appreciate if you would stop trying to shoot down my posts for that reason. 
 

The early and mid tiers would benefit from this greatly, as not everyone is set up to be “THE trader”, and puts points elsewhere too.

[Suxar]

14 hours ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

The early and mid tiers would benefit from this greatly, as not everyone is set up to be “THE trader”, and puts points elsewhere too.

Your suggestions are designed to make the game easier for the merchant.
The one who pumps perception has a very developed search and gets almost everything in the loot.
The one who pumps strength has tons of fossil resources and wood.
Those who pump up stamina are very durable and have tons of food from the garden.
Agility is essentially stealth. You cut out crowds of enemies without being noticed, almost without spending consumables.
And they all have a lot of things for sale that allow you to earn a lot of money without buying anything.

[GuardianReaper0]

11 hours ago, Suxar said:

Your suggestions are designed to make the game easier for the merchant.
The one who pumps perception has a very developed search and gets almost everything in the loot.
The one who pumps strength has tons of fossil resources and wood.
Those who pump up stamina are very durable and have tons of food from the garden.
Agility is essentially stealth. You cut out crowds of enemies without being noticed, almost without spending consumables.
And they all have a lot of things for sale that allow you to earn a lot of money without buying anything.

No, my ideas are designed to bring more variety to the game for the most part.

[Suxar]

13 hours ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

No, my ideas are designed to bring more variety to the game for the most part.

I don't see any variety. You're just suggesting increasing the reward for merchant quests. In general, he should have a minimal impact on the game. At the moment, too many players are fixated on quests, ignoring everything else.

[GuardianReaper0]

6 hours ago, Suxar said:

I don't see any variety. You're just suggesting increasing the reward for merchant quests. In general, he should have a minimal impact on the game. At the moment, too many players are fixated on quests, ignoring everything else.

The variety comes from what you get as “reward”. You can very well choose one of the items they are trying to give you, or you can take the extra dukes and buy what you want with them as your “reward”. 
 

One of my buddies and I started fresh again (he is new and wanted to experience start and mid game, and I wanted to experience a random gen map).

 

Water is rough when getting started. I built the few collectors and explained we needed the mods to make them better, but they cost a fair bit at the trader. As he noted, “why isn’t that one of the rewards”? 
If we could choose extra dukes, rather than items we need half as bad, we would be able to get those without doing so many missions and relying so heavily on that part of play. They would essentially BE the rewards at that point.

[Suxar]

5 minutes ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

Water is rough when getting started. I built the few collectors and explained we needed the mods to make them better, but they cost a fair bit at the trader. As he noted, “why isn’t that one of the rewards”? 

Why mods? We run into the first few houses, look at what's in the kitchen, find a pot, return to the base, make a Campfire for 5 stones, put the pot in there, boil water.

 

The filter is already the middle of the game.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

The variety comes from what you get as “reward”. You can very well choose one of the items they are trying to give you, or you can take the extra dukes and buy what you want with them as your “reward”. 

 

You get dukes already for any quest and can get more by selling stuff, including the rewards you don't want.

 

So how much should the extra dukes reward be?

A) Less or equal to what you would get from selling the most expensive reward choice ? In that case it would just save you the few clicks to select and sell the most expensive reward. Yeah, nice comfort function, but nothing you couldn't do yourself already.

B) More than what you would get from selling the most expensive reward choice ? Then you would certainly change the game balance and make it easier. But again I don't see any additional variety, except that you can buy stuff earlier.

 

Edited August 28 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Riamus]

4 hours ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

The variety comes from what you get as “reward”. You can very well choose one of the items they are trying to give you, or you can take the extra dukes and buy what you want with them as your “reward”. 
 

One of my buddies and I started fresh again (he is new and wanted to experience start and mid game, and I wanted to experience a random gen map).

 

Water is rough when getting started. I built the few collectors and explained we needed the mods to make them better, but they cost a fair bit at the trader. As he noted, “why isn’t that one of the rewards”? 
If we could choose extra dukes, rather than items we need half as bad, we would be able to get those without doing so many missions and relying so heavily on that part of play. They would essentially BE the rewards at that point.

Dukes are already a possible reward, at least at certain tiers (not sure which ones as I've never cared to look).  I only ever choose that option if nothing else is worth it because dukes are rarely worth it.  Rewards are random from among the possible rewards.  None are guaranteed and I see no reason that dukes should be guaranteed either.  You will already earn dukes from completing the quest, so a guaranteed option for more dukes isn't necessary.

 

Dukes are easy to get.  If you're struggling, add in Daring Adventurer so you earn more from quests.  No need to have dukes always be an option.  It isn't "variety" if a specific reward is always available.  That is the opposite of variety.  Variety is having different rewards each time, which is what we have.  Getting dukes every time so you can buy anything you want isn't variety.

 

As far as dew collectors, you can usually get by fine with 1 per person unless you're crafting a ton with glue, once you have the mods installed.  That makes those mods quite powerful.  They shouldn't be cheap or freely given as rewards.  Altogether, it's under 10k for all 3 for one dew collector.  I can usually buy all 3 before or about the time I finish tier 1 quests.  That's fast enough and easy enough.  And you don't even need them.  If you want to save the money, just build more dew collectors and boil the water.

