[The Endgame: Will There Ever Be One?]

On 5/25/2022 at 8:43 AM, BFT2020 said:

 

For me, it always changes.  Once it was when I died.  Another time it was when I died during a BM horde.  Another time was when I fully upgraded the house I was living it.  Another time was when I had looted out every city / town location within 3 km of me.

 

Sometimes I have a specific end goal in mind before I fire up my new world, other times I decided on what it would be after about a week into the game.

 

I like this as I can create my end goal conditions each time I play; not have a defined ending.

 

And this is what type of "Endgame" I thought 7 Days To Die might have. The player defines it, not necessarily the game itself.

 

 

On 5/25/2022 at 4:51 PM, meganoth said:

 

When players use the word "endgame", they usually don't mean the point in time when they end the game but they mean the last part of the game where often grind is used to prolong the game. In many games the endgame is also the part of the game where the gameplay changes. In a typical MMO there is a distinctive endgame where no xp and skill progression happens anymore but gear is advanced in a very grindy game loop.

 

 

True indeed. And this is what I was trying to find out when it came to the route 7 Days is going in. Level 300 is (actually far beyond) the point where there is no more xp and skill progression so to speak. That's why I put that out there.

 

On 5/25/2022 at 6:01 PM, Jinx_DG said:

... if you just focus on... extra special sauce the pimps inject... exciting surprise.

 

 

And here I thought he was talking about the corner of 45th & Broadway.... 

 

Stay off the corner my friend...unless you've got Ho-Talents!  Just remember, they don't work on rarity!

 

[Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow]

On 5/23/2022 at 8:34 PM, Roland said:

Part of the problem feeding your fear is that people are imagining perking into something and suddenly those are the only magazines they ever find. That is not true. It is a slight boost to the probability. You are going to still find a wide variety of magazines. In fact, I suspect that some people will complain that their supposed boost doesn't seem to be working. @Paiper Zombee amirite? lol

 

Relax.   We know some people don't want the change and we know some people are worried about how it will affect multiplayer. These things will be considered but the change is going to happen (already happened actually) and the devs want to see the player base try it on for size. I have to believe that of those people who signed on for Early Access for the purpose of witnessing the development of the game, they'd like to try it out too and render their own feedback based on their play of it.

 

All right now...don't get a whoopin talking that trash. lol.

 

That situation with the Ho-Talents has been re-evaluated. I thought it would effect rare items and getting them to drop more often. It turns out (it seems) that rare still stays rare, you just get a chance at better quality and quantity. So Crack-a-Book is still Lack-A-Book in that situation.

 

On 5/23/2022 at 9:41 PM, Roland said:

 

A bit. I've had to start over a few times due to incompatible builds so I haven't gone super deep. Even though the change only affects crafting recipes it was really hard to wrap my brain around it. I kept going to the perk menu and then realized that that wasn't where I was going to be able to upgrade my tools lol.  I felt like a bit of a noob. It isn't hard to understand at all-- its quite intuitive and you feel like you are finding bits of information here and there and piecing it together to learn how to make something new or something better. It emphasizes the gap between the old world and the present apocalyptic world. The old world has all the secrets and you have to find them in order to learn how to increase your tech level.

 

 

Its fun honestly. But, then, I'm apparently one of the few who actually enjoys scavenging in the game. You know how TFP operates: when they introduce something new they plaster the game with it so magazines are plentiful. You find them everywhere. That might, of course, get nerfed a bit as people play and report back but it is fun because the magazines feel valuable and you get them at a consistent rate. It is engaging from the sense of atmosphere that I mentioned in the last section but in practice it is the same as finding books. You click to read and move on. It can be a bother I guess if you have to click on ten or so at a time to read them all but then again not so much of a bother that I'm not going to click

 

As for finding what I've perked into, it is definitely a subtle boost. I seem to be finding a wide variety of magazines even though I perked into spears. I'm not frustrated for a lack of Sharp Sticks in loot but I wouldn't mind finding more so I really think that the boost is not going to cause us to only find certain magazines at the expense of others. It is simply going to help us not feel the frustration of never finding what we need. 

 

 

I can't say yet for the whole game but at least in the early game I have been mostly crafting above what I find most of the time. I did find an orange level iron pick in a car on day one but as we all know it would be stamina and hunger suicide to use it anyway at this point so it is in a chest for later. I think this will depend on how much looting someone does. If they are playing with the purpose to grind magazines as quickly as possible I think they will always probably craft well ahead of what they loot except for occasional lucky finds. If they don't loot at all and go up in level doing other things then for sure they won't be able to craft things better than they can find.

 

 

I've already said that until something is implemented in the game we aren't going to reveal details. So just like I can say that there is a new workstation and a new quest type I can tell you that there is a number.

 

On 5/24/2022 at 4:04 PM, Roland said:

 

I think you and others are assuming a stronger perk boost to magazines than exists. Even perked into a couple of skills that match magazines you still find a wide variety of magazines. The boost is really more of a safety net against never finding the magazines that you really want. I'm not against an option to merge allies' perk boosts into one team boost for anyone that loots. I just don't really think it is as necessary as some are worrying it is. You have no idea whether there will be any significant disadvantage for those who don't loot and rely on their friends to bring back what they need-- you are just afraid that might be the case. If someone is out looting and finds 3 magazines that align with what the person is home building wants and 4 magazines for themselves at the end of the day then there isn't really that large of a disadvantage. I think teams will know more after actually playing with it how it will affect their dynamics. I guess the big question remains, how often were people crafting the weapons they perked into anyway? They spent their perks in their chosen specialization but was that to get the bonuses for the weapon or so they could craft it? I guess if they always crafted their own weapons then this is going to be a big change for them but if they usually had someone on their team offer to buy them their weapon of choice they just saw at the trader or found in a treasure room or received as a quest reward then there will be no real difference for them. They will still be able to use the skill points they earned by building and mining to improve their skill in their weapon.

