[MOD] Better Than Giant Bees: Hardcore Survival

[AUSEntity]

as well as being "scouts" (which I don't think I have any control over in the .xmls, which is too bad as I'd like to tweak that aspect some).

 

The only thing you can really do is change who the scouts are and how many of them there are.

 

In the spawning.xml file there is a section for scouts.

 

<entityspawner name="Scouts" dynamic="true" wrapMode="wrap">
	<day value="*">
		<property name="ResetToday"         value="true" />
		[b]<property name="EntityGroupName"    value="ZombieScouts" />[/b]
		<property name="Time"               value="Any" />
		<property name="DelayBetweenSpawns" value="1" />
		<property name="TotalAlive"         value="3" />
		<property name="TotalPerWave"       value="3" />
	</day>
</entityspawner>

 

In the entitygroups.xml specifies which zombies are in this group.

 

<entitygroup name="ZombieScouts">
	<entity name="spiderzombie" />
</entitygroup>

 

So toying with these could be an interesting aspect to the scouts. Since spider zombies don't scale walls, perhaps the bees? Would fit your MOD's name...

 

I haven't really tried it, just thought I would point it out. Making a large scout group could make those furnace/campfire hungry players a little more worried about their 'heat map'.

[FlowerChild]

The only thing you can really do is change who the scouts are and how many of them there are.

 

Thanks for the heads up, but I'd actually be more interested in changing what the scouts summon rather than what the scouts are. There doesn't seam to be a way to modify that through the .xmls at present.

[FlowerChild]

[**** NEW RELEASE ****]

 

Version 1.35 of Better Than Giant Bees is ready for download!

 

Download Link

 

This release contains the following changes:

 

-Added a small chance of receiving dysentery from drinking boiled water. This can of course be overcome through making goldenrod tea, and was done to make water purification and consumption more of an ongoing concern as the game progresses, and to further differentiate the plains biome.

 

-Added a small chance of food poisoning when eating dog or cat food, making them more of a desperation food item.

 

-Added a cloth drop to bags of various kinds when they are destroyed.

 

-Added a grass drop to nests when they are destroyed.

 

-Added a broken glass drop to windows when they are destroyed.

 

-Changed (rebalanced) how pretty much all the tools and melee weapons are affected by quality level rather extensively. The quality system added in Alpha 11 really messed with their stats and I've tried to make the values a little more reasonable and fit better with the overall progression. Generally, I've toned down the impact quality has on the damage a tool does and emphasized how frequently poor quality tools need to be repaired. Sorry for the delay on this one, but I just reached forging iron tools in my own game which is when I realized things had gotten completely nuts

 

-Changed the can of soup to provide protein and starch buffs instead of vegetable, given the icon for it labels it as chicken soup.

 

-Changed (reduced) the hunger gained from fried and boiled eggs to make them a little more difficult to sustain yourself on alone.

 

-Changed the can of soup stock to provide a vegetable buff instead of protein, since there was already an overabundance of protein items, and since the label makes it ambiguous as to what kind of stock it actually is.

 

-Changed goldenrod tea to provide the same stamina boost as water.

 

-Changed (reduced) the hit point of feral zombies, as they were a tad silly.

 

-Changed the pickaxe recipe to use 3 iron ingots instead of 4 to better match the new visuals.

 

-Changed the sledgehammer to use 4 iron ingots instead of 3, as I've rebalanced the stats to make it a more effective tool/weapon under certain circumstances. It can essentially do massive damage to zombies and some structures (wood & concrete in particular) but at extremely high stamina cost, so it will only really be effective for the healthiest people, and won't be particularly helpful in a prolonged fight. Can't be beat for making a quick entry or dispatching a single zed though.

 

-Changed the craftable cloth hat so that it's better than the skull caps and baseball caps you find at a lower quality level (a good quality one should be superior to the found loot).

 

-Changed lockers to contain more loot overall, and to contain some automative loot (oil, etc.) given the overall rarity of cars in BTGB.

 

-Removed nests from grasslands, burnt forest, and wasteland biomes to further differentiate them and emphasize progression from one biome to the next. They should only be available in non-snowy forests now.

 

-Removed all animals from both the desert and snowy biomes to further emphasize progression and the "dead" vibe of those places. Also removed pigs from the plains biomes, leaving it to only rabbits, for the same reason.

 

-Removed the protein buff from eggs as it made it a little too easy to gain it with such a small item.

 

-Removed the dysentery debuff from goldenrod tea. In other words, the advantage to it now is that you won't get dysentery from it (unlike just boiled water), and it's perfectly safe to drink.

 

-Removed health loss for food poisoning.

 

Enjoy!

[Renegrade]

Ooh nice! New release, installing now (although the boiled water change has me scared hehe).

 

By the way, I saw an interesting post:

 

Loot is moddable, fully, by level and/or quality. It just has yet to be set up in the xml files. But it works so here you go. It may be changed soon to

 

make it easier to setup tons of them but for now this is how it works:

 

<etc>

 

It does into detail about the loot leveling system - it's actually fairly sophisticated. For example, you could set up loot groups by user level, which would limit the quality of found goods to the approximate quality of user-made goods etc (or above or below or whatever you wanted).