 

Just play the game, loot, do quests, mine, etc.  You'll get what you need quickly enough.  You shouldn't have everything in the first week.

 

As a side note, if you always get the 5000 dukes option as a reward, that's almost always more than the cost of buying any of the other rewards, so why would you take the other rewards instead of just taking the dukes and buying them (if they are available)?  That would defeat the purpose of having other rewards.  So, once again, you lose the "variety" that we already have.

Edited August 28 by Riamus (see edit history)

[GuardianReaper0]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

You get dukes already for any quest and can get more by selling stuff, including the rewards you don't want.

 

So how much should the extra dukes reward be?

A) Less or equal to what you would get from selling the most expensive reward choice ? In that case it would just save you the few clicks to select and sell the most expensive reward. Yeah, nice comfort function, but nothing you couldn't do yourself already.

B) More than what you would get from selling the most expensive reward choice ? Then you would certainly change the game balance and make it easier. But again I don't see any additional variety, except that you can buy stuff earlier.

 

I would say it would depend on the tier and type of mission. Just as it does with main payout. 
That said, the other rewards should be more in line with that too. I can’t begin to tell you how frustrating it is to see a reward from a t6 mission being 5 glue. The SAME option as I’ve gotten at T1!

 

 

5 hours ago, Suxar said:

Why mods? We run into the first few houses, look at what's in the kitchen, find a pot, return to the base, make a Campfire for 5 stones, put the pot in there, boil water.

 

The filter is already the middle of the game.

Everyone has their own way of playing. My buddy, who is the host for our game (Xbox) is struggling with a bug that is still being sorted out for example, that makes melee and even some ranged combat very difficult for the host. So instead he’s taking care of stuff at base and leaving the scavenging, fighting, etc to me.

 

The same could be said if players are playing with others that aren’t the best at the game, and perhaps die a lot, which could also burn through supplies.

[Suxar]

12 hours ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

My buddy, who is the host for our game (Xbox) is struggling with a bug that is still being sorted out for example, that makes melee and even some ranged combat very difficult for the host.

This is the first time I've heard that a host has problems with close combat. These are always problems for clients, they are related to network packet latency. If I'm a host, then as a rule, my bandages accumulate, if I'm a client, then they are spent, sometimes I even have to make them.

13 hours ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

That said, the other rewards should be more in line with that too. I can’t begin to tell you how frustrating it is to see a reward from a t6 mission being 5 glue. The SAME option as I’ve gotten at T1!

 

For level 6 you get 3000 to 6000 dukes guaranteed depending on the type of task. For the first one from 100 to 400.
I can't call it the same reward.

[GuardianReaper0]

5 hours ago, Suxar said:

This is the first time I've heard that a host has problems with close combat. These are always problems for clients, they are related to network packet latency. If I'm a host, then as a rule, my bandages accumulate, if I'm a client, then they are spent, sometimes I even have to make them.

For level 6 you get 3000 to 6000 dukes guaranteed depending on the type of task. For the first one from 100 to 400.
I can't call it the same reward.

I’m not talking about the initial cash payout reward, I’m talking about the “item reward” that you choose. As I said before (idk if you actually read it or not), I had the option of 5 glue pop up as a reward not both t6 and t1 missions. 
 

You asked previously if the additional dukes option would be made equal to the highest value item (if you were to just sell it). This is my response:

- The quality of item reward needs to be fair according to the quality of mission completed. 
 

- When I am seeing reward options on t6 missions that are the same as t1 missions, there is a problem.

 

- If the quality of reward items fit the tier of the mission better, then their value would be higher as well, making the idea of selling the highest value one actually worthwhile. 
 

So ultimately either the rewards need to include an extra dukes option, OR, just better item options than what there currently is for higher tiers.

[Suxar]

14 minutes ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

- The quality of item reward needs to be fair according to the quality of mission completed. 
 

- When I am seeing reward options on t6 missions that are the same as t1 missions, there is a problem.

This already happened, literally in A21. As a result, everyone leveled up through intelligence and no one created anything. And why, if for quests you received weapons and tools of level 6. In the network game, no one even bought weapons from anyone, since everyone received them from the merchant.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

I’m not talking about the initial cash payout reward, I’m talking about the “item reward” that you choose. As I said before (idk if you actually read it or not), I had the option of 5 glue pop up as a reward not both t6 and t1 missions. 
 

You asked previously if the additional dukes option would be made equal to the highest value item (if you were to just sell it). This is my response:

- The quality of item reward needs to be fair according to the quality of mission completed. 
 

- When I am seeing reward options on t6 missions that are the same as t1 missions, there is a problem.

 

- If the quality of reward items fit the tier of the mission better, then their value would be higher as well, making the idea of selling the highest value one actually worthwhile. 
 

So ultimately either the rewards need to include an extra dukes option, OR, just better item options than what there currently is for higher tiers.