 

 

 

On 5/25/2022 at 1:10 AM, Roland said:

 

But it is limited to learning recipes. You are not improving your skills by random means. In A20, if you take miner 69er and mother lode, for example, they improved your block damage and increased the yields you got from harvesting as well as grant you recipes to craft higher tier tools. In A21, if you take miner 69er and mother lode you will still improve your block damage and increase the yields you get from harvesting and probably 69er will be the one to give a slight boost to finding tool magazines in loot. The skill will just not unlock recipes any more.

 

But there are lots of ways to get higher tier tools. Someone else can craft one for you. Someone can bring you back one that they found in loot. You can buy one at the trader. However you get your tools, you will deterministically be able to control how skilled you are with them just like A20. The only thing you won't be able to do is craft them yourself until you read enough magazines.

 

So in looking at the perks is the common building blocks of character development the number of recipes we know or is it the abilities and skills we gain from perks. Remember that all of the tier 2 and tier 3 recipes were learned by looting in A20 already. So the new method is really just a step forward from that. We are learning recipes from schematics but in little bits at a time instead of all at once from one schematic. But I'd say that if your team was able to function when recipes were learned by acquiring schematics they will be able to adapt to recipes being learned by acquiring magazines. Non-looters will still be able to perk up their skills just like normal and be reliant upon team mates to share with them the tools and such that they find just like happens now.

 

On 5/24/2022 at 9:51 AM, JCrook1028 said:

Nope, the system only applies to crafting. Not how effective you are at mining with the tool or shooting with the gun.

 

Put all these here just so everyone can know how this new system will work and how it will effect what it will effect. These were all of my concerns and it looks like the direction I thought things were going in (i.e. it would've sucked to have to go read books 1-5 to learn how to create a forge,  books 6-10 to create a workbench, etc) is not the direction things are going in. 

 

 

On 5/26/2022 at 2:05 PM, Adam the Waster said:

F I R E

also i hate the flashlight model

 

 

This is hot.

 

And now, I'm like Dracula in Castlevania Symphony of the Night. "Enough Talk. Have at you!"

 

Bring this new system forward so that we might undertake it personally. I'm ready to touch it like some grass outside and see how it feels.

[The Endgame: Will There Ever Be One?]

On 5/21/2022 at 11:32 AM, meganoth said:

 

No, 300 is a limit that nobody expects you to reach. Well, you can do it, but the current game is finished far earlier for most players: When they have the best gun and armor they can get for their specialization and at the highest quality, found all the books they wanted and have a base that withstands even a group of demolishers. Then most start a fresh game, in a new alpha, or a with a mod they didn't play for a while.

 

The endgame will happen at that time (at your choosing) and is probably about that fight I told you about.

If you want to continue after that, you surely will be able to, but apart from building fancy houses or  bigger and bigger horde bases there is nothing much to do then.

 

"Endgame" was never properly defined and is something different for each player. If you for example expect an endgame MMO-style then you probably have to wait for mods to add that.

Some mods already provide contents for a longer playtime, some eventually might also add endless grind-loops like Diablo or whatever else you are looking for.

 

 

 

 

Thank you Meganoth. This is what I was trying to get an answer to.  And it sounds about right for the path this game follows.

 

I will argue that "Endgame" is very properly defined. It just has a lot of different perspectives, as you already know. I was just trying to find out what perspective 7 Days To Die's endgame was coming from.

 

 

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

On 5/21/2022 at 11:30 AM, KhaineGB said:

This is why I suggested lowering the amount of levels and adding the ability to buy them via skill points.

Because not everyone wants to worry about looting to get the stuff they need.

 

 

On 5/21/2022 at 5:26 PM, Oliwhere said:

 

From what I understood, they said that the magazines will also be available from the traders as quest rewards and offer them for sale. For their trading inventory, I would assume, that all magazines are equally likely to appear for sale.

 

So you could still do your looting / questing / fighting and then after visiting the trader, buy some magazines for your friends skills from the excess dukes you made. Probably the leveling for your friends at home base won't be as fast, but they could still get to the point of leveling their own specialization's crafting skill over time.

 

Let us hope this is true when it comes to the traders and that they will offer a variety of all books and not have set their table set to focus on the player and how they've spec'd instead. 

 

The conversation has mostly been about weapons, but this sounds like this change will also extend to skills as well. If you like mining and building, but can't stand looting and killing, that's too bad. If you want to get better at mining and building you still need to, as they used to say in those commercials back in the day, "Read The Book". And how long is it going to take for the looter (who will more than likely NOT be perked into mining) to find those mining books and bring them back for the miner? And will that even work past the first set of books? Hopefully books and magazines will be universal to their perk, meaning all one needs to do is collect 50-100 books for the perk and it's all good. But if the books aren't universal, i.e. only Books 1-5 will only appear at Rank 1 of the perk, while Books 6-10 will only appear at Rank 2 of the perk and so on...then this is going to create the situation that was mentioned in this topic where the looters will have to become jacks of all trades so that they're able to loot all the books that the others who don't loot will need. 

 

 

On 5/21/2022 at 5:31 PM, Roland said:

I know it is human nature to fear the worst case scenario but you guys can relax a bit. Your fears are unfounded. You find a wide variety of magazines all the time. What you perk into shows up a bit more often but it isn’t overwhelming. 
 

