Jump to content


  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Posts posted by Solomon

  1. 11 hours ago, Roland said:

    But, you are talking about diversity of player choice. I don't believe you can separate that out from diversity of challenges or situations facing the player. They are intertwined. I'll not mention it all AGAIN because those particular keys are getting worn at this point but as has been stated over and over and over again in this thread, there is incontrovertible proof that because of the auto aggro rooms there is more diversity in actual Stealth gameplay over what there was when every volume was deep asleep all the time.

    You can technically do both of this in a form where it makes sense and establishes that "the stealth players must fight here" sceniario.

    Upper in a comment i suggested 2 zombie types, twitchers who have various hidden vision cones to make sure its extremely hard to sneak up on them working along with a hivemind setup where if one is awake the others too come for you and the heavy sleepers what spawn alongside with the twitchers who have timer and condition systems on when to awake.


    Sceniario you are in a cave POI where you found the loot room. There are 7 undead inside 4 twitchers and 3 heavy sleepers, the twitchers are convulsing violently and atleast one of them always have a viewcone on the door to see you even in the next room.


    The heavy sleepers always awake if you attack a twitcher from stealth because they scream when hit this way and they also dont like gun combat to sleep next with, they also dont sleep well in general next to active combat and looting. Your opinions are the following:


    1. Lure the twitchers out and shot/melee them
    2. Enter the room and melee the twitchers hoping the combat wont wake up the sleepers

    Once the twitchers are done you can enter stealth and take out the sleepers or leave them there. The heavy sleepers are all running a random countdown what react to certain noise, melee combat and looting counts down the normal amount, gunshots awake them fast, killing another heavy sleeper in the room while not in stealth also is risky.


    In this form you kept the stealth player's option to deal with an enemy their way while offering them an almost impossible but still doable way to stay in stealth.

  2. 20 hours ago, Kalen said:

    I never said it increased the diversity of player choice.   I apologize for not being clear, but I thought it was obvious that I meant that it increased the diversity of the challenges a player faces.    Not sure how you feel this somehow restricts you.... as it has been mentioned and proven multiple times in this thread.... you can still stealth the entire POI, it just takes a little more effort and may not always be the optimal choice.

    For diversity of challange it makes some sense thought due to how the game is set up its not exactly a challange but a minor annoyance. See the suggestion lower in quote, it introduces a sceniario where you must fight a certain type of enemy what is hyper aware while it still lets you stealth throught the room the fight happened near.

    23 hours ago, Solomon said:

    2) If they are already awake and twitching violently their head and body around the room it would make more sense as you would attribute it to a zombie type and not to a boundary check

    3) See upper zombie type

    4) Again see upper zombie type, infact you could make a heavy sleeper type of zombie what awakes if a player tries to stealth attack a twitcher so the strategy would be to lure out the twitcher ferals and then stealth remove the sleepers.


    18 hours ago, alanea said:

    considering we already have zombies that  reduce/ignore head shot bonuses .... its not as  big issue as some may think

     <passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_set" value="1" tags="head"/>

    Thats an overall constant resistance but i would want something what is 1 time only.


    18 hours ago, meganoth said:

    Only your point 5 is relevant as you try to show that the auto-aggro does not achieve a challenge. But you can circumvent it through skill, if you see zombies running at you, run away, restealth and throw stones to kill them. No need to know beforehand what happens. I did try this strategy at insane difficulty and it worked.

    This may be a problem with me only but this sounds like somekind of bug in the system what will get fixed later on.

  3. 10 hours ago, meganoth said:

    1) Helps in creating boss rooms where you don't want the "boss" to suffer a first headshot with 300% or more damage increase

    2) Mixes up zombie behaviour as those zombies will not slowly wake up but have a running start (small difficulty increase nr. 1)

    3) Could enhance huge rooms if you tag a smaller volume as auto-aggro so some of the zombies are awake immediately, but others still sleeping.

    4) Actually generates a guaranteed situation where a zombie pack attacks you INSIDE a POI (difficulty increase nr. 2, variation increase)

    5) Special challenge for stealth players. I'm not sure if TFP thought about this when adding the feature, but since there are ways for stealth players to handle it they likely count this as a plus even though it isn't balanced across attributes.

    1) Give him a helmet and some flimsy body armor what takes the whole bonus damage of your shot and flies off the boss after it awoken?