 

It can also be used to change what's found in an absolute sense, although that's the "leveled loot" thing neither of us likes~

[FlowerChild]

Ooh nice! New release, installing now (although the boiled water change has me scared hehe).

 

I really like that one a lot actually. Along with me limiting bird nests to non-snowy forests I find it really helps with regards to giving you reason to visit different biomes, and to diversify your activities while there.

 

It's a small change but I think you'll see that it has a decent impact on overall gameplay.

 

I remember in the early versions that one of the things I really like about 7 Days was that there were solid reasons to visit different biomes (like going to deserts to get sand to make concrete) that I hoped would be expanded on with time. Was probably yet another case of me mistakingly seeing intent there, but I'm trying to bring that back regardless

 

It can also be used to change what's found in an absolute sense, although that's the "leveled loot" thing neither of us likes~

 

Actually, I just intensely dislike the whole concept of level affecting the goods you find in any given container, quality included. I don't think the quality problem (in terms of spawning and instantly finding an uber tool or weapon) in vanilla is an issue with the game needing leveled loot, but rather of loot overabundance, biomes being largely monochromatic, and quality having *far* too great an impact on item stats as we discussed previously.

 

So yeah, I tend to view the entire leveled loot thing as "a faulty solution to a nonexistent problem". I just really don't see the need for it in any way shape or form, and I think it brings a whole host of gamey problems to the table along with it.

 

Regardless, as long as I can disable it, and it appears that I can, I'm happy

[Scyris]

Did you happen to put the crossbow back in? Since its now locked behind the forge book and iron ingots.

[FlowerChild]

Did you happen to put the crossbow back in? Since its now locked behind the forge book and iron ingots.

 

Nope. It's still ridiculously overpowered regardless. Once gravity is applied to it like with the wooden bow I'll consider adding it back, but there's really just no need for it in the game right now as the wood bow and blunderbuss fill the early game ranged weapon roles, and modern firearms fill the mid to late.

 

Even before I started working on the mod, I used to consider the crossbow a "cheat" in my own play, and would refuse to use it.

[Renegrade]

Nope. It's still ridiculously overpowered regardless. Once gravity is applied to it like with the wooden bow I'll consider adding it back, but there's really just no need for it in the game right now as the wood bow and blunderbuss fill the early game ranged weapon roles, and modern firearms fill the mid to late.

 

Gravity would be nice for it. I don't see why they didn't do that already... Anyhow, regarding the blunderbuss: I tired it out, and I can't tell if it's any good or not. I was only able to find one gunpowder before I was already deep into the tech tree. :S

 

Also I'm a little nervous about these durability changes. The spikey club isn't too bad (there's lots of nails), but I burned through my metal strip supply in about half a POI of axe-work. Fortunately I found the clay book and was able to make metal strips, although not before being forced to use stone axes again >.<

 

I like the effectiveness change a lot. No more drilling through brick walls with two swings of a purple fireaxe heh.

 

Finally found that book that lets you make wood planks too. Man, that one took forever! Already past day 30

 

(and just to re-iterate, I really like the new 4-foodgroup system. It feels more natural and smooth than the stock system)

 

EDIT: Oh one other thing, I noticed that the fireaxe (even the initial 'poor' level one I had found in that shovel-car) is a viciously effective melee weapon, killing zombies with one headshot.. is it supposed to be like that?

[randor9]

Was wondering what your thoughts were about a stone spear. That is made out of sticks plantfibers and stone. I like modding this game myself and I added the spear model a few days ago. So what kind of stats would you give it. I thought poor=80 durability and 3 hits in the head to kil a zed sinds its longer ranged weapon it must not be to op you know what I mean. (also love you ideas)

[FlowerChild]

Gravity would be nice for it. I don't see why they didn't do that already... Anyhow, regarding the blunderbuss: I tired it out, and I can't tell if it's any good or not. I was only able to find one gunpowder before I was already deep into the tech tree. :S

 

Hehe...I think I survived the day 35 horde, and I still don't know how to put together a modern firearm, so the blunderbuss is my constant companion

 

On the bright side, I finally know how to put together wood frames, so I can fortify far more effectively.

 

Also I'm a little nervous about these durability changes. The spikey club isn't too bad (there's lots of nails), but I burned through my metal strip supply in about half a POI of axe-work. Fortunately I found the clay book and was able to make metal strips, although not before being forced to use stone axes again >.<

 

Honestly, I think I agree with you in terms of the rate at which poor fireaxes and picks burn through metal. I mention below what I was trying to achieve there relative to the hunting knife, but I think I may have overemphasized it and the durability loss should be about half of what it currently is. Will change that for next release.

 

EDIT: Oh one other thing, I noticed that the fireaxe (even the initial 'poor' level one I had found in that shovel-car) is a viciously effective melee weapon, killing zombies with one headshot.. is it supposed to be like that?

 

Yup, that's by intent. It's balanced (hopefully) off the high stamina and repair cost. You'll notice that the hunting knife is actually a more effective weapon if you take the damage per stamina and metal cost of prolonged use into account, so if you're dispatching zeds in large numbers, or if your wellness sucks, the knife is the better way to go. If you're healthy, only taking out a small number of zombies and want to do so quickly, or have an abundance of stimulants on hand, the fireaxe (or even sledgehammer) is likely a better weapon.