There is nothing that I have witnessed to make me think that I’m getting other mags less because I perked into archery. If someone is the primary looter they will bring home plenty of mags outside of their perks. 
 

Most of the paper drops in book shelves and piles have been replaced by mags so they are much more satisfying. Book stores will definitely be treasure troves of lost knowledge but….what’s wrong with that?  Seems logical. I would even say that when a book store is found, the entire team could gather to go through and split up the book shelves. I can’t imagine anyone hating looting so fiercely that they wouldn’t share in the spoils of a bookstore.

 

This change won’t be everyone’s cup of tea obviously but I think a good number of people will find it fun and fresh. 

 

12 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Yes. All magazines drop randomly for every player. When you take a perk that corresponds to a particular magazine then you will tend to find more of that magazine but you still find a wide variety. It is a subtle change. A lot of people fearing that people who hate to loot will have a huge disadvantage but I think their teammates will still be bringing home magazines they can use-- especially if they go to a location known to have those types of magazines.

 

Okay Roland...I'm trusting you when you say that you're getting other mags outside your perk on a regular enough basis. It'll make what I said above null and void, unless it's the Book 1-5 only found at Perk Rank 1 and Books 6-10 only found at Perk Rank 2. And it's also good to hear that bookstores are getting updated to actually have *gasp* books and magazines!

 

 

On 5/21/2022 at 8:42 PM, Laz Man said:

 

My best guess is because the previous iteration was mostly insignificant?  For example, apart from crafting multiple junk turrets (INT playthrough), I personally never crafted other weapons / armor because I could always find better in loot (or at the trader) before I could find the parts needed for them let alone being perked high enough to have the higher quality.

 

To me, that is a system that needs attention and would need improvement.

I always disliked this because it's most often the issue. You can buy or possibly find the items that you want before you ever get the parts to make them, ESPECIALLY when it comes to junk turrets. I've always wondered why, once spec'd into a specific weapon type, one didn't learn how to make the parts for those said weapons as part of the perk. To use World of Warcraft as an example it would be like taking enchanting, but finding out that you can't break stuff down to turn them into the materials needed for enchanting, you have to go find them in loot or on vendors.

 

 

On 5/21/2022 at 9:20 PM, Roland said:

The reasons for the change that I have gotten from Madmole:

 

He wants the design have players move through each tech stage and not so easily skip over one or have one barely be significant.

 

He wants the crafting progression to be longer and to not double or triple up. No longer will being able to craft a blue stone tool mean you can automatically craft a blue iron or steel tool. The player has to learn how to craft every item separately and improve their crafting for that item separately. 
 

He wants more rewarding loot and the magazines fill out the containers. They are an exciting reward to get and there are so many varieties and duplicates that you need that it keeps looting exciting for a long time. 
 

It encourages more scavenging. Containers that used to quickly become boring and irrelevant boxes of worthless junk now often have a magazine.

 

He heard a lot of feedback about people not liking crafting recipes tied to the attributes and he agreed so he wanted to decouple crafting from the attribute trees. 
 

Those are what I’ve heard him say specifically. 
 

 

 

Thank you Roland for this insight. It's good to know where this change is coming from and why. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Roland said:

Weapons and tools should have a finite lifespan. I don’t think they should degrade to lower quality tiers. They just should become unrepairable. Maybe you can repair something twice but after that the repair kit doesn’t work and the item is only good for parts. This would be a significant change to improve both crafting and looting. I did a play through where I immediately scrapped repair kits and it was great. I’ll probably start that up again. Repairs for primitive stuff is fine but anything that needs a repair kit should be limited.  Think about the diamond edge mod that extends durability. Who the heck cares how long durability lasts when a single repair kit restores it to full again? 

 

Please no when it comes to weapon and tools having a finite life span. I think the system as it is is good and repair kits are fine in what they provide. I do not want to have to worry about completely rebuilding my weapons and tools every time they break. I'd never mine again. lol.

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

On 3/16/2022 at 11:02 AM, Roland said:

CONFIRMED A21 FEATURES

 

 

• Learn By Looting System
  • 23 new skills to govern crafting (photo in gallery below)
  • 23 new magazines added to loot
  • Perks no longer unlock recipes or govern crafting at all
  • The only schematics that still unlock recipes are mod attachments. 
  • Crafting skill is increased by finding and reading magazines
  • Skill increases unlock recipes at certain points as well as increase quality of crafting for items with quality
  • Each tech level has a separate range in the skill spectrum so that you have to work up through primitive tech and then iron tech and then steel tech and being able to craft a blue stone axe no long means you automatically can also craft a blue iron axe.
  •  Some skills have 100 levels but others have less depending on how many unlocks there are for recipes and quality tiers.
  • A new skill page showing your progress has been added to the player interface (photo in gallery below)
  • Skill magazines can be found, bought, and/or received as quest rewards. The topic of the magazine matches the location you would expect to find it in the world.
  • Perks now govern the probability of finding like-themed magazines and parts for those recipes. Perk into shotguns and you will notice more shotgun magazines and shotgun parts appearing in the world
  • When you max out a skill, the probability bonus granted by perks for finding the corresponding magazine for that skill drops off. The magazine will still show up randomly in loot but no longer have a boost. The probability boost for finding matching parts will remain.

Uh oh...here comes one of the party poopers right now! lol

 

I'm very glad to see that A21 is shaping up to be another game changer. But what is the purpose behind "Learn By Looting?".

