[MOD] Better Than Giant Bees: Hardcore Survival

[FlowerChild]

Perhaps that was buried in the flurry then, because I did of course account for the fact it was on me.

 

But I'll take the high road and go ahead - my bad!

 

Fair enough, and yes, you are correct that quote was lost in the flurry.

 

It would still be good to know what Cork55 is doing to break the file to help him get past his issue.

 

Well, for that one we'd really have to see what his edits are, and that's a topic that's likely more appropriate to another thread given it's not directly related to the mod itself.

[LorenzoMatterhorn]

Hey, just wanted to say that after a few days with this mod, my experience has been great. The mod is brutal in a good way. I'm still playing permadeath, so I've had to restart a few times. I finally gave up and switched off feral zombies, because apparently on the Navezgane map it kept throwing dogs at me the first night no matter where I was on the map. But I'm sure that works better on random gen where there's a little more space between things.

 

On my current game I'm on day 5, have found jack squat for books (like 6 copies of Ammunition Nation), and finally found my first fire axe! Let me say, that is a game changer right there! I can finally get into (and out of) places faster than the zombies can close in on me. I'm excited to see how night 7 goes though since I still haven't started fortifying.

 

And you were 100% right about the necessity of removing the crossbow. I tried lowering the damage and tripling the reload time but it still felt overpowered. The game is definitely better without it.

[FlowerChild]

I finally gave up and switched off feral zombies, because apparently on the Navezgane map it kept throwing dogs at me the first night no matter where I was on the map. But I'm sure that works better on random gen where there's a little more space between things.

 

Hmmm...yeah, that sounds like it is specific to that map then, as with random gen nothing like it has ever happened to me.

 

It's unfortunate too as feral zombies are really a game changer. With them, the day game becomes about scavenging, construction, repairs, and such, and the night game becomes about base defense. Without them, I find the game devolves into "crouching in a corner until morning so the zombies don't sense you", at which point I usually go do something else until morning arrives

 

Honestly, I really feel like something was lost when the stealth mechanics were introduced into the game, as when I first started playing 7 Days, zombies were essentially always feral and your base would get attacked relentlessly all night.

 

It took me awhile after the stealth features were added to realize that I just wasn't having as much fun anymore and figure out that feral zombies essentially fixed that.

 

The stealth system "makes sense" in terms of the consensus reality, but in terms of gameplay I think it was actually a step in the wrong direction.

 

And you were 100% right about the necessity of removing the crossbow. I tried lowering the damage and tripling the reload time but it still felt overpowered. The game is definitely better without it.

 

Glad you agree. I've been playing without the crossbow in my local games for a long time now, and yeah, it makes a rather stunning difference to many aspects of the game to just rip it out.

[Cork55]

Thanks guys. I'll post some examples of what I added that caused the recipes to not load. I have also had times when some of them load from all locations in the xml file.

[Xamllew]

Hmmm...yeah, that sounds like it is specific to that map then, as with random gen nothing like it has ever happened to me.

 

It's unfortunate too as feral zombies are really a game changer. With them, the day game becomes about scavenging, construction, repairs, and such, and the night game becomes about base defense. Without them, I find the game devolves into "crouching in a corner until morning so the zombies don't sense you", at which point I usually go do something else until morning arrives

 

Honestly, I really feel like something was lost when the stealth mechanics were introduced into the game, as when I first started playing 7 Days, zombies were essentially always feral and your base would get attacked relentlessly all night.

 

It took me awhile after the stealth features were added to realize that I just wasn't having as much fun anymore and figure out that feral zombies essentially fixed that.

 

The stealth system "makes sense" in terms of the consensus reality, but in terms of gameplay I think it was actually a step in the wrong direction.

 

 

 

Glad you agree. I've been playing without the crossbow in my local games for a long time now, and yeah, it makes a rather stunning difference to many aspects of the game to just rip it out.

 

I was doing the same thing, hunkering down at night waiting for daylight, sometimes even alt+tabbing out until morning, nights are really a drag without feral mode. This actually started causing me to accumulate too many supplies because I never needed to use them other than the 7th day.

 

I really miss wandering hordes at daytime, it was pretty intense to run back to base and listen to an army of walkers as the trudge past you. Another nice thing was zombies running indoors, doesn't make sense from a lore standpoint, but it made you rethink just running into a POI blindly.

[FlowerChild]

I really miss wandering hordes at daytime, it was pretty intense to run back to base and listen to an army of walkers as the trudge past you.

