[MOD] Better Than Giant Bees: Hardcore Survival

[justanothersurvivor]

In the future I'd really like to decouple experience and zombie killing. I think it's lead people to the mistaken impression that killing everything that moves is the appropriate strategy, when I really don't think it is in most cases, and while experience is nice, it really isn't a priority most of the time relative to the time you waste killing stuff.

 

but that's pretty much what i meant when i said "on day 5 i don't feel like i gained anything". Killing zombies is a source of materials (water, iron(nails, cans), cloth, the occasional healing item). But more importantly it's a source of xp and that is the only thing that grants you definitive progression/improvement. Finding items or books is a gamble. That's what i mean. i could just restart over and look for the next/closest POI and if I'm lucky i find book X or Tool Y. And if i do find something after these lets say 20 minutes of playtime i'd probably feel&be already more powerful then i was in the previous game with more then 8 ingame days and being around lvl 1x with maybe a bit more wellness (or even less then i started with) but nothing to really show for compared to the time spend.(~because apparently i wasn't so lucky with the loot).

You craft everything necessary in a few in-game hours and then it's just wandering around hoping for favorable RNG. So killing a lot zombies and gaining xp+levels is really the only thing i see how i can progress without putting all my faith in the RNG.

[FlowerChild]

You craft everything necessary in a few in-game hours and then it's just wandering around hoping for favorable RNG. So killing a lot zombies and gaining xp+levels is really the only thing i see how i can progress without putting all my faith in the RNG.

 

That's the game here man. You're out looking for loot and slowly gaining skills through finding books. Looting is an inherently random activity and I don't personally view the "RNG" factor as a downside as it leads to varied interesting scenarios with each play through. You can affect your overall chances of finding better stuff through different looting strategies, but whether or not you find a particular something is ultimately up to chance.

 

You don't really find tools here either btw. It all comes down to the books and learning how to make them.

 

Otherwise, your progress is in small areas: setting up safehouses surrounding the city for example so that you can more quickly recover from a death. Slowly fortifying key ones to survive 7 Day hoards. Stockpiling food and materials for later use.

 

So yeah, I think you confirmed by suspicion that I really should get rid of zombie xp and move it to other sources, as getting caught up on killing zombies is impractical in terms of it wasting time you could be spending looting and progressing in more significant areas, minimizes the significance for more tactical solutions to clearing an area, and takes away a lot of the horror element of the game when you're focused on slaughtering everyone you see. Under those circumstances, I suspect the player is more the monster of this story than the zombies

 

You're really not gaining all that much with leveling btw, as the difference in quality between low level and high level items in BTGB is substantially muted over stock. You really need to learn to make new stuff to progress significantly in it, not just craft better versions of the same old junk

[FlowerChild]

Killing zombies is a source of materials (water, iron(nails, cans), cloth, the occasional healing item).

 

On this one: they're really not. At least they're not as an effective source as others, as I've intentionally toned down zombie loot to discourage feeling compelled to clear them all in past releases.

 

They're not much better than walking trash piles.

[BloodDeacon]

your progression is exactly what i mean. you follow the next road you find to loot all the trash piles on the road & kill zombies for the nails. cut down the occasional bush and the first house with curtains you find equals full cloth armor. at this point you probably got a cooking pot (50% chance) and a few glass bottles (+depending on your luck or how eager you were in engaging the fat zombies). Also i think in the beginning you are better off just harvesting grass with a wooden stick as the stick doesn't loose quality and even if your stamina is down to 0 you can still harvest grass with 4-5 hits. So you i usually have a bow, club and a stoneaxe in the first 30 ingame minutes. (gotta use these no-spawn in-game hours you got for free in your spawn area after all )

 

maybe it would be interesting to know your biome challenge order.. like after i got the above items.. and was like level 13 (i was able to make poor stuff instead of faulty ones) i went into the snow biome and the far reaching iced zombies took way to long to take down to even bother engaging.

 

so it's forest, plains, desert, burned, snow, city?

 

while desert has cops and dogs they are still easier to kill then iced zombies..

 

First of all, I wanted to thank you, FlowerChild, for sharing this mod with the community. It has definitely revived 7DTD for me. I've noticed that the game's devs are looking at several of the same strategies you've included in BTGB (increased scarcity, biome loot diversification, for example), coincidentally or not.

 

As for the question you asked regarding progression, justanothersurvivor, I can only give you my personal approach to BTGB, for what it's worth.