 

The sledgehammer is basically a further amplification of that concept, consuming an obscene amount of stamina, but capable of also doing an obscene amount of damage in a single hit, again, less efficient though in damage per stamina than the fireaxe.

 

Now that we're discussing it, I actually wish there was a way I could tweak durability loss depending on what material you're hitting. Like I'd love to be able to retain the current high rate of durability loss while using the fireaxe and other tools as weapons, while reducing it when using the tool vs appropriate materials, such as wood for the axe. I suspect one of the reasons you burned through metal so quickly is that you were using the axe as a weapon, and that's an aspect I'd like to keep if it were possible.

 

Was wondering what your thoughts were about a stone spear. That is made out of sticks plantfibers and stone. I like modding this game myself and I added the spear model a few days ago. So what kind of stats would you give it. I thought poor=80 durability and 3 hits in the head to kil a zed sinds its longer ranged weapon it must not be to op you know what I mean. (also love you ideas)

 

Well, I'm not in the habit of critiquing other modders man, and definitely don't go out of my way to do so.

 

Since you're specifically asking for feedback though: I wouldn't add it personally. The Pimps did a great job of making melee dangerous in Alpha 11, by extending the reach of zombies so that every time you get into melee combat with them you risk getting hurt/infected. My worry would be that putting a low-tech longer-reach melee weapon into the game would effectively disable that.

 

I understand that you probably added it because it "makes sense" in real world terms, but that doesn't necessarily make it into a good game feature. For example, in the consensus reality you could imagine zeds possibly grabbing your spear and pulling you into them as a result of using it, but given the game doesn't have such systems, it essentially just becomes an uber weapon that negates any danger to melee combat.

[Renegrade]

Hehe...I think I survived the day 35 horde, and I still don't know how to put together a modern firearm, so the blunderbuss is my constant companion

 

I've been relying on pistols for a while (I found a really nice one a ways back and you can unload the ammo from them by placing them in the output grid, so have been relatively well-equipped for rabbit hunting and emergency oh-crap self-defense), but I put together another blunderbuss and used my advanced technology to disassemble some 10mm bullets for gunpowder and made a dozen rounds for it. I tested it out on some zeds and found it to be a quite effective short-ranged weapon, although it burns through repair strips even at like 250+ quality heh.

 

I still don't have any oil, so eventually the pistol will have to retire (I've been keeping it going by swapping out parts). I'll probably get better blunderbuss usage then.

 

It's definitely better than the stock one though, leaving aside the ammo issue. The stock one might as well just be a funny looking melee weapon heh.

 

On the bright side, I finally know how to put together wood frames, so I can fortify far more effectively.

 

I finally found that book too. I think I have most of the others - the only thing I've tried to do that's lacking recipes is farming (there might be other books still though, just I haven't discovered that I need them yet hehe).

 

It took a lot of what I call 'super-priority looting' to get it. That's basically where I sweep a POI, only looking in places that have medical supplies, iron pipes, and books, and only looting other things in a house if I'm going to overnight it. Fortunately I've been finding a lot of beer, so it's been a slightly tipsy, beer-fueled super-priority loot. I can pretty much hit two large plains POIs in a day using that technique...

 

Honestly, I think I agree with you in terms of the rate at which poor fireaxes and picks burn through metal. I mention below what I was trying to achieve there relative to the hunting knife, but I think I may have overemphasized it and the durability loss should be about half of what it currently is. Will change that for next release.

 

Actually, I like the big difference in durability - it's just really rough when you're scavenging iron pipes to repair your precious 'poor' fireaxe you found in a car full of shovels . Would perhaps increasing the repair value of a metal strip work instead?

 

Now that we're discussing it, I actually wish there was a way I could tweak durability loss depending on what material you're hitting. Like I'd love to be able to retain the current high rate of durability loss while using the fireaxe and other tools as weapons, while reducing it when using the tool vs appropriate materials, such as wood for the axe.

 

Aw man, that would be awesome. Might be possible once they open code-modding

 

I suspect one of the reasons you burned through metal so quickly is that you were using the axe as a weapon, and that's an aspect I'd like to keep if it were possible.

 

Actually I was only using it to break into houses using the least possible effort - I only noticed the killing power because a zombie surprised me and I smacked it in the face and it went down with one hit (and I then hit a couple of others just to verify). I was already hyper-conscious of the lack of durability and I had a blue survival knife by that point, so I didn't even think to try the axe before I was surprised. (I seem to recall it being a serviceable weapon in previous BTGBs but inferior to the purpose-built ones)

[FlowerChild]

It's definitely better than the stock one though, leaving aside the ammo issue. The stock one might as well just be a funny looking melee weapon heh.

 

Well, on it being better: yes and no.

 

What I did was make the damage it does non-dependent on quality (rather simply device after all), but made the rate of durability consumption (that's what you're noticing on most tools btw, not the durability itself) highly dependent on quality.

 

So, it's a highly effective weapon early game (much more so than stock), but doesn't keep increasing in damage output with quality to the point where it can overshadow modern firearms in the mid to late game (unlike in stock). If you ever try shooting a snow zombie in the face with one, you'll see what I mean

 

The perception of the stock blunderbuss being useless in vanilla (and I agree there) is largely due to the fact that it's an early game weapon (or is perceived at such), when in the early game you can't make one of sufficient quality for it to be worthwhile. The way the stats are setup basically nullify its primary use.