 

In the case of day time hordes, I'd advise to keep playing, because I suspect that this begins to kick in after day 7.

 

I'm not entirely certain if this is coded in or was just coincidental, but I only started seeing spider zombies during the day after the first super-horde attack on the night of Day 7. These then acted as spotters to bring in daytime hordes if I failed to notice one, or didn't take it out long-range.

 

Like I said, I still don't have enough experience with the system to know precisely how it works, especially since I have mostly been playing the first few days repeatedly working on the early game, but when I did notice the spiders start showing up in my current game I had a "ok...that's really cool" response

 

I really like the idea of things getting progressively harder like that as the days progress, to at least partially offset the player's progress and add an overall sense of urgency to things, and I really hope it represents an overall design-trend that the Pimps are heading towards.

 

Another nice thing was zombies running indoors, doesn't make sense from a lore standpoint, but it made you rethink just running into a POI blindly.

 

Yeah, I miss that too. Not sure if it really makes less sense than the day/night behavior from a lore standpoint either. I think "light makes them sluggish" is a fine convention. Maybe their eyes are particularly light sensitive or what have you and it causes them to become disoriented in lit areas.

 

Actually, I think that convention would seriously rule if applied to all circumstances. Like I could imagine shining a flashlight at zombies to get them to slow down, which in turn would leave you vulnerable to fast zombies coming in from a different direction

[Xamllew]

I believe the lore is that they're effected by moonlight AKA "Lunar lunacy"

 

And I haven't yet spotted any spider zombies in my current game yet but then again I've been nomadic traveling from POI to POI, did have a pretty intense horde fight in the attic of a house last night.

[FlowerChild]

I believe the lore is that they're effected by moonlight AKA "Lunar lunacy"

 

Well, lore could be changed if it benefits gameplay, and in this case I really think it would. It's one of the reasons I never get into describing back-story with my mods and leave it to the player's imagination, as ultimately if I think something benefits gameplay, then I'll rewrite the back story to accommodate it instead of the other way around.

 

Personally, I think the modern trend of "story driven gameplay" (instead of "gameplay driven story") is a big load of hooey

 

Like the flashlight thing has almost a "weeping angels" vibe to it man, and I could see it being truly panic inducing if groups of zombies got closer each time you looked at another group with an active flashlight in hand (or say taped to a gun).

 

Also, as you mentioned with the zombies running in doors, I thought it was great when it worked that way, as it made going into large buildings like schools particularly terrifying as there's no way you could light the whole thing up, and you knew at any minute that a fast zombie you might have missed could come tearing at you.

 

It also adds another element to base defense, as lighting up your perimeter becomes a consideration to slow down the rate at which zombies can tear through your walls. In combination with the new more expensive torch recipes dependent on tallow, I think that would make an excellent additional consideration.

 

Anyways, if I had reasonable access to modding the code to change this myself, you can be certain that I'd cancel all my plans for the weekend and get right on that, as whatever that games is, I desperately want to play it

[Cork55]

@Cork55 - It's because there's an error in his recipes file.

 

@FlowerChild - you have this near the bottom:

 <recipe name="Fried Egg" count="1" scrapable="False" craft_area="campfire" craft_tool="cookingGrill" craft_time="5">
   <ingredient name="egg" count="1" />
 </recipe>

 

That's invalid. The name of a recipe is literally the name of an existing in-game item. Case sensitive and no spaces. That entry is causing the game to stop parsing all recipes following that entry.

 

You might want to use a recipe editor to eliminate all such types of mistakes. Just a suggestion

 

I love your editor. I did not realize that it was updated to version 10.

[BloodSlinger]

No problem. I've been out of state on contract so plenty didn't. Obviously for the fried egg that's on me since I rushed to assist and didn't actually install the rest of the files, only the recipes. We all have "duh" moments and that's one of mine.

 

But anyway good luck and let know any issues in the main thread as needed.

[FlowerChild]

No problem. I've been out of state on contract so plenty didn't. Obviously for the fried egg that's on me since I rushed to assist and didn't actually install the rest of the files, only the recipes. We all have "duh" moments and that's one of mine.

 

No worries man. We've all had those moments where we've run into a burning building to try and rescue a trapped old lady, screaming at the firemen the whole time how they're messing everything up and how we're the real experts here, and how they should really be using hoses purchased at your shop, only to have it backfire on us.

 

What counts is you're a true humanitarian regardless.

