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Posts posted by Solomon

  1. 11 hours ago, Roland said:

    But, you are talking about diversity of player choice. I don't believe you can separate that out from diversity of challenges or situations facing the player. They are intertwined. I'll not mention it all AGAIN because those particular keys are getting worn at this point but as has been stated over and over and over again in this thread, there is incontrovertible proof that because of the auto aggro rooms there is more diversity in actual Stealth gameplay over what there was when every volume was deep asleep all the time.

    You can technically do both of this in a form where it makes sense and establishes that "the stealth players must fight here" sceniario.

    Upper in a comment i suggested 2 zombie types, twitchers who have various hidden vision cones to make sure its extremely hard to sneak up on them working along with a hivemind setup where if one is awake the others too come for you and the heavy sleepers what spawn alongside with the twitchers who have timer and condition systems on when to awake.


    Sceniario you are in a cave POI where you found the loot room. There are 7 undead inside 4 twitchers and 3 heavy sleepers, the twitchers are convulsing violently and atleast one of them always have a viewcone on the door to see you even in the next room.


    The heavy sleepers always awake if you attack a twitcher from stealth because they scream when hit this way and they also dont like gun combat to sleep next with, they also dont sleep well in general next to active combat and looting. Your opinions are the following:


    1. Lure the twitchers out and shot/melee them
    2. Enter the room and melee the twitchers hoping the combat wont wake up the sleepers

    Once the twitchers are done you can enter stealth and take out the sleepers or leave them there. The heavy sleepers are all running a random countdown what react to certain noise, melee combat and looting counts down the normal amount, gunshots awake them fast, killing another heavy sleeper in the room while not in stealth also is risky.


    In this form you kept the stealth player's option to deal with an enemy their way while offering them an almost impossible but still doable way to stay in stealth.

  2. 20 hours ago, Kalen said:

    I never said it increased the diversity of player choice.   I apologize for not being clear, but I thought it was obvious that I meant that it increased the diversity of the challenges a player faces.    Not sure how you feel this somehow restricts you.... as it has been mentioned and proven multiple times in this thread.... you can still stealth the entire POI, it just takes a little more effort and may not always be the optimal choice.

    For diversity of challange it makes some sense thought due to how the game is set up its not exactly a challange but a minor annoyance. See the suggestion lower in quote, it introduces a sceniario where you must fight a certain type of enemy what is hyper aware while it still lets you stealth throught the room the fight happened near.

    23 hours ago, Solomon said:

    2) If they are already awake and twitching violently their head and body around the room it would make more sense as you would attribute it to a zombie type and not to a boundary check

    3) See upper zombie type

    4) Again see upper zombie type, infact you could make a heavy sleeper type of zombie what awakes if a player tries to stealth attack a twitcher so the strategy would be to lure out the twitcher ferals and then stealth remove the sleepers.


    18 hours ago, alanea said:

    considering we already have zombies that  reduce/ignore head shot bonuses .... its not as  big issue as some may think

     <passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_set" value="1" tags="head"/>

    Thats an overall constant resistance but i would want something what is 1 time only.


    18 hours ago, meganoth said:

    Only your point 5 is relevant as you try to show that the auto-aggro does not achieve a challenge. But you can circumvent it through skill, if you see zombies running at you, run away, restealth and throw stones to kill them. No need to know beforehand what happens. I did try this strategy at insane difficulty and it worked.

    This may be a problem with me only but this sounds like somekind of bug in the system what will get fixed later on.

  3. 10 hours ago, meganoth said:

    1) Helps in creating boss rooms where you don't want the "boss" to suffer a first headshot with 300% or more damage increase

    2) Mixes up zombie behaviour as those zombies will not slowly wake up but have a running start (small difficulty increase nr. 1)

    3) Could enhance huge rooms if you tag a smaller volume as auto-aggro so some of the zombies are awake immediately, but others still sleeping.