 

I'd *really* also like to have the thing blow up in your hands if you ever fire it to the point where it breaks, but I'll leave that for the future

 

I finally found that book too. I think I have most of the others - the only thing I've tried to do that's lacking recipes is farming (there might be other books still though, just I haven't discovered that I need them yet hehe).

 

I've bumped the farming book up to being a rare one btw, so you'll need to crack safes in order to find it. Desperate survival gameplay is essentially over once you can farm, and in one of my previous games it was the very first book I found which was just a huge "meh" moment for me.

 

Thematically, I've basically set it up as a survivalist guide on how to farm in post-apocalyptic conditions (contaminated soil and water for example), so I also think it's reasonable to gate it as a rare book, even if I wish I could do so through a mechanic other than the seed recipes to make that more intuitive. I'm basically considering the seed thing placeholder until a better method presents itself as the modding capabilities of 7 Days continue to expand.

 

It took a lot of what I call 'super-priority looting' to get it. That's basically where I sweep a POI, only looking in places that have medical supplies, iron pipes, and books, and only looting other things in a house if I'm going to overnight it. Fortunately I've been finding a lot of beer, so it's been a slightly tipsy, beer-fueled super-priority loot. I can pretty much hit two large plains POIs in a day using that technique...

 

Very cool man. If I've tweaked things to the point where you are trying to come up with more efficient looting strategies, then I am a happy camper

 

Actually, I like the big difference in durability - it's just really rough when you're scavenging iron pipes to repair your precious 'poor' fireaxe you found in a car full of shovels . Would perhaps increasing the repair value of a metal strip work instead?

 

Well, the metal strips are largely balanced vs the metal content of the tool and how much it takes to create vs repair, so no, that's probably not the way to go about it (also why quality heavily affecting the durability stat itself isn't particularly wise, but that's the way it works for many stock items). I just did another pass on the numbers though and I think I balanced them in a way that actually works better for higher quality items, but isn't quite as soul crushing on the lower quality ones. It's really all about the durability consumption rate in how I'm balancing things, so be sure to pay attention to that stat (it's displayed on mouse hover), as it's far more important than the other stats (with the possible exception of block damage) for most tools, and is a big determining factor in whether it makes more sense to keep repairing a crappy tool or to try and make a better one from scratch.

 

 

Actually I was only using it to break into houses using the least possible effort - I only noticed the killing power because a zombie surprised me and I smacked it in the face and it went down with one hit (and I then hit a couple of others just to verify). I was already hyper-conscious of the lack of durability and I had a blue survival knife by that point, so I didn't even think to try the axe before I was surprised. (I seem to recall it being a serviceable weapon in previous BTGBs but inferior to the purpose-built ones)

 

Yup, I've always favored making it a good weapon, as it instinctively feels like one. How I'm approaching things now is to give the various tools/weapons pros and cons to their use like the stamina and metal consumption stuff I've mentioned.

 

Don't forget that I've been making a lot of changes to biome progression and enemy stats as well in tandem with these tool changes, and I'm endeavoring to make all the numbers interrelate. So say, using a sledgehammer to dispatch regular zombies is highly inefficient, in that it's massive overkill in terms of damage and consumes high amounts of stamina and metal for repairs. On the other hand, at above medium quality levels, it can dispatch a cop or snow zombie in a couple of hits (or a burnt zombie in 1), which is where it's a highly effective weapon to have with you.

[DarkUncleBoh]

Nope. It's still ridiculously overpowered regardless. Once gravity is applied to it like with the wooden bow I'll consider adding it back, but there's really just no need for it in the game right now as the wood bow and blunderbuss fill the early game ranged weapon roles, and modern firearms fill the mid to late.

 

Even before I started working on the mod, I used to consider the crossbow a "cheat" in my own play, and would refuse to use it.

 

Hey there -- big fan of your work. I run a server with my own mod, with several of the changes inspired by things I've seen you do here (and then added to with some of my own ideas, like multiple "tiers" of books so that books aren't binary).

 

Anyhow, just poking around here since I haven't really been keeping up on what you've done in 11 -- from my reading so far sounds like some interesting ideas. One question on the post quoted above: you say once gravity is applied to the crossbow... is there a reason you don't just add it yourself? I did in 10.4, and combined with nerfing the damage itself, did a great job of making the crossbow fill an entirely different niche. While that niche is now filled by the wooden bow, I still find the that crossbow (with a lesser amount of gravity applied) fills an interesting mid game niche - while still requiring some real skill to use it at anything past short range.

[FlowerChild]

One question on the post quoted above: you say once gravity is applied to the crossbow... is there a reason you don't just add it yourself?

 

It occurred to me, but I just hadn't gotten around to experimenting to see if that would work

 

At present I just don't see much need for it as there isn't really a hole in the progression I see it filling. As a result, I set that as a rather low priority item while I work on balancing other stuff.

 

Thanks for the confirmation that it does indeed function well though. Will definitely save me some time when I get to it.

[DarkUncleBoh]

It occurred to me, but I just hadn't gotten around to experimenting to see if that would work

 

At present I just don't see much need for it as there isn't really a hole in the progression I see it filling. As a result, I set that as a rather low priority item while I work on balancing other stuff.