    2) If they are already awake and twitching violently their head and body around the room it would make more sense as you would attribute it to a zombie type and not to a boundary check

    3) See upper zombie type

    4) Again see upper zombie type, infact you could make a heavy sleeper type of zombie what awakes if a player tries to stealth attack a twitcher so the strategy would be to lure out the twitcher ferals and then stealth remove the sleepers.

    5) See upper, things like this are only challange if you can either circumvent it throught skill or can react to the situation from game memory. The current situation is neither.

  4. 19 hours ago, Kandrathe said:

    As a life long hunter, I stalk my prey, but their senses are very keen.  Even moving upwind on quiet ground and masking scent I am never 100% successful, and not even close.  Investing in stealth would give you an advantage on unwary prey, but it sounds like some folks here are looking for certainty.  An alerted adversary is impossible to surprise.


    Game theory in a complex multiplayer game involves scenarios that require skill diversity.  In the "simplicated" metaphor, there are multiple ways to clear a room.  Good POI design would bring all the play styles some love, but not in every room.  If I'm a H2H strength build, I will occasionally face feral irradiated tough opponent.  I don't get the x9 times damage bonus verses bikers perk.  Maybe the smart move is to let the stealthy player take out the biker.  But, in the next room they are alerted, so the intellect build with turrets or tank with a club gets the love while the stealth player participates.


    Balancing PVE and PVP in a game like this is tough.   You don't want to over or under advantage one play style or everyone chooses the exact same build.

    That was my point, failing randomly because they have a hidden awaressness cone you are unaware of is okay. Getting them alerted 100% no matter what and how you do it is not.


    Stealth builds are already disadvantegous on the horde night, there it becomes a perk of wasted resources with everything you made with it. The auto aggro rooms further decrease the value of anything stealth based and actively promote less gameplay diversity.


    The ideal gameplay setup as you said doesnt favor one kind of combat only but also the ideal gameplay setup lets all kind of combats play equally. As the game currently stands theres little reason to not go for a Strenght build with a club, theres just soo many useful things in that perk tree the players are hamfisted into it.

    Meanwhile the other styles of combat either dont work well enough because you are playing in close combat (sniping in this game), droprates dont support them for a long time (stunbaton and other intelligence strategies) or have scripted "NOPE" areas all over the game (stealth).


    18 hours ago, meganoth said:

    Tell that to Solomon who seems to think it is an auto-die situation

    Dont twist my words please, just where did you ever see me telling that you just die there. I said its an auto-failure point, even my original page 21 comment doesnt say anything about dying.


    How about you go back and read it again? Automatic-failure doesnt mean instant defeat in all and every cases, it could be a switch increasing difficulty, adding in more enemies, making platforms moving faster, etc....



  5. 20 hours ago, Kalen said:

    How does having a room where stealth doesn't work without a little effort promote diversity?   Um, by making it so that stealth doesn't work without a little effort in some places.  Without auto agro rooms you could pretty much creep your way through every POI dropping zombies with headshots and little to no risk to yourself.


    Having rooms where a straight up fight is less effective than stealth (like the mentioned 0 armor scenario) would be another way to do it.   

    Because removing variables decreases variables. Just as i pointed out in my example by making zombies what heal from fire doesnt offer you more diverse strategies but actually decreases them.


    Diversity is when you have a great number of dealing with an obstacle, like for example in this game if you find a hole filled with undead you can build over it, move over it with the edges normally, stealth throught the edges or slaughter the undead. If you take one action out or make another mandatory you just decreased the diversity on how to get over the obstacle.


    20 hours ago, Kalen said:

    I'm in favor of almost anything that promotes a player using different strategies to clear a POI.

    Then you should have said that because that is NOT diversity of player choice but rules of a dungeon. Its a restriction made specifically for that area, its still not good game design but when the whole place is no stealth it makes sense because the building is alerted but in our case it makes no sense because its just the room auto-failing you.

    • Like 1
  6. 2 hours ago, Kalen said:

    So?  If you want to get technical I'm not actually entering a room either... its just some code that says I am.   Such a room would not bother me in the slightest.... I would equally welcome a room that encourages stealth as I would a room that encourages a straight up fight.   The game needs more diversity, not less.

    Let me point out something important what you too have said right here:


    The game needs more diversity, not less.


    Now please explain how it adds more diversity to the game when an arbitary failure script turns off a gameplay element? Or let me simplicate it even further, if your game is based on matching up same colored tiles atleast 3 in a line or column how does it increase the diversity when you remove one color from the palette?


    We have a ton of combat approaches from throwing in grenades, shooting in a rocket to going melee or go full stealth and you say that removing one of the elements will somehow make it more diverse?