 

*May be some spoilers here, about changes in enemy mechanics -- you are warned.*

 

1) (Non-burnt) Forests, plains -- always on (I know the occasional dog in the plains is a risk with only a stone axe or wooden club, but I enjoy the challenge)

 

2) Deserts -- off limits until spiked club. Without a spiked club, I have trouble with more than 1 dog -- these are easy enough to make that if I hit a desert early on day 1 I'll forage until I get the nails necessary to make one. Cops and hornets are pretty easy to avoid. Just don't let them hit you in BTGB.

 

3) Snow -- off limits until blunderbuss and/or antibiotics and healing supplies to spare. The limited visibility here means I need to be able to deal with dogs quickly, or be able to treat the resulting wounds. I also try to bring a lot of couches and/or have the home maintenance book recipes to buy myself a bit of extra time when looting around the snow zombies. Despite their increased speed, snow zombies are still pretty easy to out-maneuver.

 

4*) Burnt forest (I've only ever found three of these while playing BTGB) -- off limits, period, unless I can't find coal in a cave for gunpowder, maybe? In any case, the burning zombies now run at all times of day, and getting stun-swarmed by them is probably a death-sentence unless you've got heavy firepower. The one burnt town I found had pretty much nothing in it, while the other two burnt forests had no apparent POI, and the hives no longer contain honey. Not as tough as the Wasteland, by any stretch, but no more rewarding in my experience than desert/snow. No thanks.

 

5) Wasteland/City -- off limits until I have decent armor, a decent firearm, and some medical supplies. Four head-shots with an axe (of green quality, at least) will put down a feral, but I'd rather not rely on that. Other than the always running ferals (which you typically only have to deal with a few at a time), city challenge seems about on par with vanilla, given the same equipment. I always save my coffee for cities.

 

As for leveling and crafting, I only re-craft to improve degradation rates and object destruction properties. The differences in weapon damage in BTGB from 10 levels to another are pretty small. Big early steps for me are improving stone axe degradation to 6 (at around quality 140?), which lets me pound away at objects for a bit longer, and spiked club degradation to around 3 (at around quality 160?), which means I spend less time looking through the trash or on corpses for spiked nails.

[justanothersurvivor]

As for leveling and crafting, I only re-craft to improve degradation rates and object destruction properties. The differences in weapon damage in BTGB from 10 levels to another are pretty small. Big early steps for me are improving stone axe degradation to 6 (at around quality 140?), which lets me pound away at objects for a bit longer, and spiked club degradation to around 3 (at around quality 160?), which means I spend less time looking through the trash or on corpses for spiked nails.

 

I never said i was only after the block/entity damage. Being able to remove a wooden barricade in a doorway without my stamina going down to 20 or 0 % and my stoneaxe having at best 60% durability left (thus having to repair it again if i want to still 'reasonably efficient' remove other obstacles/collect resources) would be already a great relieve. (now that i wrote that.. wouldn't it be better just to increase the durability as it just adds annoying micromanagement as stones are plentiful to be found everywhere)

 

And before you say "you don't have to cut down every obstacle. Be tactical". I am.. I truly am. Using Windows or other easy-to-destroy entry points, ladders to get to the 2nd floor to get into buildings .. even going through floors/roofs as the room i want to get into has a wooden reinforced metaldoor i'd never get open in a timely manner.

 

So looting a building has very little to offer apart from the highly desired books. You have your basic to-go gear together at noontide on day one. (or whenever you hit your first POI)

 

Yes i value a good stoneaxe very highly. Getting anything better then the Stoneaxe requires... how many? 3 Books? I never even got 2 which complement each other.

 

It really feels more like.. Stone(axe)age - hardcore survival

[extremis]

If this post is considered inappropriate please let me know so i can remove it.

 

I have not seen many folks seeking a BTGB server and would like to offer invites out to fans that meet the criteria we are looking for in our small, persistent (24/7) server. Please see the thread below for more details.

 

Again, if this post is considered to be inappropriately placed, please notify me and i will remove it.

 

link to recruitment thread

 

or copy and paste the link below:

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?28030-small-server-%2824-7%29-PvE-Better-Than-Giant-Bees-Hardcore-Survival-Mod

[FlowerChild]

I never said i was only after the block/entity damage. Being able to remove a wooden barricade in a doorway without my stamina going down to 20 or 0 % and my stoneaxe having at best 60% durability left (thus having to repair it again if i want to still 'reasonably efficient' remove other obstacles/collect resources) would be already a great relieve.

 

From the above it sounds like you're already making it more painful than it needs to be. As your stamina goes down, so does the damage you're doing to blocks. As your axe becomes more damaged, it also does less damage.