 

Thanks for the confirmation that it does indeed function well though. Will definitely save me some time when I get to it.

 

I can appreciate the "higher priority" concern, as there are certainly a lot of balancing issues with A11. Doesn't take much time really - just the single value on the bolt record.

 

As for its place in the game... in my setup at least, it fills two roles: one, the mid to late game stealth ranged weapon for when you're in a city and don't want to attract too much attention (but need to get rid of a single zed before he turns around and sees you, etc)... though I do see that role most likely shrinking (if not vanishing entirely) once silencers are introduced. Two, an alternative ranged weapon better than the bow, for when ammunition is scarce (the way that I gate things off behind multiple layers of books, depending on choices made with how to use the books that you do find, it is entirely possible to end up in a situation where you can make a crossbow but cannot say, make bullet tips for your own 7.62mm yet - not to mention the possibility of needing to conserve oil - but I haven't actually played BtGB with A11 as of yet, so I can't speak to how the rarity compares to my setup).

 

Just my own $.02 for what it's worth.

[randor9]

[quote

Well, I'm not in the habit of critiquing other modders man, and definitely don't go out of my way to do so.

 

Since you're specifically asking for feedback though: I wouldn't add it personally. The Pimps did a great job of making melee dangerous in Alpha 11, by extending the reach of zombies so that every time you get into melee combat with them you risk getting hurt/infected. My worry would be that putting a low-tech longer-reach melee weapon into the game would effectively disable that.

 

I understand that you probably added it because it "makes sense" in real world terms, but that doesn't necessarily make it into a good game feature. For example, in the consensus reality you could imagine zeds possibly grabbing your spear and pulling you into them as a result of using it, but given the game doesn't have such systems, it essentially just becomes an uber weapon that negates any danger to melee combat.

 

Ok thx for feedback and to be honest I think im going to remove it sinds what you say makes a lot of sense thx For help 2.

[FlowerChild]

Just my own $.02 for what it's worth.

 

Yeah, can't say either of those roles is really compatible with the mod's design at present. The city is effectively gated by needing heavy weaponry in order to really survive it, and that's by intent. Don't really want players to be able to sneak around in there as that's where you find a lot of the more end-game loot. I can't say I'm really a big fan of the stealth mechanics in 7 Days overall, and for the city in particular, I'll probably eventually make it a non-option in the future to further emphasize the gating there.

 

As for running low on ammo, that's where I see melee coming in. I treat ranged weapons more as something you have to earn rather than something that should be in constant supply. I've even gated the regular bow behind having a supply of scrap metal to make arrowheads, and nerfed it way below its effectiveness in vanilla. It's basically good for taking out rabbits and the occasional bee in BTGB, but that's about it.

 

Ok thx for feedback and to be honest I think im going to remove it sinds what you say makes a lot of sense thx For help 2.

 

Glad my comments were well received man. Like I said, I really don't like to critique what other modders do, and definitely don't want to discourage you in any way from making cool stuff. Given you asked me directly what I thought though, I would have felt odd not responding honestly

[DarkUncleBoh]

Yeah, can't say either of those roles is really compatible with the mod's design at present. The city is effectively gated by needing heavy weaponry in order to really survive it, and that's by intent. Don't really want players to be able to sneak around in there as that's where you find a lot of the more end-game loot. I can't say I'm really a big fan of the stealth mechanics in 7 Days overall, and for the city in particular, I'll probably eventually make it a non-option in the future to further emphasize the gating there.

 

Everyone obviously has their own opinion, but I still maintain stealth has a place in the city - at least it did in BtGB in 10.4, and it does in my own setup with some similar focus in A11. I'm not a fan of the stealth mechanics either, but the way that I set it up (for myself at least, I tend to go a bit "easier" for the other players on my server) the city is practically suicide without BOTH heavy weaponry and the judicious use of stealth. Purely one or the other makes for less interesting and less challenging gameplay IMO.

 

As for running low on ammo, that's where I see melee coming in. I treat ranged weapons more as something you have to earn rather than something that should be in constant supply. I've even gated the regular bow behind having a supply of scrap metal to make arrowheads, and nerfed it way below its effectiveness in vanilla. It's basically good for taking out rabbits and the occasional bee in BTGB, but that's about it.

 

I also treat ranged weapons as something you have to earn rather than be in constant supply - but having the components to make ammo for the guns have as much overlap as they do, makes for too much of a "single bottleneck" to having ammo versus not, resulting in fewer decisions in gameplay. Having arrows/bolts be in short supply, and something that has to be worked at - but with easier to come by knowledge (more common books gating them off as opposed to bullet production) allows for another step of progression. Having a little more option between guns and melee doesn't equal "free ammo", nor does it eliminate the "do I play it safe from ranged, or save the ammo and go melee?" question - it just adds more options. Where the specific lines of those options fall in terms of balance, can still be adjusted by other means (rarity of feathers, weapon quality, bolt drop amount, repair requirements, etc).

 

*shrug* If you don't like crossbows, you don't like crossbows - I'm not really trying to change your mind... just offering a different point of view on the reasonings you've given, as it seems (to me at least) that our underlying ideas are more similar than not - it is mostly just the directions we've gone with them that differ. And I for one often find discussing disagreements like this with those of a similar mind, to be a source of additional inspiration.