    Lets just make a set of zombies what are healing from fire damage from the player, surely making molotovs and anything burning less useful is adds somekind of diversity to the game because it somehow increases your choice of throwables and mods to use?



    Auto-trigger rooms do one thing precisely, they decrease the diversity of the game because there are much less ways to approach a problem than before.

    • Like 1
  7. 11 hours ago, Kalen said:

    Yeah, that sounds fun.... you enter a room and there are several bandits with AP rounds.   Sure, I could see that as a challenge that makes perfect sense!  Good idea!

    Yeah but thats not what would happen, it would be a room of bandits and your armor would be set to zero while you are in that room.


    Not AP weapons what ignore a armor but a line of code what only happens in a specific place. People will gonna complain about it because at first they will think that the bandits have a better AP round than what they can craft then someone later on reveals thats not the case because this is yet another "You fail because you exist" room setup.

  8. On 11/20/2020 at 11:08 AM, theFlu said:

    Forget my silly mine-ideas, and go for fixing some of the already existing oddness to reach a similar goal; like why wouldn't an aggravated zed occasionally make enough sound to wake all their friends? Maybe just by punching a fridge for the frustrated feeling of hunger combined with the faint memory of there being food there, but not having any idea how the handle on it works? Having "active sleepers" trying to live human lives but failing.. like sitting on the couch, trying to use the remote in an infinite loop.. trying desperately to walk out the front door .. sitting at the dinner table as a happy family, staring into the void in each others arms... each ready to shriek in frustration... sure these would get old too, fast, but... so do all silly tricks.

    These actually sound good, they dont even need to get aggravated about how things dont work just make them generate enough sound that technically all zeds are awake around them.

  9. 4 hours ago, Tahaan said:

    This is a good answer and should be pinned and put in a FAQ somewhere because this keeps coming up.


    Really cool would be if they had a sniffing annimation ... let the zeds that auto-wake-up start with an animation where they sniff the air and look arround for a second before they locate and rush you!!!!

    It would still not fix the key problem which is an auto failure.


    I never really seen many people who advocate of auto failure systems, those are hated regardless of genre and gaming age.

    Your game could have an auto failure where if you dont escape within 1 minute the alarms go off and you now need to fight off the guards, an accuracy check where if you dont reach 90% your are now subjected to the harder mode, enemy design offering an undodgeable, sure-hit attack incase you cant remove a wall torch, etc...


    Simply giving the zombies a line of sight system where with proper movement and careful planning you can get throught is always going to be better than "You exist in the room therefore you are target."

    • Like 1
  10. 10 hours ago, Roland said:

    Same as this game. the zombies are "alerted" through no fault of the player and at first while they are "alerted" they are not immediately even targeting the player. The player can use cover and shadows in classic stealth gameplay to take out the "alerted" enemies. 

    What IS different than any other stealth game is for every single enemy you encounter to be unconscious dormant stationary targets. Frankly, for stealth players to come here and campaign for all enemies to please stay asleep so they can be shot while immobile seems a bit wierd to me. Did you hate how the sentries in MGS would walk patrols and check out noises or start running searches if they found a body? Did you just wish they would all be lying on the ground sleeping?


    Only desiring stealth against unconscious enemies seems...I dunno....

    Not at all but in MSG i if i fail stealth its mostly if not always is because i @%$#ed something up. That body was at the wrong place, was not accurate enough and soo on.


    Also in MSG if i alerted a bunch of enemies that did not mean that they are now having a target lock on my ass compared to here where if you step into a trigger zone the zombies not just wake up and start moving around but they know your exact position and are directly targetting you.

  11. On 11/12/2020 at 10:31 PM, Danidas said:

    I'm pretty sure that most stealth games have scripted events and/or cutscenes that are designed to pull you out of stealth. Grant it in most cases the games are far more polished with built in hand holding to soften the blow but they still pull you out of stealth when the game designers decide that they don't want you to use it.

    Not always unless the mission is directly focused on killing a target but for example some missions in metal gear solid v even when you are confronted with an "alerted" enemy can be done in complete stealth.

  12. 17 hours ago, KhaineGB said:

    Yeah. Just copy 7DTD out of your steam folder, put it somewhere else, patch that copy with DF. That's what I do.

    Otherwise, no. You can't do that. You NEED a second copy of the game to play modded and vanilla.

    Yeah, i made a copy for now. We will decide later if its worth having a secondary version or make it our main game.