 

So, the fastest way to cut through a door is at full stamina with a fully repaired axe. Let your stamina drain a bit, repair the axe, recoup stamina while repairing, loot other objects in room if you need more time to recover, swing at barricade, repeat.

 

Of course, you have crafting time turned off, so this might not all play out the same way, but there's essentially a rhythm that you find for yourself while doing these things.

 

Yes i value a good stoneaxe very highly. Getting anything better then the Stoneaxe requires... how many? 3 Books? I never even got 2 which complement each other.

 

You say "getting anything better", I say "getting the best axe in the game" (short of a chainsaw). There's not a lot of resolution to the progression on tools in 7 Days at present. It's basically a binary situation for most of them where either you have the uber tool or you don't, which is one of the reasons the stock progression is over so quickly.

 

It really feels more like.. Stone(axe)age - hardcore survival

 

So?

 

I'll ask again man: are you sure this is the mod for you? As I said previously, it's all about extended progression and requires a certain amount of patience to enjoy. There's no point banging your head against the wall if that's not what you're looking for.

[justanothersurvivor]

yes you did and this is also my last response on this, so i won't clutter up your thread any further.

You wanted feedback from people actually playing your mod. I did for several 10s of hours and stated the points that bothered me while playing. It raises the challenge bar but at the price of potential long phases of stagnancy.

[FlowerChild]

You wanted feedback from people actually playing your mod.

 

Well, I don't believe I ever really asked for it, but regardless, I'd be primarily interested in feedback from people that are playing my mod that are actually interested in playing my mod

 

If someone is opposed to a more challenging experience for example, I wouldn't think that it's particularly useful for them to tell me the mod should be easier, as it's intended to be more challenging.

 

Similarly, the mod is designed to provide a slower and more involved progression, thus someone saying repeatedly in different ways that they don't want that isn't particularly useful. It's just a matter of it not being a mod for them.

 

I did for several 10s of hours and stated the points that bothered me while playing. It raises the challenge bar but at the price of potential long phases of stagnancy.

 

Well, I think a big part of that is that you've been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and force the mod to comply to your own personal desires for progression. Thus you've been wasting a lot of time doing stuff like killing zombies instead of actually moving in a direction that will cause you to advance in more significant areas.

 

But again, I think part of this is that it's simply not the kind of play experience you're looking for. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that on either side, but also likely nothing to be gained from you playing it/providing feedback on either side as well.

[Glasssman1965]

Well, all I can say is im QUITE the interior cave decorator now. Though I turned sleeping bags/beds back on and have air drops every 7 days..(got 1 in 18 days then died trying to get the complete SMG it had home, since I had no spare ammo and used it all in the 7ths day from hell dogs no biggie). day 18 level 23 and can make yellow gear, had a hunting rifle but alas died and lost it.

 

reason for post. when I die and respawn, my tool belt is gone but my back pack is still full the first time I open it, thus allowing me to exploit it and open a chest save the best loot in chest and tool belt before closing ( it anything still in pack when I close 1st time is the poofed away)

this is obviously a BTGB game breaking exploit. Anyone else have this problem.... cause im too much a wussy to just destroy my own gear if I can save it.

 

FC- it would be nice if you could some how see you way to up the frequency of painkillers on nurses a smidge. since the pound puppies gang rape me every time I foolishly try and get aleo, and I kill EVEY BUSTY NURSE I SEE and I doubt I found more then 5 pills total while I have found 2 beakers so far...

 

Once I got a beaker im swimming in antibiotics now , but god the lower levels dysintary was worse then the dogs.

[FlowerChild]

Though I turned sleeping bags/beds back on and have air drops every 7 days..

 

Air drops aren't balanced *at all* in the mod (they're basically at their stock values). They're bound to break the progression.

 

I should probably empty out the loot lists on them so that they'll just be useless if someone turns them on.

 

this is obviously a BTGB game breaking exploit. Anyone else have this problem.... cause im too much a wussy to just destroy my own gear if I can save it.

 

I definitely haven't seen anything like that.

 

FC- it would be nice if you could some how see you way to up the frequency of painkillers on nurses a smidge.

 

Nope. I'm actively trying to discourage killing every zombie the player sees. Zombie loot is crappy by design. If you want painkillers, either loot medicine cabinets, or go looking for a pharmacy.

 

Once I got a beaker im swimming in antibiotics now , but god the lower levels dysintary was worse then the dogs.

 

Not sure how you're swimming in antibiotics with just a beaker as it takes an advanced skill book to learn how to make them.