[FlowerChild]

[**** NEW RELEASE ****]

 

Version 1.36 of Better Than Giant Bees is ready for download!

 

Download Link

 

This release contains the following changes:

 

-Added a zombie attracting smell radius to fried and boiled eggs to make them a tad less portable.

 

-Changed (reduced) the chance of gaining food poisoning from eating raw eggs.

 

-Changed (rebalanced) food poisoning a bit to make it less severe, but longer duration. It should be totally survivable now, but still sucks pretty bad when it happens.

 

-Changed (reduced) the chance of getting food poisoning with moldy bread, and reduced the amount of hunger it satisfies, to make it more of a desperation food rather than a death sentence

 

-Changed (reduced) the chance of food poisoning on eating a spoiled sham sandwich, and the amount of hunger it satisfies.

 

-Changed giant bees a bit again to make them a little more dangerous.

 

-Changed (reduced) the rate at which iron fire axes, pickaxes, and sledgehammer consume durability at low quality levels, and increased it slightly at high quality levels, relative to the previous values (higher quality tools still consume less durability per swing than lower quality ones). Previously, low quality tools chewed through your metal reserve too quickly while high quality ones didn't retain the aspect of heavier

tools/weapons consuming metal more quickly.

 

-Changed (reduced) the amount of durability the hunting knife and shovel lose per swing at low quality levels to balance relative to the above.

 

-Changed (increased) the amount of damage that the pickaxe does as a weapon. It is now on par in terms of damage dealt with the fireaxe, however, it consumes more stamina to use, and needs to be repaired more frequently, thus it is not a good weapon choice if you have both tool types available.

 

-Changed (increased) the effectiveness of pickaxes vs stone.

 

-Changed (increased) the effectiveness of the shovel and hoe as weapons. In a pinch, they're actually more effective than a spiked club. I've also increased their stamina usage to balance relative to the increased damage.

 

-Changed various aspects of spider zombies to make them more dangerous. They previously looked and felt very dangerous but attacked and went down like regular zombies which felt at odds with that. This should make encounters with them feel more interesting and "special".

 

-Changed snow and feral zombies to have a longer reach on their attacks, making them more dangerous as well, particularly if you engage them in melee combat.

 

-Changed (increased) the experience gain from killing spider, burnt, and feral zombies given their increased difficulty in the mod.

 

-Changed the way tools work in general so that it is outright impossible to damage some materials with certain tool types. Wood items (or your fist) can not damage stone or "hard" metal. Stone items can not damage hard metal objects. So, for example, you can no longer break into a safe or bust down a solid metal door with a stick or stone axe. I did this to further gate the overall progression, and so that players don't wind up beating on safes for hours with a stone axe to try and crack them. I've tried to make sure that flimsy metal objects like porch lights or mail boxes can still be destroyed with any tool, but this was a pretty extensive set of changes so I may have missed a few here and there. Please be sure to let me know about any tool vs block interactions that feel off as a result.

 

-Changed the tool system so that there's a differentiation between how tools behave on trees and other solid wood objects vs stuff made out of planks and such. This will be most noticeable with the sledgehammer where it's very effective at demolishing stuff made out of planks, but not so much with trees, and also gets rid of the whole ability to punch down trees

 

-Changed how concrete blocks are handled with regards to tools for similar reasons: sledgehammer is great vs concrete, but terrible vs stone.

 

-Changed hoes to have a quality level. There's nothing like a fine hoe forged with the steady hand of experience.

 

-Changed a whole bunch of minor stats about how all the tools in the game interact with various materials so that they're more reasonable overall. There are too many changes of this kind to list individually, but I decided to check them all over while I worked on the above items.

 

-Changed (reduced) the size of POIs in plains biomes as they were a tad too large.

 

-Changed (increased) the loot in fridges, stoves, and cardboard boxes a bit as they were a constant source is dissapointment.

 

-Changed the glass window mold recipe since you can't find whole windows laying about in BTGB.

 

-Removed the ability to use the auger blade (without an actual auger) as a weapon/tool. I didn't even realize you could do this until I saw the stats, and it represented an unfortunate way to bypass the progression.

 

-Removed the "Tazas Stone Axe" from possible loot as that thing is just silly and I have no desire to try and balance a one-off item like that.

 

Enjoy!

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

*shrug* If you don't like crossbows, you don't like crossbows

 

I have no issue with crossbows in general. I do have an issue with gameplay features that fill no valid design role, which effectively disable other interesting systems through their presence, and just seem to be there because...Daryl.

 

- I'm not really trying to change your mind... just offering a different point of view on the reasonings you've given, as it seems (to me at least) that our underlying ideas are more similar than not - it is mostly just the directions we've gone with them that differ. And I for one often find discussing disagreements like this with those of a similar mind, to be a source of additional inspiration.

 

I don't. If you'd like to discuss the mod and your experiences with it (preferably once you've actually played it), I'm all for it. If you have questions about my design decisions on it, I'm happy to respond. I have no desire to get into off-topic back and forth debates about it however.