    4) Actually generates a guaranteed situation where a zombie pack attacks you INSIDE a POI (difficulty increase nr. 2, variation increase)

    5) Special challenge for stealth players. I'm not sure if TFP thought about this when adding the feature, but since there are ways for stealth players to handle it they likely count this as a plus even though it isn't balanced across attributes.

    1) Give him a helmet and some flimsy body armor what takes the whole bonus damage of your shot and flies off the boss after it awoken?

    2) If they are already awake and twitching violently their head and body around the room it would make more sense as you would attribute it to a zombie type and not to a boundary check

    3) See upper zombie type

    4) Again see upper zombie type, infact you could make a heavy sleeper type of zombie what awakes if a player tries to stealth attack a twitcher so the strategy would be to lure out the twitcher ferals and then stealth remove the sleepers.

    5) See upper, things like this are only challange if you can either circumvent it throught skill or can react to the situation from game memory. The current situation is neither.

  4. 19 hours ago, Kandrathe said:

    As a life long hunter, I stalk my prey, but their senses are very keen.  Even moving upwind on quiet ground and masking scent I am never 100% successful, and not even close.  Investing in stealth would give you an advantage on unwary prey, but it sounds like some folks here are looking for certainty.  An alerted adversary is impossible to surprise.


    Game theory in a complex multiplayer game involves scenarios that require skill diversity.  In the "simplicated" metaphor, there are multiple ways to clear a room.  Good POI design would bring all the play styles some love, but not in every room.  If I'm a H2H strength build, I will occasionally face feral irradiated tough opponent.  I don't get the x9 times damage bonus verses bikers perk.  Maybe the smart move is to let the stealthy player take out the biker.  But, in the next room they are alerted, so the intellect build with turrets or tank with a club gets the love while the stealth player participates.


    Balancing PVE and PVP in a game like this is tough.   You don't want to over or under advantage one play style or everyone chooses the exact same build.

    That was my point, failing randomly because they have a hidden awaressness cone you are unaware of is okay. Getting them alerted 100% no matter what and how you do it is not.


    Stealth builds are already disadvantegous on the horde night, there it becomes a perk of wasted resources with everything you made with it. The auto aggro rooms further decrease the value of anything stealth based and actively promote less gameplay diversity.


    The ideal gameplay setup as you said doesnt favor one kind of combat only but also the ideal gameplay setup lets all kind of combats play equally. As the game currently stands theres little reason to not go for a Strenght build with a club, theres just soo many useful things in that perk tree the players are hamfisted into it.

    Meanwhile the other styles of combat either dont work well enough because you are playing in close combat (sniping in this game), droprates dont support them for a long time (stunbaton and other intelligence strategies) or have scripted "NOPE" areas all over the game (stealth).


    18 hours ago, meganoth said:

    Tell that to Solomon who seems to think it is an auto-die situation

    Dont twist my words please, just where did you ever see me telling that you just die there. I said its an auto-failure point, even my original page 21 comment doesnt say anything about dying.


    How about you go back and read it again? Automatic-failure doesnt mean instant defeat in all and every cases, it could be a switch increasing difficulty, adding in more enemies, making platforms moving faster, etc....



  5. 20 hours ago, Kalen said:

    How does having a room where stealth doesn't work without a little effort promote diversity?   Um, by making it so that stealth doesn't work without a little effort in some places.  Without auto agro rooms you could pretty much creep your way through every POI dropping zombies with headshots and little to no risk to yourself.


    Having rooms where a straight up fight is less effective than stealth (like the mentioned 0 armor scenario) would be another way to do it.   

    Because removing variables decreases variables. Just as i pointed out in my example by making zombies what heal from fire doesnt offer you more diverse strategies but actually decreases them.


    Diversity is when you have a great number of dealing with an obstacle, like for example in this game if you find a hole filled with undead you can build over it, move over it with the edges normally, stealth throught the edges or slaughter the undead. If you take one action out or make another mandatory you just decreased the diversity on how to get over the obstacle.


    20 hours ago, Kalen said:

    I'm in favor of almost anything that promotes a player using different strategies to clear a POI.