 

This is a design decision. Do you make the item rewards (which are ON TOP of XP and dukes) really random just like the loot you find everywhere or do you make sure that each option increases with POI difficulty. There are better rewards in the bag the better the POI is, but since the low rewards are not filtered out, you get a truly random result, which may have only duds in it.

 

The developers had it in previous alphas (not only A21) just like you wanted, but the trader rewards were also much too good. Now they balanced it down and you are not the only one who protested this. But the overall balance is much better now. But there will be many many further balance changes in the coming year, maybe this will be adjusted again.

 

Psychologically the problem may be that we tend to overlook the xp and duke rewards because they are just some numbers in a line above. We all look at the rewards lottery and always want there to be something good. But IMHO it can't be every time, the game has a limited amount of stuff to distribute that you would need. If the trader always gives you good stuff, you won't be able to loot or craft stuff you need as you get everything from the trader already. Been there, done that.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

On 8/25/2024 at 11:39 AM, GuardianReaper0 said:

the 5 reward options just really aren’t worthwhile. 

No, they're not. So, why are they there? Just to point people to POIs they'll see anyway and perhaps be intrigued by enough to enter/clear on their own? They'll very likely do that on their own eventually if not immediately. None of them are hiding anything unique, e.g. a named weapon or unique quest or word wall, for example. I've seen one named weapon in the game, but have no idea who Taza is supposed to be and it was pretty worthless anyway. So, maybe something more unique for the odd jobs had been planned at some point, but even army outposts are generally peppered with generic loot that can be found absolutely anywhere else. I've never seen a more RNG heavy game.

The odd jobs, of course, are a variation on the mindless "radiant quests" I could personally do without in any game and that has taken over video games at large. If they're going to be there, though, the rewards for the odd jobs themselves should be worthwhile and they were already pretty well balanced in A21, imo, in that a slightly better tool than one could yet make, for example, essentially acted as an incentive for the player to engage with the other systems to craft even better items themselves, etc. 

I don't think extra dukes would be a decent alternative, as you say. I think the "alternative" is more akin to the incentivizing reward system already in place in A21. Players who would rather engage with the other systems exclusively still could. They don't have to take higher tier weapons and tools and gear as rewards. That decision and the discipline to stick to it is entirely up to them. Min-maxers probably always would, but still, that's entirely on them and no one else. The only thing about it that stands out to me personally right now is that pretty much everyone is going to blitz through those tier 1 "quests" as fast as humanly possible just to get their hands on a bicycle because being on foot in an enormous game world that harbors nothing of interest outside POI filled towns is simply not fun. In between, there's nothing but ground to cover.

It actually pains me to see so many comments in the vein of "people weren't doing this" and "people were doing that" in a game that is supposedly designed to be as play-your-way as possible. Who is anyone to dictate how everyone else is going to play?

Edited August 29 by InfiniteWarrior
Spelling and grammar (see edit history)

[GuardianReaper0]

My point in regards to the rewards from later tier missions is that it either needs to be something valuable, a large quantity of supplies (like glue for example), or extra dukes. 
 

If it’s going to give things like coal, glue, cement, etc, it should at least be at an amount more suitable to the tier.

[Suxar]

5 hours ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

If it’s going to give things like coal, glue, cement, etc, it should at least be at an amount more suitable to the tier.

If you need coal or cement, then take a pickaxe and dig it up. It's faster and more efficient. Why are you so hung up on quests? It's one aspect of the game, not the whole game.

If it makes sense to give cement, then for the first levels of quests, when it's very difficult to get something without normal tools, at the last levels it's not a reward, but a mockery.

[GuardianReaper0]

6 hours ago, Suxar said:

If you need coal or cement, then take a pickaxe and dig it up. It's faster and more efficient. Why are you so hung up on quests? It's one aspect of the game, not the whole game.

If it makes sense to give cement, then for the first levels of quests, when it's very difficult to get something without normal tools, at the last levels it's not a reward, but a mockery.

Early on it’s a rare resource, later on it’s a resource that takes time to acquire in bulk. Late stages I would be elated to get a 1000-3000 stack of concrete mix. That would save a lot of extra time, and not require me to put even more forges and mixers at my base (after all screamers tend to frown on industrialization!).

 

Why am I so focused on this? Because I feel like it’s a part of the game that could be improved. Don’t like it? Don’t use it.

[Suxar]

On 8/30/2024 at 5:07 PM, GuardianReaper0 said:

Early on it’s a rare resource

At first it is not really needed, Cobblestone Rocks are quite enough.

On 8/30/2024 at 5:07 PM, GuardianReaper0 said:

Late stages I would be elated to get a 1000-3000 stack of concrete mix.

Why do you need so many? 24-30 stacks are enough for my house, and another 12 for the horde base. Are you building a full-fledged medieval castle there?

[GuardianReaper0]

7 hours ago, Suxar said:

At first it is not really needed, Cobblestone Rocks are quite enough.

Why do you need so many? 24-30 stacks are enough for my house, and another 12 for the horde base. Are you building a full-fledged medieval castle there?

1000-3000 being in a SINGLE stack, not that many stacks, sorry for the confusion!

 

I’ve had it pop up like 100-300 as a reward at high tiers and think the amount should be higher.