 

With the way the system is now, I like that I DON'T have to rely on the RNG gods to bless me. For whatever reason I ALWAYS have horrible RNG in games. I hear so many talk about how overpowered questing is and quest rewards and I immediately want to ask "What mods are you using, or what spec are you running because the only worthwhile thing I've ever gotten while questing that just changed my entire world is a bicycle." If it were not for the fact that I COULD perk up and craft my own forge, workbench, chemistry station, weapons, ammo, and other useables I'd be SOL most of the time. And this bad luck continues even once I pick up and mack out all the Ho-Perks (i.e. Lucky Looter, Better Barter, and Daring Adventurer) and slap on Lucky Looter goggles.

 

I hope I'm absolutely wrong, but this just sounds like a horrible way to go. Everyone who has ever played this beautiful game knows how rare books and magazines can be.  Even with all the Ho-Perks and loot goggles I can go into a big ol Crack-A-Book Tower or store, which is dedicated to books/magazines, and walk out with 1000 pieces of paper and 2 whole books. If Lucky Looter AND the loot goggles with their increased probability factors didn't help me out in this situation, (or in any situation when it comes to finding Rank 6 anything on my own or through vendors) I have little hope that this new A21 perk system will be any different.

 

[The Endgame: Will There Ever Be One?]

On 5/18/2022 at 8:05 PM, meganoth said:

 

That would be a multi-year project alone and the game is supposed to be released as soon as possible (which probably still means more than a year). AFAIK there were never plans to make this into a full-fledged openworld RPG, I have heard Roland warn us multiple times about not expecting too much with the story.

 

 

Ah. So technically....this could mean there will never be an "Endgame" so to speak. The game would just keep following the same routine in perpetuity until one finally makes it to level 300. Lackluster to say the least, but at least Roland has warned that it was so. 

 

[The Endgame: Will There Ever Be One?]

On 5/17/2022 at 1:53 PM, meganoth said:

Once there are bandits in the game the player will get the chance to join one of two factions and remove the other (or both). That is the planned endgame as far as I know.

 

 

That's too bad if this is true.

 

I know that Fun Pimps have been working on the Bandits for quite a while now, but I hope this isn’t the way they plan to use them. Any time I hear the whole choose ONE faction to be a part of, and the other becomes your enemy gives me been-there-done-that-World-of-Warcraft vibes. There will always be one faction that is better than the other one, leaving no real incentive to join the lesser one except to see what it’s like.

I hope the Fun Pimps take the Ultima Underworld approach to Bandits. In that game there are multiple factions from green and gray goblins, to mountainmen, to mages, to lizardmen, to undead (yep, you can befriend a faction of undead) to feral trolls. Green and gray goblins don’t like each other, but they give not a care if YOU are friends with both of their factions. You won’t get jumped by gray goblins because you’re friendly with green goblins and vice versa. Mountainmen don’t like either of the goblin factions I believe, but they have no problem if YOU are friends with those factions. And it keeps going on like this.

 

The player can and will run across hostile versions of all the non-human creatures, and even some human ones. But they are not part of their specific factions and can be killed without repercussion.

 

The only way to have the factions turn against you is if the player attacks and kills enough or all of an existing faction. Word will spread about the player’s actions throughout the abyss and eventually the player will find themselves the enemy of the state versus the still remaining factions.

 

On 5/17/2022 at 2:43 PM, Maharin said:

 

I would be happy with this.  Especially if they had some sort of slider that would allow you to quickly adjust how big each side was at the start and additional adjustments for growth rates if such a thing made sense.  One man versus army would be a cool scenario to try... repeatedly as I get used to the idea of dying regularly.

 

I think we've got this already when it comes to the Bloodmoon Horde Night. If you play solo, you're Ash vs Army of the Dead. I'll take a hard pass doing the same thing but with humans.

 

 

23 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

I doubt that bandits are gonna be challenging enough to justify 300 levels. Or even 100 tbh. As the game struggles hard with high numbers of enemies they can´t put up a huge bandit army to get more challenge for late game. And if they didn´t make a huge jump in AI development suddenly, the bandits are not gonna be a real endgame other than storywise.

 

If it´s about a challenge after gettting level 50, mods are your best chance. If it´s about story then you propably won´t need mods.

 

2 hours ago, Orclover said:

 

Thats the one thing I have always liked about my other favorite zombie game is that fighting 5 zombies can be a real fight.  At 20 zombies you have to use real tools and strategies because they arent fast but if you HAVE to get rid of them it can be a challenge with just melee weapons.  Sometimes the game throws HUNDEREDS of zombies at you.  You aint fighting that with conventional means.  You can make a plan and burn them all with a vehicle and enough planning and tools and time (molotovs do wonders).  But just going in swinging would be suicide.

 

In 7d2d they cant have too many zeds spawned at once. I think at most we dealt with a few hundred with more than max zed settings on a server and a half dozen players (the server of course did ok but our systems were screaming for mommy).  Which is a shame as having a f'nuk-ton of zeds coming at you at once that you have to survive (especially solo) is the height of survival games like this.  They have to optimize a game for minimum settings of the average single player and the limitations just get in the way.  The work around for that of course is to make tougher single zombies (glowies everywhere, lil hulk like mutants).  It is what it is, even if it isn't what we always want.

 

I can't see bandits changing that honestly.  Unless there is some massive leap of AI work coming down the pipe.  You can't have too many bandits and working the bandits to both drive cars and use guns will be an insane challenge.

 

And now we know the limitation that cripples this game in certain places. Can't have too many enemies or it will murder systems.  It makes me wonder if they can expand on the "quest" and "note" technology to  create instances so to speak. Everything else outside of that area is noted, but deactivated to allow the quest or note to spawn as many or as little zombies/others as need be. You will already fail a quest or note if you move out of their areas, so this would solve any shenanigans in trying to exploit them and have no enemy spawns in the world until that quest/note is complete. 