    Then you should have said that because that is NOT diversity of player choice but rules of a dungeon. Its a restriction made specifically for that area, its still not good game design but when the whole place is no stealth it makes sense because the building is alerted but in our case it makes no sense because its just the room auto-failing you.

    • Like 1
  6. 2 hours ago, Kalen said:

    So?  If you want to get technical I'm not actually entering a room either... its just some code that says I am.   Such a room would not bother me in the slightest.... I would equally welcome a room that encourages stealth as I would a room that encourages a straight up fight.   The game needs more diversity, not less.

    Let me point out something important what you too have said right here:


    The game needs more diversity, not less.


    Now please explain how it adds more diversity to the game when an arbitary failure script turns off a gameplay element? Or let me simplicate it even further, if your game is based on matching up same colored tiles atleast 3 in a line or column how does it increase the diversity when you remove one color from the palette?


    We have a ton of combat approaches from throwing in grenades, shooting in a rocket to going melee or go full stealth and you say that removing one of the elements will somehow make it more diverse?


    Lets just make a set of zombies what are healing from fire damage from the player, surely making molotovs and anything burning less useful is adds somekind of diversity to the game because it somehow increases your choice of throwables and mods to use?



    Auto-trigger rooms do one thing precisely, they decrease the diversity of the game because there are much less ways to approach a problem than before.

    • Like 1
  7. 11 hours ago, Kalen said:

    Yeah, that sounds fun.... you enter a room and there are several bandits with AP rounds.   Sure, I could see that as a challenge that makes perfect sense!  Good idea!

    Yeah but thats not what would happen, it would be a room of bandits and your armor would be set to zero while you are in that room.


    Not AP weapons what ignore a armor but a line of code what only happens in a specific place. People will gonna complain about it because at first they will think that the bandits have a better AP round than what they can craft then someone later on reveals thats not the case because this is yet another "You fail because you exist" room setup.

  8. 6 hours ago, alanea said:

    sure they added some rng (in  A19? A18?)  by simply randomizing loot containers (you can  loot house  ..and find trash behind  painting ... but after reseting  you can find   lets say lab equipment on same spot

    No those are spawns, i checked in the xml's. Some paintings have an effect to convert the space behind them into random loot when breaking. They are like RNG loot containers, they are either trigger or not but they are always the same.

  9. 28 minutes ago, Kalen said:

    Any time spent on building new versions of existing POIs is better spent on brand new POIs, IMO.

    They are kind of the same, the only difference is that in one version you dont touch the exterior while in the other you do.


    The result will be the same but with making new variants you are also needing less time to create something in theory.

    • Like 1
  10. 8 minutes ago, Maxley said:

    It would be ideal if they could do that but it isn’t something that they have the time or man power to do. Even if they managed to make 3 variants for every POI players would figure out the fastest way to cheese it and get to the loot for all of them, it would just take 3 trails per POI instead of 1.


    just reduce the amount of loot at the end to one hardened chest and one box and spread the rest out around the POI more. Sham way actually does this pretty well already. There’s like 3 worthwhile loot piles throughout the building besides the very top loot.

    Ohh you got me wrong, my goal is not simply to just make finding the loot room harder but to mainly add in more content into the game in form of varying up things.

    • Like 1
  11. This specific thing is bothering me, whenever you or me started playing the POI's you raided are the same. That SM factory you fell down in a hole trying to avoid a zed is the same as the SM factory you have built your base in today.


    Nerdpooling into loot rooms is only a thing because we know where the loot room is because nothing changes, after a certain point you know where everything is because the Pimps may create a new POI for us to explore but they dont really touch the POI's created unless for bugfixing.


    I would like to suggest making POI variants what from the outside look exactly like the old ones but from the inside they are different for example:


    Shotgun Messiah Laboratories:


    This version of the SM factories has a secret entrance in the boiler room with the flaming zombies, you can go down from there into an underground military complex where they presumably were experimenting with goverment weapons. 


