3 hours ago, zeaposs said:Nope, it's learn-by-loot. But why can we have parallel learn-by-use? Personally I really like the new system of what can we craft progression, but why we progress both by looting and by crafting (even if learning by crafting/using would be slower)?
If you refer to the fact that you need xp for progressing in perks then you are forgetting that it would have to be called learn-by-loot-shoot-craft-harvest-blockupgrade. Factually that makes all worthwile activities xp generators and the way of progression is still perks.
Yes, even crafting in workstation gives small but diminishing returns again and it may have been this way even in previous alphas. It never will be used as major xp source though because TFP saw how bad it was for the game with people crafting stone axes through the night. Even many proponents of learn-by-doing do not want this back.
If on the other hand you just wanted to express your feeling that the game puts too much emphasis on the trader-loot-loop I even agree with you in parts but I don't want to muddy the issues.
Crafting progression by the way has principally not even changed from before since finding recipes or finding magazines is all learn-by-loot. The only principal difference now is that the fast track of getting recipes by perks has vanished.
3 hours ago, zeaposs said:The problem is that crafting itself is being weirdly rebalanced to a point, that you could completely skip it.
TFP at the moment is rebalancing in an experimental inside an alpha version. In Version B313 it seemed that looting did not matter, I could craft a q5 tier1 turret while I did loot nothing above q3 tier0 stone stuff. In B317 now crafting may be the loser again. Is it weird? I don't know, I would say from previous alphas that is the normal effect of how TFP does its balancing.
3 hours ago, zeaposs said:
For me it's all about the immersion - there are many changes needed for the game (like those glass jars) that feel specifically unfair for someone, who mostly does crafting, but in reality it just makes game feel...weird. Like seriosuly, there's no way to bring extra water from the lake? Are people in zombie apocalypse that stupid? Even if not for purifying it, I would rather take some murky water with me in a piece of plastic as a last resort than run like a madman to the river each time I want to drink.
How immersive was it that you could loot gas and gas cans would materialize without fail? I tell you, it was totally immersive because you were used to it. Did you every complain about it? In all my years here on the forum I have not seen a single post complaining that gas cans materializing when you need them was an immersion problem. Everyone accepted that you just had containers when you need them and that they were simply not represented in the game.
So, my advice, don't think about it, in 2 weeks you will be used to it and it becomes natural, just like using an acid bottle and not getting an empty bottle back. Just like eating a meat stew and not getting any container back.
The only real immersion issue is that you can't really get water from lakes. But even to this you will get used to, just like you got used to that you never need to really use the toilet. Or that you can't brew coffee in coffee machines, that lamps still work but refrigerators not. That you can built a working intelligent drone but install no weapons, that you can built a 4x4 but not add a machine gun on top. That you can't simply glue your weapon flashlight mod to your helmet. All of this could be immersion breaking if you let it.
3 hours ago, zeaposs said:And don't get me wrong - in most cases I really like A21. And I agree that water rebalancing was needed. It was just overshot. Especially because we have pushed water gathering to water looting (murky water). Again that looting, why, why, why do we need to push everything there? I agree that it works at the beggining, but we need a proper early-mid or mid-late game replacement for that!
Dew collectors are okay'ish, but as mentioned in another thread, there should be a way to upgrade it. This way we'll be able to yield more water without making too many ingame objects/using up space.
Space is irrelevant. I am happy that I have new necessary objects I need to place somewhere in my base because I build for function. If you build for beauty just put them outside on a field and they won't impede you in your artistic expression.
But I agree that a dew collector upgrade would be very nice. Though I also would predict that in mid or late game a single player will check the collectors only when he needs water and that will be twice a week at most if he isn't into explosive arrow production.
And I also agree that the trader-quest-loop is overdone. My solution is reduction of the trader rewards. But I don't expect any changes in that regard in the next few patches. That is a longterm goal.
3 hours ago, zeaposs said:Personally I would bring back glass jars or any other water container, but instead I would heavily impact the cost of water making:
Just stop there. Lots of people come here and post their prefered scheme. But first of all it IS premature, we are in the second week of experimental. TFP will first try to make the current scheme work and only if it fails horribly will think about a replacement months from now.
Secondly lots of people don't even spend a few minutes getting the kinks out of their schemes and post broken ideas. Even if you DID think about carefully about it for a while your scheme will get lost in all the other broken schemes posted.
And there is more: TFP said that **one** of several objectives was to get glass jars in line with other containers in the game, i.e. like any other container they should simply not be in the game. IF you propose any scheme that brings back glass jar now, you will be ignored. Vanishing glass jars is not just a result of the redesign, it is one of the reasons for the redesign.
3 hours ago, zeaposs said:- glass jars are not reusable or have limited usage counter
- you need a water filte (coal in early stage?)r in campfire to purity water
- you need a glass tools/blowpipe in forge to create glass jars/increase craft cost.
Based on above, we could make water filters have durability like car batteries and could remake them using coal. Maybe this way we could add more water filters to dew collector and increase water yield?
That's exacly why i bought the game in the first place
. And it makes me a bit sad, that mine main gameplay loop, that is in the subtitle of the game is being pushed to a sidejob.
TL;DR
IMO overall changes in A21 for water might be something good, but are a bit overshot. It's all about finding a viable replacement for water production in early-mid to mid-late that doesn't rely solely on looting (immersion killer) or dew collector farms (looks bad, too many objects in game, takes up space).
PS.
If someone is not happy with saying, that looting is immersion killer in zombie apo game - I'm just referring to a fact, that I can magically find a full jar of water inside of the toilet bowl, but I'm unable to get water from the lake just outide with pretty much anything that could be water container. Looting is fine, it's immersion killer in the current water management crisis