[BloodDeacon]

Well, I can safely say that was the most enjoyable month or so I've had playing a mod since my first run with JA 1.13 back in the day.

 

I'd like to now make an attempt at modding in 7DTD. FlowerChild -- would you object if I incorporated some of your ideas and (if acceptable, the current BTGB code base) into a slightly less hardcore game? I'd like to try my hand at something with a slightly more tiered approach to game progression (e.g. instead of the current 2 tiers of books, I'm interested in exploring the possibility of 4 tiers).

 

I am quite experienced with constructing mods in games other than 7DTD and very thorough when providing acknowledgment to people for each and every component of their work I utilize, so I hope that wouldn't be a concern. On the other hand, I am well aware that some people don't care to have their original work co-opted and/or "watered down" in the first place, so I fully understand if you object.

 

Either way, thanks again for your willingness to share this mod with the community.

[FlowerChild]

Well, I can safely say that was the most enjoyable month or so I've had playing a mod since my first run with JA 1.13 back in the day.

 

Whoa. Old school. Respect

 

When I saw the "JA" above I thought "wait a second...he can't mean Jagged Alliance can he?" as I don't think that's been a common acronym in twenty years or so. Googled 1.13, turned out you did mean what I thought you did, much coolness.

 

On the other hand, I am well aware that some people don't care to have their original work co-opted and/or "watered down" in the first place, so I fully understand if you object.

 

Yeah, I'm really not down with that kind of thing due to a lot of bad past experience man. I really don't mind you checking out the stuff I've done and using it as a reference (not really concerned with acknowledgement, so don't worry about that), but would really prefer to stay away from any form of copy/pasting if you intend to release publicly.

 

Right now it's rather "whatever" to begin with given we're just talking .xml mods, but I'm suspecting that 7 Days modding will open up more in the future and allow greater possibilities for code-based modifications, and I don't really want to set a precedent here given that.

 

Either way, thanks again for your willingness to share this mod with the community.

 

You're welcome man! Glad to hear you had such a good time with it

[BloodDeacon]

Whoa. Old school. Respect

 

When I saw the "JA" above I thought "wait a second...he can't mean Jagged Alliance can he?" as I don't think that's been a common acronym in twenty years or so. Googled 1.13, turned out you did mean what I thought you did, much coolness.

 

 

 

Yeah, I'm really not down with that kind of thing due to a lot of bad past experience man. I really don't mind you checking out the stuff I've done and using it as a reference (not really concerned with acknowledgement, so don't worry about that), but would really prefer to stay away from any form of copy/pasting if you intend to release publicly.

 

Right now it's rather "whatever" to begin with given we're just talking .xml mods, but I'm suspecting that 7 Days modding will open up more in the future and allow greater possibilities for code-based modifications, and I don't really want to set a precedent here given that.

 

 

 

You're welcome man! Glad to hear you had such a good time with it

 

I appreciate that. I erred in that I should have specified that my main intention with respect to your code is simply to serve as a style template for my own, since your project appears to bear the most resemblance to what I intend to produce (I'm looking at tweaking the existing game progression and difficulty, rather than adding new toys, etc.), and I particularly like the balance of your loot system in comparison to what the standard game presents. To be honest, I'm a bit too obsessed with detail to simply drop someone's code without parsing it line by line to see if it fits my specifications, and I probably shouldn't be so lazy with my first 7DTD project to use anyone else's code directly.

 

So in lieu of directly copying blocks of your code, do you mind if I use them as templates for my own work? Please don't hesitate to say no. I can absolutely go in a different direction entirely if this sounds shady or otherwise makes you uncomfortable.

[zackss]

reason for post. when I die and respawn, my tool belt is gone but my back pack is still full the first time I open it, thus allowing me to exploit it and open a chest save the best loot in chest and tool belt before closing ( it anything still in pack when I close 1st time is the poofed away)

this is obviously a BTGB game breaking exploit. Anyone else have this problem.... cause im too much a wussy to just destroy my own gear if I can save it.

I definitely haven't seen anything like that.

It seems to be a default bug when using "Delete All on Death". The first time you open your inventory all your stuff will be there and if you move it to somewhere other than your inventory (the ground, a chest, etc.) it won't be deleted. As soon as you close it (or switch to the character screen) it will delete.

 

From your first post it looks like the drop on death options are supposed to be kept default so they wouldn't run into this bug.

[FlowerChild]

Just a quick note that I reviewed the files, and it looks like the previous version of BTGB should work fine under 11.5 without any additional changes.

[FlowerChild]

And same for 11.6. Previous version of mod is fine.