[Renegrade]

-Changed the way tools work in general so that it is outright impossible to damage some materials with certain tool types. Wood items (or your fist) can not damage stone or "hard" metal. Stone items can not damage hard metal objects. So, for example, you can no longer break into a safe or bust down a solid metal door with a stick or stone axe. I did this to further gate the overall progression, and so that players don't wind up beating on safes for hours with a stone axe to try and crack them. I've tried to make sure that flimsy metal objects like porch lights or mail boxes can still be destroyed with any tool, but this was a pretty extensive set of changes so I may have missed a few here and there. Please be sure to let me know about any tool vs block interactions that feel off as a result.

 

Lots of good stuff in this update, but I wanted to congratulate you specifically on this - I know you've wanted to do that for a while (plus it makes sense and tasty progression).

 

and also gets rid of the whole ability to punch down trees

 

Hehe~

 

-Changed the glass window mold recipe since you can't find whole windows laying about in BTGB.

 

Seriously man, you must be psychic. I was actually thinking that I'd like to make a window for my little house-fort thing, and I have 2.5 or so stack so of unused broken glass lying around, but then I realized I couldn't make the mold heh

 

Anyhow, seems like a solid update - I especially like the sound of the snow/spider/feral changes. I'm all for variety in zeds, and the spider does seem like some extra-hideous thing, at least to me.

[FlowerChild]

Lots of good stuff in this update, but I wanted to congratulate you specifically on this - I know you've wanted to do that for a while (plus it makes sense and tasty progression).

 

Hehe...yeah, I've been wanting to do that for ages, and had previously assumed it was impossible. Yesterday, I had a "wait a minute" moment and realized there was a way to get it done

 

Anyhow, seems like a solid update - I especially like the sound of the snow/spider/feral changes. I'm all for variety in zeds, and the spider does seem like some extra-hideous thing, at least to me.

 

I actually had a chuckle last night when I was playing after making those changes, was sitting in one of my many bases holed up for the night, heard the spiders outside scream, and realized I hadn't been that weirded out by their sound in ages

 

So yeah, I think their standard zombie like behavior was definitely at odds with their VERY menacing presentation.

[DarkUncleBoh]

If you'd like to discuss the mod and your experiences with it (preferably once you've actually played it), I'm all for it. If you have questions about my design decisions on it, I'm happy to respond. I have no desire to get into off-topic back and forth debates about it however.

 

Well after more hours than I care to admit to over the last few days of playing with 1.36, I admit I still don't understand statements like "no valid design role" and "effectively disable other interesting systems through their presence". I agree it would need some nerfing, but I'm guessing we're just approaching gameplay too differently, as I see it as an optional / additional choice depending on personal approach to certain situations, without stepping on the toes of anything else really. *shrug*

 

Either way, I do like some of the other changes you've made - some more than others (biome diversity is great - IMO the debuff change on boiled water is too high though).

 

Also question: Looking at the files behind the scenes, I notice that the "total alive" changes you made in spawning.xml are a little unexpected. For roaminghordespawnday, you went 5,10,15,20,15,30,40 -- why the 15 on day 5?

[FlowerChild]

WI agree it would need some nerfing, but I'm guessing we're just approaching gameplay too differently, as I see it as an optional / additional choice depending on personal approach to certain situations, without stepping on the toes of anything else really. *shrug*

 

I think "player freedom is just another word for nothing in the way of progression"

 

I'm a firm believer in hard gating (although I do use soft here and there as well). I think that's where the difference between us lays. To me, there's not much point in trying to create an overall progression unless you're willing to hard-gate certain aspects of the game, and I've chosen both ranged weapons and the city as those kinds of aspects. I thus do not think there's any value to providing alternative means of accessing either to players, as it just devalues the sense of accomplishment in attaining either, and requires me to balance things around the player having access to either at any point in the game.

 

The way I've set the mod up, indefinite survival is perfectly feasible with just the skills you initially spawn with. Everything beyond that is a bonus.

 

Also question: Looking at the files behind the scenes, I notice that the "total alive" changes you made in spawning.xml are a little unexpected. For roaminghordespawnday, you went 5,10,15,20,15,30,40 -- why the 15 on day 5?

 

Those changes were just undoing what the Pimps did to reverse the reduction in zombies spawning in a recent release. I didn't check over the individual numbers.

 

Either way, I do like some of the other changes you've made - some more than others (biome diversity is great - IMO the debuff change on boiled water is too high though).

 

Again man: I'm not really interested in discussing this stuff with you unless it's based on experience playing the mod. I have zero desire in having a debate revolving around theoretical assumptions about the numbers.

[DarkUncleBoh]

I think "player freedom is just another word for nothing in the way of progression"

 

Heh, I think that is an overly simplistic look at it, but I can appreciate what you're saying - as in a lot of games (particularly with poor balance), that does kinda seem to be the case.

 

I'm a firm believer in hard gating (although I do use soft here and there as well). I think that's where the difference between us lays. To me, there's not much point in trying to create an overall progression unless you're willing to hard-gate certain aspects of the game, and I've chosen both ranged weapons and the city as those kinds of aspects. I thus do not think there's any value to providing alternative means of accessing either to players, as it just devalues the sense of accomplishment in attaining either, and requires me to balance things around the player having access to either at any point in the game.

 

I'm not clear what you mean as far as "hard" vs. "soft" gating - but I think I do understand now where you're coming from on this. Perhaps not my favored direction, but I can see how you're looking at it (viewing it as "gating ranged weapons" as opposed to "gating 1 slightly easier way to kill zed with its own pros/cons" vs "gating another even easier way to kill zed with different pros/cons").