[Cork55]

I found a couple of hard to spot typos/formatting items in the recipe file and have that working. Now to figure out why I am not spawning any loot with my new files.

[FlowerChild]

I found a couple of hard to spot typos/formatting items in the recipe file and have that working. Now to figure out why I am not spawning any loot with my new files.

 

Mind taking this elsewhere man? It really isn't mod related and has already taken up close to a couple of pages here.

[Cork55]

Actually I was using your mod files which were a mess of sorts. But I will post any further discussion in a separate thread.

[Herman Toothrot]

Also, as you mentioned with the zombies running in doors, I thought it was great when it worked that way, as it made going into large buildings like schools particularly terrifying as there's no way you could light the whole thing up, and you knew at any minute that a fast zombie you might have missed could come tearing at you.

 

It also adds another element to base defense, as lighting up your perimeter becomes a consideration to slow down the rate at which zombies can tear through your walls. In combination with the new more expensive torch recipes dependent on tallow, I think that would make an excellent additional consideration.

 

I miss that a lot. I wish light still had that effect, and that torches would either require a rather rare or hard to aquire resource, or have to be refilled with coal or tallow every few days. Either that, or electric lights only could have that effect -- either way, it should require a lot to increase your "comfort zone", both up front and in maintainance. And maybe zombies could even attack lights, and surely should attack generators if they can hear them.

 

Maybe the change shouldn't be instant as it was though. Being in light would slow them down over time, and vice versa with darkness. Various zombies could adapt more quickly or more slowly. And then moon phase and it being night or day could play roles, too, affecting the effect of light so to speak.

 

I really hope 7DTD can expose more things to modding, because many things we can never all agree on anyway -- but I think more people could agree on that it would be cool to be able to change what zombie reacts how to darkness or light, and how quickly. Stuff like speed, damage to players, damage to blocks, sight range, hearing range, likelihood to make noise, at which distance from the player they turn feral, how much they hate light sources, etc. -- what the default values for those are would be much less important than making them values in an xml to be easily changed to begin with. That would allow people to play around with stuff and playtest the ideas, which in turn could provide useful feedback for the creation of the finished "vanilla" product.

[Peppino]

great mod!

 

but please change the zombie spawns like:

- remove dogs and bees

- less zombies at day, much bigger and increased chance of spawning zombie hordes

[LorenzoMatterhorn]

great mod!

 

but please change the zombie spawns like:

- remove dogs and bees

- less zombies at day, much bigger and increased chance of spawning zombie hordes

 

Oh boy! Now FlowerChild, remember to take deep breaths and count to 10!

 

In other news, after being destroyed by dogs once again on Navezgane (even without feral) I switched over to Randomgen and it works flawlessly. So yeah, definitely something buggy with my Navezgane. Unfortunately, the game hates me and after 4 days I still haven't found any iron tools and only the leather book. Stupid RNG! On the plus side, I've discovered lots of new techniques for survival at tech level 0. Couches are my new favorite thing, they make great stepping stones and camp fire fuel.

[FlowerChild]

Actually I was using your mod files which were a mess of sorts.

 

No, they aren't, they're designed for easy maintainability from version to version of 7 Days, and honestly don't care man. I'm not running a modding the mod support thread.

 

but please change the zombie spawns like:

- remove dogs and bees

- less zombies at day, much bigger and increased chance of spawning zombie hordes

 

You see the part in the thread title about hardcore survival? Then why you asking me to make it less hardcore?

 

I don't like giant bees thematically, but no way I would take them out entirely as they fill a valuable gameplay role. Same for dogs, except I think they're fine thematically.

 

Oh boy! Now FlowerChild, remember to take deep breaths and count to 10!

 

Trying

 

In other news, after being destroyed by dogs once again on Navezgane (even without feral) I switched over to Randomgen and it works flawlessly. So yeah, definitely something buggy with my Navezgane. Unfortunately, the game hates me and after 4 days I still haven't found any iron tools and only the leather book. Stupid RNG! On the plus side, I've discovered lots of new techniques for survival at tech level 0. Couches are my new favorite thing, they make great stepping stones and camp fire fuel.

 

Oh dude, I'm at like day 14 in my current world, have no iron tools, have a knife, a rifle, a few books covering leather tanning and pottery, and I think a couple of secondary other skills. Still no forging or construction ability.

 

Granted, I played most of that while the books were a tad less common, but yeah, day 4 is nothing in terms of accumulating stuff

[Cork55]

Relax dude. Nobody is looking to hijack your mod thread. I was unable to find an answer to my modding problem, so I asked a question where those who are modding (like in this thread) might be able to help. I'll stick to the topic moving forward.

