58 minutes ago, meganoth said:To sum it up: If you have no problem at all with getting water the first days, you probably are not a typical player. AND even you probably value a jar of water in loot more now than you did in A20.
I'm guessing you don't know this, but maybe you do... in A21, would you qualify as a typical player in terms of crafting? It sounds like you craft a lot. Do you know (or can you guess, if you don't know) how much the typical player actually crafts in A21, especially in early game? Are they in need of all that duct tape? I mean, yes, an archer will use a lot of glue for arrows, but for anyone else, are they really in need of anywhere near as much duct tape for crafting as you are using? Maybe that is the norm. I don't know. I do know that many people craft a lot but I'm also sure many do not for one reason or another. I'm just curious what would be considered normal for the typical player. The reason I bring it up is that, as I mentioned before, if you do craft a lot, you're of course going to struggle more with water. If you do not craft much, water isn't going to be a struggle at all. And I have a hard time believing most players are crafting all their armor or other things that need duct tape in the first week when water scarcity is supposedly intended even though you are doing so. So it makes me think that most people aren't going to have the difficulty with it that you describe. I could be wrong, though.
As far as mid- or late-game, this was something I touched on earlier as well. At least according to Roland, the idea behind the water changes besides just removing jars was that you have water scarcity in the first week or so and then overcome it. So, if that's the goal, most duct tape use for crafting ends up being things in mid- to late-game and so wouldn't be an issue based on the intended goal. You should have plenty of water coming in, whether through looting or dew collectors, to handle crafting by that point if you really are intended to overcome the intended scarcity. If you don't, then that suggests it isn't balanced the way they intended (assuming Roland is correct about their goals). But that's a different issue than whether or not water in the first week is an issue.
I'll certainly agree that if you are using bows and crafting arrows, you are going to have much more of a water challenge in the early game than someone who doesn't. But as this is only one "class", it doesn't mean that things are working well just because it impacts that one group of people if it doesn't really impact others. I'll also agree that if you craft a lot of stuff that needs duct tape in the early game, you're going to need more water and it could be a challenge to keep up. But as I asked, is that what a typical player does? Or is it a smaller group of players who do that much crafting instead of getting stuff from loot (or even from the trader)? If it's only a smaller group who does this, then again, it doesn't mean things are working well just because it impacts that group and no one else.
I do get that a challenge for new players that doesn't impact veterans is a normal and acceptable challenge in a game. And I would agree that at least for the first game or two for a new player, water may be a challenge. But I don't go out of my way for water and still have more than enough without needing any dew collectors. I don't min/max specifically. Yes, I quest/loot a lot but that's just because it's what I enjoy doing in the early game. Mining with a stone shovel isn't my idea of fun and building with limited resources so I can't build something really interesting isn't much fun for me either, so I quest and loot until I have better tools and more resources to make those activities more interesting and fun for me. But I don't go out with an intent of getting water. I just loot everything and bring it back and then I boil whatever murky water I find every so often. I rarely even drink anything I find in loot. Tea, coffee, etc. just ends up going into storage and never comes back out in my games. And I don't normally craft those to save on water. I normally only start "upgrading" my water when I can eventually make mineral water. So I'm not min/maxing in that way either, and I'd consider that a "normal" thing for people to do to save on water rather than some kind of "exploit". Yes, my way of playing is different from those who don't loot much. But I still think, as explained previously, that water is easy enough to find with even looting one POI per day unless you loot certain ones that don't have much chance of having water (no toilets, or only one, no water coolers, etc.). As a last note, I will agree that if you do get hit a lot and are using meds a lot (or the auto-heal perk), you're going to go through water very quickly and if you eat things that drain water like charred meat, you'll also go through water very quickly. These will of course influence how much of a challenge water is for you and why a new player may struggle more than a more seasoned player who knows to avoid those things when possible.