 

Those changes were just undoing what the Pimps did to reverse the reduction in zombies spawning in a recent release. I didn't check over the individual numbers.

Ah, OK. I thought it might be a mistake and wanted to point it out as a minor "bug report" just to be helpful, but was afraid there might be some specific reason behind it that I wasn't privy to.

 

 

Again man: I'm not really interested in discussing this stuff with you unless it's based on experience playing the mod. I have zero desire in having a debate revolving around theoretical assumptions about the numbers.

 

Again, this is based on my experience playing the mod - I thought I stated that. I've been off of work for most of the week, and playing 7D is nearly all I've been doing. I started a playthrough on 1.35, but you put out 1.36 very shortly thereafter so I restarted so as not to bork things with rwgmixer changes in the middle.

 

My intention wasn't to annoy, just to voice an opinion of someone playing your mod -- that overall I think it is awesome, but also to voice my opinion that the boiled water hits you with dys too often. Not expecting you to do anything about it, just offering my own feedback.

[FlowerChild]

[**** NEW RELEASE ****]

 

Version 1.37 of Better Than Giant Bees is ready for download!

 

Download Link

 

This release contains the following changes:

 

-Added a new "Basic Botany" common skill book which teaches how to harvest goldenrod, cotton, and blueberry seeds to act as an early entry point into the less valuable aspects of faming, and which operates under the assumption that hearty wild species of plants are easier to cultivate post-apocalypse than higher value domesticated crops. The "3 food groups" system I implemented recently also makes having a large supply of blueberries of rather dubious value, so it's no longer as progression breaking. Corn and Potatoes provide the uncommon (in terms of looted food) vegatable and starch buffs, while blueberries provide none.

 

-Added the ability to break down leather armor items into leather strips. This has become more important than previously given the quality system will likely have you wanting to make new items to replace the old as you gain level.

 

-Changed (increased) the amount of time it takes corn to grow, as apparently I missed it previously while adjusting the other values.

 

-Changed (increased) the size of the "rural" POIs in plains to what they were previous to the last release, as I think they needed to be larger to accommodate the larger buildings. These are the smaller POIs that tend to line either side of a road and not form "blocks" surrounded by roads on all sides (those are "town" POIs).

 

-Changed (reduced) the size of "town" POIs in the plains biome as they were still a tad too big.

 

-Changed the desert biome to be more heavily weighted towards generating town POIs rather than rural.

 

-Changed (reduced) the chances of "rural" POIs spawning in forest biomes to make it a very low chance indeed, to further emphasize them being mostly found in more difficult biomes.

 

-Changed small stores to not spawn in forest biomes.

 

-Changed gas stations to not spawn in forest or plains biomes.

 

-Changed (increased) the amount of time it takes for "wild" species of plants to grow (the ones in the Basic Botany book and trees), to further differentiate them from cultivated crops.

 

-Changed the leather recipe to produce half as much, but changed pigs and deer to drop twice as much hide. I did this as it was a little too easy to create and maintain leather armor strictly by killing the occasional rabbit, which was hurting biome diversity.

 

-Changed (increased) the cost in leather of the leather hat.

 

-Changed the crushed goldenrod recipe to require two plants, both to make harvesting it more of a concern, and because it was conflicting with the corresponding seed recipe.

 

-Changed (increased) the spider zombie's run speed a bit.

 

-Changed carboard box and medicine cabinet loot a bit to further tweak their contents.

 

-Changed (reduced) the amount of yucca and aloe that spawn in deserts to make finding them more of a thing. Also reduced the amount of cactus to make the biome feel a little less alive and to make the areas with greater vegetation stand out more.

 

-Changed blunderbuss ammo so that it can't be scrapped into iron, given it can be made out of a variety of metals.

 

-Changed the loot in safes to contain less gun parts.

 

-Changed the rare whole firearm loot found in backpacks, dressers, suitcases, lockers, cars and tree stumps to weapon parts and boosted the chance of finding them, as assembling your own weapons is far more satisfying than finding them whole, and both the wood bow and blunderbuss now fill the early to mid game ranged weapon roles.

 

-Changed (increased) the chance of finding clothing in suitcases.

 

-Removed the ability for pharmacies to spawn in plains. You'll have to go to more difficult biomes to find them.

 

-Removed some lingering coffee beans that were in "Working Stiffs" shops.

 

-Removed the "Tazas Stone Axe" from possible loot...for really reals this time

 

-Removed the starch buff from all corn-related foods (corn meal etc.) and replaced it with a vegetable buff, in order to provide more of an incentive to grow both potatoes and corn.

 

-Removed loose rocks from the desert and snow biomes to further emphasize their distinct character.

 

-Removed the burnt zombie spawns from the wasteland/city, as they looked distinctly out of place there. I've also boosted the feral spawns to compensate.

 

Enjoy!

 

-----

 

Note: I'll be putting out another release (likely within the next few hours) that will include a rebalancing of overall biome distribution. I wanted to put this one out first for people that have existing BTGB saves, as altering biome probabilities can cause big ugly seams all over the place in existing worlds, and I didn't want them to have to do without all the changes I've made above.

 

If you're starting a new game though, I'd recommend holding off for the next release, as the biome probabilities have a very large impact on play.