    Shotgun Messiah Overtaken:


    Same old SM factory except the second and third floor was overtaken by civilians/bandits. The walls are reinforced, there are living quaters and the obvious signs of not good enough defenses against a horde.


    Water Treatment Factory Collapsed:


    Its fine from the outside but the whole interior underground collapsed into another cave system, someone must have cheaped out on safety regulations.


    Water Treatment Factory Money Laundry:


    An ingenious strike of the mob, a working water treatment factory with a hidden entrance for a money laudering scheme right behind the walls.



    The key idea is to make the random aspect of the RWG even more random by further increasing the building variants. The RWG would choose randomly from building variants after it choosed which buildings would it make like SM was choosen to be placed down 1 so it now chooses between A, B and C variants.


    What do you think, would you like to see more variants of the existing POI's?


    • Like 1
  12. 17 hours ago, alanea said:

    well i think TFP know loot rooms arent ideal .. but realistically some key mechanic is far easier solution than reworking every single poi

    but there isnt much around for us yet ... guess we can only wait and hope to get  something meaningfull rather than locked steel doors  in wooden room with windows

    But the idea of reworking POI's is not just to make looting harder but to generate variables because everything looks the same and without adding variables to it the POI's you first raided back in 2018 are the same as the POI's nowadays.

    • Like 1
  13. 17 hours ago, alanea said:

    well yeah but there could be  7k metal doors  ... or visually less fitting 21k instead wooden ones with key in chest especially in high tier poi like waterworks where you have concrete walls and cant easily bypass those doors on day 1 .. they have some plans on keys  etc  so lets wait and hope .. its significant flaw of game  ....but we will need nerves of steel for future forum

    Most probably what will happen is that the pimps are going to add in a "Key only" door and people just gonna dig around it.


    Lets be honest, the whole "fastest way into a POI" situation only affects those who are already at their 5th (or more) replay so they know exactly where the loot is.


    This is the reason why i suggested POI designs where the exterior is looking like the usual setup but the interior is changed up so the player must enter the area to figure out where the loot is.


    Like for example lets take that waterworks where the exit is always near that tree:


    Version A : Tree exit, the regular map.

    Version B : Nothing under the tree, the exit is under a nearby poi. The actual inside is refurbished to look like a military base and not waterworks.

    Version C : The tree is actually a second entrance leading to the same corridor setup, long routes into a collapsed cave system where the loot is in the middle between the two exits.


    Variation is miles better than creating artifical difficulty like key opened doors and chests.

    18 hours ago, alanea said:

    day 3 is quite late in A18 i never used stone shovel until A19 and had atleast one steel tool and gun on day  1

    It was usually day 2 for us but we never used steel tools, that was endgame for us. 

  14. 19 hours ago, meganoth said:

    Safes were commonly kept for later and their locations noted. But a mayor reason for this was that opening one with a stone axe was just taking too long. Lootstage concerns were much less important.

    Yeah that i do remember, thought we played in pairs so most of the time we just hammered stuff till it opened.


    17 hours ago, alanea said:

    2) a19 WS box drops nails repair kits and tools

    absurdly long ?:D  7 days +-  but  to be fair  you can craft low quality iron tools on day  1-2

    I mean, i could already do that? We were usually out of stone age on day 3 in A18. I took advanced engineering and started making tools while the others were gone to hunt down resources.

    Compared to this nothing has changed except that now i NEED to take advanced engineering to go forward unlike in A18 where it was convenience option.


    Steel was a bottleneck in both version because the damned crucible is nowhere to found.

  15. 15 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

    1. People were waiting to loot safes because the loot was low quality anyway pre A19.

    2. Totally untrue. Pre 19 containers also had their own loot lists by types as they do know.

    1. I never once seen here any complain about how the loot in safes and such is bad so they have to wait for it, this type of complain started to appear en masse after the A19 experimental came out but if im wrong please provide source of your claim.
    2. Yeah thats true to some degree, if you looted a WS container you had your random chance of getting somekind of tool, repair kits and nails if i remember right. Now in A19 this is no longer the case because for an absurdly long amount of time the same loot will be in that container till your GS rises up enough.
    • Knuckle Rub 1
  16. 56 minutes ago, Weazelsun said:

    Heck, the pawnshop poi, the loot room is basically right at the starting point. Just break the door next to the dumpster. lol

    Seriously, places like this shouldnt have loot rooms. It makes sense for giant factories, laboratories and skyscrapers but not for those small as hell little rooms.