 

But as it stands the last thing one would want for an endgame is just another variation of Horde Night. Come on Fun Pimps. You've been working with this system for how long now? I know you can show us something innovative, different, and creative instead of same thing, different skin.

[The Endgame: Will There Ever Be One?]

17 hours ago, Maharin said:

The game ends when you are beaten unconscious by the Duke and left someplace random with minimal supplies and a raging case of bad body odor, for all the worst definitions of bad.

 

Wait...so you're telling me that the beginning of the game is actually the end? The mind boggles!

 

 

17 hours ago, SURVIVE said:

The modders will take care of it.

 

Oh I'm sure they definitely will and probably already have. lol.

 

16 hours ago, Pernicious said:

If it's not official, I'd love someone to make a mod where once you finish tier 5 quests with all traders, you have to collect a full hazmat suit and fly into an irradiated zone with a gyrocopter or the upcoming helicopter.

 

Once there, you have to fight your way through a castle, with only the guns and ammo, and first aid supplies you have on you. (5 first aid kits, or another stack of 9mm? Antibiotics? Or a stack of grenades? Choose wisely)

 

Finally, you confront the Duke, and you see it was you all along... Ah wait, no, too many drug store novels. Nah, there should be a final battle with the Duke of some sort. Credits scroll.

 

That's my hope at least.

 

 

 

Yep. Watch out for those drug store novels, they'll twist your bwain. A confrontation with The Duke is where I would think that things would lead up to. Unless I've heard incorrectly he's the one who sends the siege of creature out after you during Horde Night. How does he pull this off? Has he found a way to create and control zombies? We've already seen one of his twisted creations in the Demolisher. What else could he have at his disposal?

 

16 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

We are already past the endgame.  We failed to address the duke and woke up naked and afraid.

And like bond villains, "the duke" failed to deal with us...

 

That's a good thing for the character, bad on The Duke.

 

But I've always been curious if plans were ever discussed about an endgame or where things would go. In my personal opinion, once you get past that initial 7th day, or whichever day you hold your Bloodmoon on, it's pretty much rinse, lather, repeat until your next horde night, and the next one, and the next one. The concept of the Horde Night never changes, the zombies just get stronger leading up to Demolishers and Irradiated. So once one reaches this point, it feels like Horde Night progression ends. It would be cool to see Horde Night events, like helping to defend a vendor, or defending a POI where precious cargo will be dropped once the area is secure.

 

We've got the vendors, which provide quests and will eventually send you on to the next biome to meet the next vendor. But there are only so many vendors, they all top out at Tier V quests, and the amount of biomes to visit can be counted on one hand so even this progression hits a brick wall eventually. I like the concept of the night quests to restore power. That should be expanded upon. And bring back the random notes from the various clans that used to be in game. Where are these clans? Can we find them and join them if we do enough of their quests?  

 

Even character progression (which seems to be the driving force of this game) gets stale after a while. Once the struggle of getting the perks you need is over, there's really nothing else to drive the character to continue to improve.

 

Since this is the type of game that it is, is this all that we'll have to look forward to as the game continues onward on it's  path to gold?

[The Endgame: Will There Ever Be One?]

I'm not sure if any discussion on this has taken place before or not so if so please forgive me, but what is the plan for the endgame of 7 Days to Die? Will it ever have one given the type of game that it is?   

[Attack On The Block: A 7 Days To Die Adventure]

Greetings all. Yep. I'm about to become a thott for views as I present my 7 Days To Die series - Attack On The Block: A 7 Days To Die Adventure.

 

The series chronicles the first seven days of my character's solo existence on the classic Navazgane map. If you're in the mood for a non-tradional weapon using, somewhat educational, at times boring because you had to watch gathering but ultimately awesome 7th day Bloodmoon finale that doesn't take place in a tricked out horde base, but a regular, ordinary neighborhood, then this is a watch for you!

 

Though the series concluded it's last episode on Sunday, May 8th, I'm completely open to bringing it back for another 7 days of action. Each show is broken down into chapters so that you know where the action is and is not. I hope you all enjoy. Let me know if you'd like to see days 8-14 and thank you Fun Pimps for continuing to move forward with this
game until it finally reaches gold!

 

 

The first episode: My subscriber special full of basic things, discovery, and some botched horde events that ultimately lead into a new beginning on Episode 2.

 

 

 

 

Episode #2 Where the REAL game begins!

 

 

 

Episode #3

 

 

 

Episode #4

 

 

 

Episode #5

 

 

 

Episode #6

 

 

 

And finally, the attack on the block with Episode #7

 

 

[Is there a reason behind Zombie digging & Matrix-esque abilities?]

15 hours ago, meganoth said:

As far as I have heard the story of digging zombies it went this way: 7days originally already had zombies that could dig and they turned it off for some alphas because it didn't work like they wanted. That is why I think this case has more similarity to a bug than to a new play modus that was added to make the world look more alive.

I see. Now I understand the bug analogy. I had no idea digging was something TFP had been working on previously and were just trying to get it right. Thanks for letting me know this.

 

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

Well, actually a lot of people complained about the world feeling empty and the devs made clear that they didn't like that situation either but were constrained by performance. Feral option was one way to combat that. So actually feral sense was something the developers wanted and a lot of players wanted.

This I remember, and yes the biomes (sans the Wastelands at night) did used to feel like they were empty at times. I've noticed that has changed since A20 and that's a good thing. Still not turning on feral sense though....lol.

 

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

This is called balancing and is done while developing any game. A game works well and is well balanced if the more effort the player invests the more he gets out. "Features" that give the player safety without effort are not a good balance in a game where survival is a goal.