[Oragepoilu]

Oh, I totally forgot about this mod.

 

I had a great time using BTW in minecraft like a year ago, even if I gave up because I didn't had enough time to play for a while.

 

I'll give this a try and hope this will bring me some fun. I often see good thing from you. Even if the lack of re-spawn will make me hate you for sure.

[kannbaba]

Even if the lack of re-spawn will make me hate you for sure.

 

and the lack of crossbow

and having lost all default crafting skills (and being have to nib the books from impossibru feral dog ridden cities)

and %25 loot yield

and no firearm craft (except shotgun)

and no bed respawn...

 

the list goes on

[kannbaba]

hey FlowerChild,

 

what surprises await us in your A12 patch? i heard rumors that you'll nerf the bike

[FlowerChild]

hey FlowerChild,

 

what surprises await us in your A12 patch? i heard rumors that you'll nerf the bike

 

Hehe...I haven't even booted up A12 yet, but will likely do so this weekend. There are so many changes in the changelog that I can't really get a good feel for how the game plays yet, and will definitely want to put some time into stock before deciding how I'll move forward

 

But yeah, I'm not really a fan of the whole bike thing, so that's one I'll certainly be looking at closely.

[Burntcheese]

Hehe...I haven't even booted up A12 yet, but will likely do so this weekend. There are so many changes in the changelog that I can't really get a good feel for how the game plays yet, and will definitely want to put some time into stock before deciding how I'll move forward

 

But yeah, I'm not really a fan of the whole bike thing, so that's one I'll certainly be looking at closely.

 

In my opinion, the bike is definitely better than wolves. *Ba dum tss*

[FlowerChild]

Responding to question from elsewhere on the forums since it's likely more relevant here

 

BTW are you planning on continuing Better than Giant Bees?

 

Good question

 

I honestly found with alpha 12 + always run zombies, I essentially got the level of challenge I was looking for, without making any additional changes, and wound up playing a 38 day game (or something around there) without feeling the usual urge to tweak all the things.

 

Sure, there's a few things I could do here and there to refine things like scrappable leather, and all the other odds and ends, but for the most part, alpha 12 is probably the most fun I've had with stock since I started playing.

 

So, what I suspect I'm likely to do is sit out this particular version and wait for the next to see what happens. Stock is already starting to get watered down again with stuff like the elimination of the forge book, and I know if the Pimps add the ability to code modifications in the future, I'll be all over that. Also, a number of things about worldgen were changed with Alpha 12, making the kind of stuff I was doing with biome progression less feasible than previously, as I don't have as fine control over biome frequency anymore (it's now related to world height in any given area).

 

Right now, I suspect what I'd be doing would mostly come down to *very* minor tweaks to smooth things out, and honestly, with the aforementioned game I mentioned above, I think I've gotten my fill of 7 Days goodness for now, whereas I normally have to mod it in order for that to happen.

 

For those looking for a BTGB level of hardcore in stock right now, I *highly* recommend trying a game with default settings for everything, and always run zombies turned on. Seriously: while it's a very different experience, it's some very good times that may require several changes of shorts

[Xamllew]

Ah, thanks for the answer. I'm glad to hear that you might get back into it for A13, I hope that planks, logs, and sticks can at least be modded back in when they remove them. I haven't done a long playthrough past a few days in A12 but I suppose you're right that the progression is much better since quality and proper levelling are in, I still prefer some of the recipes changed in BTGB but I can just copy those in.

[FlowerChild]

Ah, thanks for the answer. I'm glad to hear that you might get back into it for A13, I hope that planks, logs, and sticks can at least be modded back in when they remove them. I haven't done a long playthrough past a few days in A12 but I suppose you're right that the progression is much better since quality and proper levelling are in, I still prefer some of the recipes changed in BTGB but I can just copy those in.

 

Well, I certainly haven't given up on 7 Days no, however my inspiration for modding largely comes from trying to get the gameplay experiences I'm looking for as a player, so if that's provided by stock, and my ability to improve things beyond that point is limited by the modding capabilities of the game (there's a ton of stuff I'd like to do if I had the ability to create code mods), then there's just not a lot of incentive there

 

Right now I feel I'd just be going through the "must update the mod" motions rather than bringing anything substantial to the table.

 

And yeah, I can certainly hear you on the recipes and such. I took a number of notes on things I wanted to change as I played A12 stock, but IMO, it really didn't add up to anything significant enough to make it worthwhile this time around.

 

Who knows though, I may feel inspired to start up another game during A12, at which point it'll be highly likely that I mod it as I go, and will be sure to post back here if that's the case.