  13. 2 hours ago, Kalen said:

    FIrst of all, your first mistake is thinking that there is such a thing as a stealth build.  There is not.   The agility build happens to have some stealth perks (2) but those compliment the build, not define it.

    There are multiple items encouraging a stealth build. Books, perks, armor, there is a steath build presented in the game complimented with everything needed for one.

  14. 3 hours ago, Kalen said:

    So you can't imagine any scenario in which you make no mistakes but still fail?

    Hes kind of right that its a terrible game design.


    You do not fail because you were moving too fast, were careless or simply didnt have high enough stealth. You fail because the situation is scripted for your failure.

    Its the same deal while several people hate ambush cutscenes in video games because it clashes with what was achieved.


    Like imagine that during a mission in Splinter Cell you reached 100% stealth, no one ever seen you, no one got killed or stunned, not a single soul knows you are there because you are moving in the absolute darkness in ventillation shafts soo silently you can hear the guards breathing around and then suddenly cutscene "You kick out the cover of the ventillation shaft directly into a some glass wall and the noise causes the nearby guard to sound the alarm.".


    Like in the ugly picture i posted here, it makes sense for you to trigger an alarm because you stepped into the line of sight of awaken zeds (green) from the door but if you enter from the top parts where there is no vision theres really no reason for them to get alerted.




  15. 40 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

    If they need to rely on that, i really don´t see any problem with a siren going off or something similiar. Make it indestructible and impossible to turn off. Still better than stealth not working for no reason at all and it could even trouble you more than now, because every zombie outside will also be alerted. So even more no stealth fighthing wich is what TFP wants.

    It doesnt even need anything like that.


    Make it trigger on entering the room to wake up all the zeds and place many of them around the poi so the player cant really get rid of them without risking triggering one.

  16. On 10/14/2020 at 4:03 PM, Kalen said:

    Except, maybe they don't want you to know in advance.   Asking for some sort of notification letting you know what happened seems reasonable.   Asking for some sort of warning letting you know whats going to happen is probably not.

    Even if they dont want us to know, just make the zombies awake and moving around.


    Im not sure if theres anything in this game what looks worse then some random shambler doing a full 180 because you entered the room in full stealth gear. Also it doesnt need to be actual warning, these things can be used to set an atmosphere and also its quite possible to suprise a player without going for ceiling zombies and stuck in a furniture setups.




    1. Graveyard and other places where its ambient to find dead in the ground could have some random dead hidden by an instabreak dirt block so the player falls in the hole and has to wrestle with the undead there. Quite scary deal.
    2. If every dead could crawl we could have some fake ventillation point like looking places all around factories and bunkers where the dead crawls out and rushes at us in feral mode after we passed throught that point a bit. Makes people paranoid towards walls.
    3. One dead right behind where a door opens up so hes in coverage is always a good scare.
    4. The runner strike i mentioned has no signs expect the runner rushing at you and exploding alerting every dead in the building.
    5. Turn all the fake bodies ingame into zombie looking ones and randomly make one of them into zombies when hit.
    • Like 1
  17. On 10/12/2020 at 11:07 PM, Kalen said:

    Good ideas.... But:


    Either these traps are avoidable (by breaking or avoiding the blocks or killing the POI screamer) which TFP do not, apparently, want.

    Or they're unavoidable, which, as @Roland stated, would be super frustrating for people to actually see the trap but still be unable to avoid.


    To me, the best option would be some sort of "off camera" audio signal.   Not the most immersive idea, but at least it would clue the player in to the fact that something happened.

    I would much more prefer the idea electrical traps and warning signs.

    The problem is much more simple since we have 2 types of rooms avoidable sleepers and trigger ready sleepers, so all we need is the following:


    For the avoidable ones i propose the rigged doors and other actually avoidable traps. The idea is that they look like regular doors and bocks but when you open/hit them they make a loud noise. Examples:


    • A potted plant on a flimsy chair next to the door. When you open the door the plant falls and shatters alerting the undead. To avoid it you need to find where the plant is and go around it raising your stealth high enough would decrease the chance of triggering this one to 100%.
    • A beaten up door, same idea as previously expect that this door falls out of its place when opened.
    • Tripwire set up to a hidden speaker. Just not touch it.
    • Simple puzzle system where you need to walk around in a pattern to not trigger movement sensors or to place some weight on the right pressure plate to open the door.


