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On 5/5/2024 at 7:15 PM, Unamelable said:

A game that positions itself as coop multiplayer has a useless barrier to player play style choices.

In any co-op game that is designed around specialization within a team there will also be an aspect of negotiation between those team members on who is going to specialize on what. If you don't like to negotiate what your designated play style will be to help the team then don't play a team-focused game. Figuring out who is going to play which role at the very beginning is critical so that everyone can focus on progressing the specific skills they need for their chosen play style. There is no barrier to what you can choose other than what you can agree upon with your friends and I wouldn't call that a useless barrier. It is emergent gameplay at its finest. The game doesn't force any negotiation scripts upon players or even gray out choices once each player decides what they will do. The rules of negotiating roles is 100% determined by....wait for it....cooperation of the team.  The game only sets the stage for a group of friends to hammer out the details of what they are going to do together and what each member's responsibilities will be. I can't imagine a better position for a co-op multiplayer game to place itself in. Its part of why my group enjoys the game so much-- particularly on subsequent playthroughs where we all want to try roles we didn't play the last time. It provides extremely powerful replay value.

On 5/5/2024 at 7:15 PM, Unamelable said:

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I like the asymmetrical design of it. If everything was equally expensive no matter what tree you chose then people wouldn't play the game in all its variety. They would always take the most optimal skills and quickly tire of the game. I'm glad that this game simply makes going cross-attribute more expensive rather than impossible like some games do. It seems like you just don't like the expense and how long it takes to be able to afford all the skills you want that reside in different attribute branches. The answer is going to have to be to mod or use the giveselfxp command or change the xp earning settings to gain skill points faster and mitigate the costs you don't enjoy.

I do think it would be cool if there were a tool that made the perk trees modular so you could easily rearrange perks and put them in different trees--gather the ones you like together into a single branch and then when you started that game the perks would be rearranged in the manner you desired. That could be fun to experiment with.

On 5/5/2024 at 7:15 PM, Unamelable said:

A game that positions itself as coop multiplayer has a useless barrier to player play style choices.

In any co-op game that is designed around specialization within a team there will also be an aspect of negotiation between those team members on who is going to specialize on what. If you don't like to negotiate what your designated play style will be to help the team then don't play a team-focused game. Figuring out who is going to play which role at the very beginning is critical so that everyone can focus on progressing the specific skills they need for their chosen play style. There is no barrier to what you can choose other than what you can agree upon with your friends and I wouldn't call that a useless barrier. It is emergent gameplay at its finest. The game doesn't force any negotiation scripts upon players or even gray out choices once each player decides what they will do. The rules of negotiating roles is 100% determined by....wait for it....cooperation of the team.  The game only sets the stage for a group of friends to hammer out the details of what they are going to do together and what each member's responsibilities will be. I can't imagine a better position for a co-op multiplayer game to place itself in. Its part of why my group enjoys the game so much-- particularly on subsequent playthroughs where we all want to try roles we didn't play the last time. It provides extremely powerful replay value.

On 5/5/2024 at 7:15 PM, Unamelable said:

To level up skills you need to pump the main skill, it would seem to sound logical. But in one branch there is a pattern of skills that does not apply to the rest. That is, if you want to save skill points for effective skills, you will have to stick to a given playstyle in advance.

It's called asymmetrical design. It prevents you from being powerful in ALL effective skills too early in the game. You are strong in some areas of your choice and weak in other areas by your choice until later in the game when you finally have enough points to become strong in every effective skill. This design promotes specialization when playing on a team and for single player provides many different paths of progression to experience over many playthroughs meaning that the game won't feel completely the same every time you play. In some games, once you start down a career path for your character other branches become unselectable. In this game they just become more expensive.

On 5/5/2024 at 7:15 PM, Unamelable said:

Let's consider the main branch of the progression, It is responsible for increasing the level of other skills, increasing the damage on the head, and increasing the chance of critical damage to the given weapons from this branch of skills. From level 1 through level 5, you spend one point each. That's 4. From 6 to 8 you spend two point each. That's 6. From level 9 to 10, you spend three points each. That 6. In total you have to spend 16 points for a specific skill branch to unlock all other skills to be available to upgrade.

Yes, but you are not spending 16 points first and then maxing out the associated perks one at a time. You can begin to improve the individual perks right away. In fact you can be very successful until pretty far in the game only going 3 ranks into each perk. You could stop there and then focus on another branch for a time. There is no reason to have to max out everything in one area before starting on another.

On 5/5/2024 at 7:15 PM, Unamelable said:

And that's when the system starts to collapse. The game deliberately limits the player to 1 point per level-up. You can of course use items such as nerd glasses or grandpa's drink, but you will get them randomly or in the mid-end game. Plus their crafting is very expensive and not justified. So instead of leveling skills, the game artificially limits the style of the player to his main skill. It would seem like every player on the team has his own man, right? Who thought a pre-installed set-skill was a good idea. For example, I do not want to be forced to take stealth skills that are useless in this game, or be limited in defense from - because of robotics skills.

The system doesn't collapse. It just doesn't progress as fast as you seem to want it to. If you are looking for a faster progression, increase the xp you earn in the options. Press F1 and type giveselfxp 500000 and start out with extra skill points to mitigate the costs you don't like. You call it an artificial limit but you seem like you would be okay with the system if it was less expensive to cross over to other branches. So it isn't that you think the system is artificial. It is that you think it is too expensive and takes too long (mid-end game) to get all the skill points you need to max out all the most effective perks that you want which are scattered across several different progression branches.

On 5/5/2024 at 7:15 PM, Unamelable said:

16 points can easily level up 3 skilts of 5 each. That is a weighty figure that no one would not want to waste. For example, would I want to be an intellectual with traders, defend myself with spears, shoot pistols while specializing in extracting resources from animals? The game won't give me that unless I spend a ton of points on the main skill that artificially limits players and their playstyle.

Yes. Its expensive to be that particular character--probably because that character would be completely OP to have early on in the game. But if that's what you want then take measures to make it happen for yourself. Use the command menu or mod the game to change the 4 skill point reward for doing the first quest to a 40 skill point reward. That will offset the extra cost of doing a cross attribute character in the way you want.

All that being said.... I think it would be cool if there were a tool that made the perk trees modular so you could easily rearrange perks and put them in different trees--gather the ones you like together into a single branch and then when you started that game the perks would be rearranged in the manner you desired. That could be fun to experiment with.