 

A game needs this balance to have a long "life". Why do you think Blizzard took so many pains to balance their games so painstackingly? Why do you think those games were so popular and stayed relevant for so long?

 

I agree with this, and the only light counter I have to it is that 7D2D is a type of game where the player can create their own "balance" so to speak to a certain extent. I like that ability and level of control. But balance for the sake of...well, let's just put it this way. Never put Blizzard and "balance" in the same sentence together. They did good jobs with that on everything except World of Warcraft. I played a Warlock in that game from the beginning until about two expansions ago when I finally retired from the game. And if you know anything about Warlocks and their balance history, then you'll know what road I don't want to see TFP go down and claim balance as the cause.

 

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

If I remember correctly, Faatal (who remade the AI for A17) said the no-digging feature would have to be developed anew. I assume this means that he changed the way the AI worked from ground up and that the old code you assume still existing is gone (Maybe he even said this himself, don't know)

 

To me it doesn't really matter. The no-dig option is for me what the feral-sense option is for you. No-digging is something for a mod in my opinion.

The question "there is this option, why not that option?" could be asked for hundreds of features that were once in the game. Almost all changes TFP has ever done to the game in its long years of open development have at least one fan saying "But I liked that the other way, please give it back, just as an option".

 

Ah. I did not know the AI had been re-worked from top to bottom, and now it makes sense why nobody has been able to create a mod that removes digging. It's hardwired in to the new code.

 

Though I would still like to see an option for no digging, I now better understand why it's not there and may never be available. And I can deal with that. In all seriousness, thank you for your responses. Who said there were no more civilized message boards for games around anymore!

 

On 2/10/2022 at 1:09 PM, Roland said:

 

Maybe TFP is disappointed in George Romero. How about that?

56 minutes ago, Morloc said:

 

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

 

/agree. lol

[Is there a reason behind Zombie digging & Matrix-esque abilities?]

21 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I have a better example: Imagine there was a bug in A25 that zombies could turn only right, not left. And after TFP fixed the bug for A26 with lots and lots of AI changes some players complained that the game was so much better for them when zombies only turned right.

 

I somehow doubt that TFP would expend development effort and option settings for this even if there were some players asking for it. Game developers don't like too many options because they have to support and test for all combinations of option settings. They tend to be very selective about them.

 

I'd have to argue that a bug is a much different animal than something that was actually coded into the game to be an actual behavior.

 

And I would share your doubt if, for example, something like feral sense hadn't been added. I wasn't one of the players who asked for it, and never had a reason to want something like it ever. But yet its a selectable option in the game. I have no idea how many people actually use it, but I'm sure the developers definitely sat down with it and tested it thoroughly before they just put it out there.

 

I understand developers not liking too many options, but that is one of the things that sets this game apart from the others in its genre. The player is given a good amount of freedom to create their own play experience and that should never be taken away.

 

And as far as effort goes...we are talking about the same developers who have put an obscene amount of effort into trying to circumvent certain ways that players play the game. That's how zombies being able to crawl through gaps got introduced, how zombies being able to swim better than the player got introduced, and recently why zombies can walk across dart slit blocks placed on the ground, as well as other previously troublesome terrain, without issue. 

 

I'd believe that the developers are already aware of what a digging/no digging option will bring to the game since it was part of the game before the change, so they wouldn't even have to sit down and test anything. But who or what does it hurt to put this in as a selectable option for zombie behavior? Like I said before, I didn't ask for feral sense and yet it's there. And it hurts me or the game in no way when I toggle that option off.

[Is there a reason behind Zombie digging & Matrix-esque abilities?]

Man. Step away for a moment and the topic suddenly turned to talk about….planks? lol

 

Anyway thanks all for sharing in this topic. I can understand why some never want the option for digging to become a player controlled option and that it should be something all zombies normally do. But I still stand by my opinion that it should be a player option, just like feral sense was made an option the player can turn off and on. Imagine if feral sense became the new unchangeable way that zombies behaved. Any new player, and even some veteran players would have to rock Romero esque settings (i.e. every zombie walks no matter what situation) just to be able to deal.

 

We’ve focused only on being underground in the base during a Blood Moon when it comes to digging, but the situation goes beyond that. If one is above ground, since Zombies have the acute (and unnecessary) ability to know exactly where the weakest point in the base is, watch as a group suddenly decides that they want bypass the wide open pathways into the base and dig underneath it so that they can reach the one cobblestone block that was overlooked during the upgrading process and break through it.

 

Also zombies can, will, and do dig outside of a Blood Moon. In both scenarios Zombies will dig their way around and under obstacles, such as spikes, fences, or game built barbed wiring. Remember how one used to be able to go all the way down to bedrock level and build an area for all of the heat using items to avoid unnecessary visits from the Screamer? She can now somehow STILL sense heat coming from that far down in the earth and will happily dig her way down to the source.

 

Please Fun Pimps can we get the option to turn digging off and on like all the other zombie related stuff? One of the many things I like about this

game is the ability to create my own experience, from a Romero-esque one (i.e. everything walks no matter what) up to a full throttle World War Z experience (i.e. feral sense is on and everything moves at max speed). Feral sense wasn’t forced onto the players and digging shouldn’t be forced either. Those who want it on will keep it on and those who want it off (like me) can turn it off. Who is it hurting to make this happen? Everyone wins.

[Is there a reason behind Zombie digging & Matrix-esque abilities?]

Quote

“Dig down 3 blocks” is a reference to when zombies couldn’t dig.  It didn’t matter whether you were too far away for them to sense you.  They could hear you or smell you all they wanted; they couldn’t do anything about it because there was a dirt block between you and them.  It was like this for many Alphas.  I’m glad that I can build above ground or underground now and they have comparable viability.