    • Knuckle Rub 1
  17. 19 hours ago, Daemonjax said:

    I like it.


    I'm a new player that didn't experience the old system, but I can use my imagination.  This way, loot has a progression.  It's more gamist and less of a simulation, and so some players won't like that.


    I would change it so that safes always have something worth putting behind the safe, though -- something like use a minimum total value of the loot based on current game stage and size of the safe.  The values of the loot already exist (trade prices) so this would be easy to implement.  For all I know, maybe it already is, but then it just needs to be tweaked.

    The old system was not perfect but it made two things right:


    * A gun safe or a type specific crate always had what you expect in them. Guns in a gunsafe and tools in a sealed crate. The current version makes sure that every gunsafe you open will only have primitive bows and blunderbusses, no variation at all.

    * It was unpredicatable meaning that every container was "new" to a player, you never knew exactly what will be in a kitchen counter because the moment you thought it will be cans and water again you found an anvil or an AK.

  18. 7 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

    It was a lot of work.  You had to dig a trench to bedrock all the way around your base, then line the edges of it several blocks deep with something to slow the zombies down (barbed wire, or, my preference, water) because otherwise they'd run off the edge before figuring out it was an edge.  You also needed to have corridors in at least the 4 cardinal directions, since they wouldn't path all the way around.  There were still a few that would fling themselves into the depths, but the vast majority of them would cross the bridges you built into your base.


    Here's one of my bases from A16 (it wasn't finished at this point.)



    The trench was made by splitting it up into 3X5 sections (since the trench was 5 wide) and then undercutting it.  My first attempt to do this was me cutting out a 51 X 51 section and then undercutting it, and it didn't collapse at all...that was really annoying.

    Thats goddamm impressive! I figure it could work even today too assuming the suiciders are picked out at the bottom?

  19. 8 hours ago, meganoth said:

    Tower defense is great now if you want to build a variety of bases. In A16 we were hamfisted into 1 playstyle: A block with 4 equal sides, everything else was just embellishment without function.

    My problem is a this or that approach. I would rather have a group of stupid, a group of pathing and a group of extreme structural engineering zombies.

    That way you would maximize out how and in what ways should a base be defended as you would need walls for the mindless, a good walking path to reach the mindless along with a kill corridoor against the smart ones.

    8 hours ago, meganoth said:

    If you really succeeded at corridor bases in A16 you got my admiration for sure. But how? In A16 they still simply ran directly at you, just like A15.

    If i would have to guess, he eliminated the chance for the zombies to spawn around him and stood in a big corridor where the only natural spawn is at the corridoor end.

    • Like 1
  20. On 11/20/2020 at 11:08 AM, theFlu said:

    Forget my silly mine-ideas, and go for fixing some of the already existing oddness to reach a similar goal; like why wouldn't an aggravated zed occasionally make enough sound to wake all their friends? Maybe just by punching a fridge for the frustrated feeling of hunger combined with the faint memory of there being food there, but not having any idea how the handle on it works? Having "active sleepers" trying to live human lives but failing.. like sitting on the couch, trying to use the remote in an infinite loop.. trying desperately to walk out the front door .. sitting at the dinner table as a happy family, staring into the void in each others arms... each ready to shriek in frustration... sure these would get old too, fast, but... so do all silly tricks.

    These actually sound good, they dont even need to get aggravated about how things dont work just make them generate enough sound that technically all zeds are awake around them.

  21. On 11/19/2020 at 4:55 AM, Mastermind said:

    - Survival, it sucks.