 

As for the mod, it's got some nice stuff in it that I would like to use in my mod. Here are a couple of typos you might want to correct. These are the Pimps and not yours.

 

The Iron leg armor description should be: description="Learn how to craft iron leg armor." It was saying chest armor.

 

The Iron boots description should be: description="Learn how to craft iron boots." It was saying chest armor.

[Xamllew]

Oh dude, I'm at like day 14 in my current world, have no iron tools, have a knife, a rifle, a few books covering leather tanning and pottery, and I think a couple of secondary other skills. Still no forging or construction ability.

 

Day 16, still using a stone axe, and a pistol with a handful of bullets, had a pickaxe for a short bit but forgot to repair it, still recovering fort from night 14, I must be a masochist to enjoy this.

[FlowerChild]

Day 16, still using a stone axe, and a pistol with a handful of bullets, had a pickaxe for a short bit but forgot to repair it, still recovering fort from night 14, such is life in a 50% loot world.

 

You may have already done this and just not mentioned your melee weapon, but don't forget to check the weapon stats on clubs vs. the stone axe.

 

The melee weapon progression is completely different than in stock, and even a bone shiv is a better weapon than that stone axe

 

Also, the mod is balanced for 25% loot abundance as per the recommended options in the OP, so you've actually got it a bit easy. That doesn't affect the chance of finding books or tools mind you.

[Xamllew]

Oh yeah, I have a hunting knife and a couple of clubs, I was just saying that the stone axe is still my primary tool for logging and accessing POIs after all this time. I'm thinking about turning on "delete inventory on death" once I get a solid base of operation going, I think that is a bit scarier than being spawned somewhere totally random, and it gives you something to do with all the extra supplies you eventually collect once settled.

[FlowerChild]

Oh yeah, I have a hunting knife and a couple of clubs, I was just saying that the stone axe is still my primary tool for logging and accessing POIs after all this time. I'm thinking about turning on "delete inventory on death" once I get a solid base of operation going, I think that is a bit scarier than being spawned somewhere totally random, and it gives you something to do with all the extra supplies you eventually collect once settled.

 

Yeah, it's an interesting point, but the flip side is that it could also lead to rather gamey behavior like trying to stash your loot in containers before dying and keeping a minimum of stuff on you at all times to minimize the death penalty.

 

I definitely hear what you're saying there, I just suspect it's the kind of thing that once you get used to it might not actually provide much additional death penalty, and may influence your own behavior in ways that feel off.

 

Personally, what I'd love to do is be able to turn the map off entirely and icons on your compass pointing to your death-loot, in which case the random respawn location would really be emphasized in terms of death penalty.

[Xamllew]

That sounds really harsh, personally that would probably result in me ragequitting. You'd probably have to start fresh every death, because how exactly would you find your way back? There isn't really a means of navigating through random gen terrain right now aside for the sun.

 

You've got a point, people would probably stash their gear if they had the 'delete inventory' option, that's a shame because I really like the fact that it increases the demand for things like leather and metal for new weapons after they lose everything, because right now I have like 30 leather sitting in my inventory because I already have full leather armor and nothing to use it for.

[FlowerChild]

That sounds really harsh, personally that would probably result in me ragequitting. You'd probably have to start fresh every death, because how exactly would you find your way back? There isn't really a means of navigating through random gen terrain right now aside for the sun.

 

It's basically how another one of my mods, Better Than Wolves, works, so it is very doable. Whether it results in rage-quit is very dependent on personality, but I personally love it

 

It largely becomes about building landmarks for yourself and such directing you to specific locations like your main base, which I find works extremely well in voxel games as it provides further incentive for manipulating the environment and building.

 

Yes, it requires thinking in a different way about things, but it's really where these random respawns turn into the "persistent rogue-like" thing I mentioned in a previous post. Essentially you lose everything on death (at least until your world is quite built up and you've both explored and marked a large area. which essentially allows the player to work towards negating the death penalty through their own efforts), and it's similar to starting up a fresh world when you do very similar to perma-death (hence the rogue-like part), but your stuff is still out there *somewhere* for you to eventually find and is never lost forever (hence the persistent part), which avoids at least part of the totally soul-crushing aspect of death in true rogue-likes.

 

And don't forget the compass on the toolbar in terms of navigation. I don't want to turn that off, just the backpack icon you get to mark your last death location.