 

I see. I would've thought that if they detected the player they would've tried to find a way to the player by trying to search for a way in (door or hatch leading to the underground) and bash it open if it was within range.

 

Quote

In a game where zombies can scratch their way through concrete and steel, I don’t see why they shouldn’t be able to also scratch through dirt and raw stone. In other words, digging zombies keep the game self-consistent.

 

This is true even though its a loooooooong stretch for me. Wood I can see zombies breaking through, and I can even see breaking through cobblestone for the bigger creatures. Cement should be a big problem to break through and steel should be near impossible to break through. But I can live with this knowing that if I want to keep things more realistic I can turn down the block damage that creatures do. I get no option to do that with digging unless block damage changes that too.

 

Quote

If you have the Blood Moon and zombies turned on, then you deserve a compelling horde night experience.  And any setup where you can sit inactive through it with no losses is not compelling, in my view.

 

A compelling horde night experience can heavily depend on the player. I'm the type that likes to be out and active during the Blood Moons, though I am hoping they'll add variation in the future like "help defend the trader through the Blood Moon" or something along those lines instead of just the same old same each time. But if a player wants to sit inactive in their underground bunker during the Blood Moon, that should be their choice. Atmosphere wise, there's something unnerving about knowing a truckload of zombies and mutants are up above having a rager of party, and that going up there while that party is going on might spell death in all caps.  

[Unpopular Opinion: I Like the New Farming RNG]

22 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

That's not how it works, that how none of this works.

 

A 50% chance is just that, a 50% chance, just like getting tails when you flip a coin.  Each time you harvest or flip a coin, you have a 50% chance of getting a seed back or landing on tails.  50 harvests, or 50 coin flips, does not mean 25 seeds back every time and 25 tails every time as your probability resets to a flat 50% (not weighted towards any side).

 

You can flip a coin 10 times and get heads 10 times.  It doesn't mean that you have a 100% chance of getting heads (or 0% chance of getting tails).  It just means that your results on such a small sample size heavily leaned towards heads instead of tails.  Over a larger sample size, the ratio of heads / tails will start to get closer to 1/1 (unless the coin is deformed in such a way that it is not an even probability anymore..or you are using a trick coin).  That is how statistics and probability works.

 

In addition, we tend to forget things.  We remember when we got 20 seeds back, but forget the time we got 30 seeds back (or vice versa).  Or we only remember extremes - we remember when we only to 10 seeds back out of 50, but forget the previous four attempts we got 27 or 30 seeds back each time.

 

They are not lying when they say you have a 50% chance of getting a seed back, it is baked into the actual code (p=0.5).

 

Since I know you can get more than 50% seeds back (have seen it in game), your comment UP TO 50% is not correct.  That either means you haven't had the luck to get more than 50% yet or forgotten the times you got more than 50%.

 

At most you might have an error in the RNG that leans heavily to one side, but I don't think anyone yet has done a large sample size to verify or validate the probability chances. 

You know I suspected this was the way it worked, but I thought I was thinking too deeply. The 50% chance applies to each plant harvested and not the overall number of the plants in the harvest itself. Got it. Thank you!

[Is there a reason behind Zombie digging & Matrix-esque abilities?]

22 hours ago, Boidster said:

Quote

Is there a reason? Yes, the reason is that this is how The Fun Pimps have chosen to model their zombies/monsters/mutants/whatever-you-prefer-to-call-them.

 

An option to turn off digging? Never say never, but it seems unlikely. TFP want living underground to retain some of the same challenges as living above ground (a more specific reason). You can mitigate the risk and survive underground still, but you can't just dig 3 blocks down and forever be safe. I'm sure there are mods which turn this off.

 

Interesting. I didn't know it was that short a distance to dig down and be safe. Since I started playing after digging was added my experience is that zombies still hear you and screamers will definitely still come knocking at that short a distance down, so I've always gone all the way to the bedrock.

 

From what I understand (and I could be wrong) there are no mods to turn off digging. It's too hardcoded into the zombie behavior or something along those lines to be completely removed.

 

Quote

 

Usually, the zombie thrope doesn't take account of the rigor mortis effect, except in the case of the Chinese jiangshi (or kyonshi, in Japan). The virus/organism/agent X that reanimates dead people nullifies the rigor mortis somehow, but flesh decay will still occur over time. Zack Snyder's Dawn of the Dead actually illustrates this very well. Freshly reanimated corpses are still vigorous and even seem to be stronger and own extra stamina. But after a while, muscle decay takes over and some specimens move slower and have numbed reaction time.

 

7DTD seems to take some elements from this but it's mainly inspired from the Walking Dead series, which the Pimps are fond of.

 

Ah. I missed his version of Dawn of the Dead. Always stuck with the original Romero versions. Thanks for this info.

 

It's from the original Day of the Dead that the concept of an underground bunker comes to mind for me. It made perfect sense that that would be one way to stay safe against the zombies by being hidden and out of their reach, and it made sense that people would learn to create a zone that was "safe" from zombies being that they were stuck in such a setting. If safety could never be established, everyone would be dead. In my opinion as a player it adds more to the atmosphere of knowing that I have to leave my safety and go out into the unsafe world above to get the things I need to survive, versus the current "nowhere is safe, you're always on guard, so you might as well just build your base above ground because it will make no real difference in the end".

 

Quote

Also, dodging might be in reference to how they move towards the player if they are not on one of the cardinal axes.  If you are directly N/E/S/W of the zombie, they tend to move in a straight line towards the player.  If you are diagonal to them, the zombie movement shifts between them.  Though I wouldn't call this dodging, more like weaving.