    - Tower Defense, it sucks

    - Looter-Shooter, it sucks

    - RPG, it sucks.

    The main point we should argue is why these individually suck IN THIS GAME.


    I get that its a mixture but that shouldnt mean that any of these should suck. For example the RPG feeling mainly comes from perks and dungeon style POI's and the upcoming clothes system teaser, the game in this sense is only rpgish at best thought it only needs continous effort to rpg elements to steer the game deeper into it.


    Tower defense sucks because the "intelligent" zombie design made it appear, its not natural for the game. The early zombies just blindly swarmed the player meaning you used the traditional wall systems and some crafty underwater/underground bases but ever since the devs created this structural engineer AI system we were hamfisted into 2 playstyles: Tower defense style AI cheese or Bunker bases with the latter one being inferior due to the high repair costs.

    Also thanks to the TD AI, we have an uprise of questionable base designs what couldnt function well when the zeds would just blindly come at you.


    Looter-Shooter still needs balancing, thats it.


    Survival, well thats an interesting question. You practically only need food and water, thats enough to turn a game into a survival but our problem is mainly that the last version of the game made tool usage consume water and food greatly soo to a tipping point where its seems both absurd how much food you need and at the same time too easy to get enough.

  22. 22 hours ago, Kalen said:

    When the idea was discussed in the dev diary, Joel indicated that they were only thinking about using this in the higher tier POIs, not all POIs.   Cause, yeah, that would get old fast.

    Even in higher tier poi's like the SM factory it gets old fast, especially if its on some random zombie because that means you at no point can decide to go around a certain part because one of the 60 zombies in the area has the key and if its in a container that means we essentially get 2 loot rooms one to raid fastest ingoring everything and 1 to nerdpole into.


    I much rather see adding more variations of the same building because that way every building keeps the sandbox aspect while they are no longer predictable that easily.

  23. 9 hours ago, Boidster said:

    I'd bet 200 quatloos that the container will be locked. That seems far simpler to integrate into the game than trying to adjust loot rooms in POIs.

    Even thats something i wouldnt want to see because that would need that in every poi i would always need to go around these long as hell routes just to reach something what is literally in arm reach.


    For example theres that shop poi where the loot room is literally behind some iron bars, you could take the intented route what is unnecessearly long going up on the roof and all that jazz or like a true survivor of the apocalypse just whittle down the iron bars and get in.

  24. 4 hours ago, Tahaan said:

    This is a good answer and should be pinned and put in a FAQ somewhere because this keeps coming up.


    Really cool would be if they had a sniffing annimation ... let the zeds that auto-wake-up start with an animation where they sniff the air and look arround for a second before they locate and rush you!!!!

    It would still not fix the key problem which is an auto failure.


    I never really seen many people who advocate of auto failure systems, those are hated regardless of genre and gaming age.

    Your game could have an auto failure where if you dont escape within 1 minute the alarms go off and you now need to fight off the guards, an accuracy check where if you dont reach 90% your are now subjected to the harder mode, enemy design offering an undodgeable, sure-hit attack incase you cant remove a wall torch, etc...


    Simply giving the zombies a line of sight system where with proper movement and careful planning you can get throught is always going to be better than "You exist in the room therefore you are target."

    • Like 1
  25. 1 hour ago, RestInPieces said:

    With that out of the way, one of the important things here is, whether one chooses to nerdpole or not makes no difference to the fact that they know what to expect in a randomly generated sandbox. Now If you don't think that's an obvious problem, or a problem at all for that matter, there is no point in discussing this further.

    Im kind of sad that neither does the world have true sandbox feeling, nor the loot anymore.


    If i wanted to play a game where i memorized the layout of every "dungeon" and know exactly what loot awaits me at the treasure room what is always in the same spot i would play any of the rpgs out there. Sandbox aspect is the greatest aspect of this game, the fact that you "can" (but not worth your time) build any base and have myraids of ways to get into that poi and secure the treasure is great and the less we have in that the closer we are getting to being yet another generic zombie survival.

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