    For the unavoidable ones i propose the idea of visual marking and no sleeper function. Examples:


    • Already awakened zeds and masses of bodies infront of the door. Pretty simple deal.
    • "AMBUSH" and other warning signs. The idea is to make the player know that there might be a trap in the room, there doesnt need to be always one to keep the players on edge. For example put the "Rabid dead!" on the boiler room in the shotgun messiah factory where the burning guys spawn, now there are no spawns in the actual room because they are on the other side of the room.
    • Runner strike. Simply let loose one bloodmoon type feral screamer in the POI what tracks the player and tries to fight it, when the screamer gets attacked it explodes triggering nearby zeds to attack.
  18. 1 hour ago, Tehnomaag said:

    Put down player built blocks on all ground tiles within the perimeter. Zeds are supposed to spawn only on "natural" ground tiles. However, I'm not 100% certain it helps in a19 as something might have changed, because I saw some zombies to spawn on the roof of a nearby skyscraper during the blood moon. 

    It still works but you need to change the pois a bit, even applying paint is enough to offhold the spawns.

    • Like 1
  19. Just now, Kalen said:

    Uh oh.... don't say things like that to a math guy!

    I know my math is kind of.....busted but you get what i mean even if it would make my math teacher commit sudoku.

    7 minutes ago, Roland said:

    I posted the same thing but Laz said it would be problematic if you had several dupes in your backpack. Which would get eaten to make the repair. Really, just making the parts be the repair materials is the same thing. Then you could cannibalize dupes for parts in order to repair. Same thing.

    But it still means that found items would be forever.  

    Yeah i figured you would need to find a way to exclude the weapon from eating itself to repair itself and which one to use up for the repair.

    How does reforging sound?


    We could make a forge recipe what uses up 2 Pistols to make a Pistol. This way the only issue left is the T6 item quality but we could probably just cut that quality out and replace it with an identical pistol what has these stats at base but its untiered like the nailgun (or just make all items untiered and let the perks handle the stats).

  20. 2 minutes ago, Roland said:

    I'm sure it is exciting. It also isn't the rarity that many people were claiming that they would be happy with. Turns out that "I would be happy as long as there was a very very rare chance of finding a great gun" is actually "I'm loving finding the good stuff right away again". Why are you willing to have T6 gear fenced off from Day 1 but not taking it a few steps further? How do you know that there isn't someone else who will uninstall if there is zero chance at T6 gear on Day 1?


    I'm sure they would answer your post with "I would be happy as long as there was a very very rare chance of finding a T6 gun"


    I really am for a rare chance at good guns as long as that is paired with degradation so that whatever you find in the first week isn't a golden ticket to the rest of the game. You talk about the excitement of getting that Blue Steel Mace on day 2 but then fail to mention the pointlessness of opening chests and getting brown, orange, yellow, and green Steel Maces, Baseball bats, and wooden clubs for days 3 on. And when I say rare chance I mean you might get a yellow iron pickaxe from a car during the first week once every five play throughs. Super rare.  Not 4%.


    4% was vomiting rarity and based on the number of rant threads about vomiting, nobody felt 4% was particularly rare at all...

    Honestly theres nothing else, before today this was the only loot mod made. Now we have @Boidster's loot lottery mod too so people could switch if they want.


    All i wanted is a mod what makes the looting randomised, so i dont swim in the same stone gear for ages. I think im gonna go and edit that mod around so it progresses like 4%, 3%, 1.5%, 0,5% or find out just which exact setting controls quality tiers and manipulate that.


    Also on a sidenot due to how this game works theres no such thing as "rare find". In a game like Warframe an item drop with 4% chance is almost impossible to get but here you can go as low as 0.1% and it would still mean that you run a fairly good chance of getting an item from that rarity group because of the number of lootable containers. At 4% you need to find 25 containers to reach the mathematical 100% chance, at 0.01% you need 100 containers but thats like 10 days.

  21. 1 hour ago, Boidster said:

    And modding out repair kits (or, voluntarily not using them if you are as iron-willed as Roland is) gets close enough IMO anyway. Lower quality items wear out faster, higher quality items are more durable, as already coded. The diamond blade mod becomes quite useful. Until the iron tools are pretty common in loot, that stone stuff is looking pretty good, eh?


    I need to talk to my co-op partner about whether he'd be down with a no-repair game. I wonder if the game supports recursive recipies. As a joke, I'd make the Repair Kit recipe require 2 Repair Kits as inputs. 😄

    Or if you are good enough with modding you could make items need themselves to be repaired.


    Essentially make sure that you take out parts of a working AK47 to repair your favorite AK47. This would probably be more immmersion fitting to cobble together weapons than straight up just removing the ability to repair.

    • Like 1
  • Create New...