 

Dodge and evade are such generic terms that people could (and have) applied them to completely different circumstances.

So is this what that phenomenon is? Thank you for explaining. As a hunting/marksman/sniper gun user I see this a LOT. Also, while facing N/E/S/W I will see zombies spin out of the way of my attacks either while trying to shoot or trying to melee. This is what I meant by the Neo-esque abilities. They can be hauling toward me, then spin out of the way the moment I take the shot or swing at them. If I try to javelin throw on them (yes, don't laugh, I'm working with javelins as my melee at the moment) they will conveniently move just slightly out of the way a moment before the javelin strikes, causing a miss. 

Thank you all for your responses. I have definitely learned today. Hopefully zombie movements will be updated to work better in the future, and I really hope they check in to the zombies sometimes having an attack range that rivals Dhalsim from Street Fighter. But I do hope TFP's put in the option to allow digging to be turned off some day. 

[Is there a reason behind Zombie digging & Matrix-esque abilities?]

I’m pretty sure this has been answered, but it was probably way before my time, so apologies in advance if this is a repeat. Is there a reason why Zombies are able to dig and why there is no option to shut that off like you can with feral sense and the other zombie abilities?

Also is there a reason why zombies have the ability to dodge, duck, and evade like Neo from the Matrix? I could accept this from the mutants (i.e. Screamers, Spiders, Wrights, the new boil having guy, and irradiated) because they aren’t zombies. But when a basic zombie is able to react and move like rigor-mortis isn’t a thing, it makes as much sense as the ability to dig with bare hands and not absolutely wreck said hands in the process.

Will we ever see an option to turn off digging completely and/or the Neo-esque abilities from basic zombies?

[Unpopular Opinion: I Like the New Farming RNG]

I too am among the rares in this topic who like the farming changes. I hated the idea at first and though it was pointless. But now that I've experienced it and worked with it, I like it. Investment should be required to farm efficiently, and this puts farming in line with mining where you CAN mine without talents but...it's going to be a headache. Now that the crop grow time issue has been resolved, the only thing that needs to be shored up is the randomness in seed return. If there's supposed to be a 50% chance of seed return, let it be what it says. If I plant 50 plants, I expect 25 seeds back, not 20, not 15. Don't lie and say 50% when in reality it's actually UP TO 50%. Other than that, farming change is good.  

[Does The Shamway Secret Recipe Still Exist in A20?]

We have been searching for this in game, but our random gen didn't generate a Shamway Factory. I loaded up a single player Navezgane Map just to make sure Shamway Factories still existed. Found that they do, but found that the safe the recipe used to be in no longer has a safe. When I did find the safe, it had an armor schematic in it. Just wanted to check and see if this was still the way to get this recipe in A20 or is it now found at random out in the world?

[Are Grow Times For Crops Longer In A20?]

On 12/16/2021 at 1:19 PM, Darthjake said:

 

Well Dang, I feel like a bit of an amateur, I run about 40 crops, and yeah some like corn I get most of my seeds back, but potatoes, coffee, yucca and blueberry are a  bit lackluster for seed return.

Don't feel like an amateur at all. There's about 4-6 of us on our server so lots of hungry mouths to feed. But it's good to know that it not just me that's noticing this. Hopefully this will be fixed because even though I resisted it at first, the farming overhaul is not turning out to be too bad.

[Are Grow Times For Crops Longer In A20?]

On 12/12/2021 at 6:16 PM, Darthjake said:

I'm in charge of the crops for our team, and I've seen no lag in growing as long as I plant them all at nearly the same time, are you planting some during the day and then dusk or night?

 

Do the crops have unrestricted sunlight?  I built my farm on the south side of our base so it would have plenty of sun.

 

Hello crop team rep!

 

Just like the post above me I planted all of the crops at the same time. All had unrestricted access to sunlight as they're located on the third floor of our homebase which has plenty of windows to the side and skylighting (glass blocks) in the ceiling so the sun can shine through. One thing I have noticed is that if I log out near the crops when I log back in the problem happens. However, if I log out away from the crops, like down on the first or basement floors of our homebase, or away from the base, the crops grow just fine and on time. 

 

Also, as an additional question, is the 50% return supposed to work on all or just some plants? I run 100 plants at a time and have noticed that harvesting certain crops (like corn) will correctly apply the 50% return and I walk away with 50 seeds. But with other crops like potatoes and pumpkins, it will not correctly apply the 50% return and I walk away with 30 seeds out of 100 plants.

[Are Grow Times For Crops Longer In A20?]

An update to this topic. We're also noticing that the crops aren't growing at the same rate even if they're all planted at the same time. A section of the plants will always fall behind the others and take an additional 60 minutes (beyond the original 120) to go from "growing" to complete. Then, there will always be one plant out of the entire group that will fall so far behind it will stay as a seed for the initial 120 minutes and the extra 60 minutes that it takes for the left behind crops to catch up. Only after the left behind crops finish growing does this last plant move into the growing stage.

 

I'm going to assume that because nobody else has responded to this topic, that what's happening to us is an isolated incident. So hopefully this topic is in the right place to report an issue/bug. We're really trying to be in support of the new Farming system, but so far its not winning any votes. Is this situation happening to anyone else in their MP games or is it just us and we need to reset the server?

[Are Grow Times For Crops Longer In A20?]

I've been playing with Farming in the new A20 experimental build and have noticed that growing crops takes longer. It used to be 120 mins in real time. Now it takes closer to 4 hours real time. I didn't see this in the update notes and was wondering if it was a bug or if grow times have changed.