[Please make stealth build CHEAPER]

29 minutes ago, katarynna said:

watched kage848's stealth play through. I especially remember one of the t5 pois he did at night. It was either higashi or dishong.

 

He would be crouched with no light. He would step over the trigger and the zombies would wake and head right for where he stepped over the trigger. He would remain crouched and back up 5 or 6 steps. The zombies would get to the spot je triggered them and just stand there. He would step forward a step or 2 and kill them from stealth with a machete. There would usually be 2-3 zombies at least, and they wouldn't even detect him when he killed the friend standing right beside them.\

 

It happened over and over and over. When they auto-awakened, they were just triggered to the spot, not the player. As long as you moved a few steps away, like literally 5-6 steps, they absolutely had no idea you were there.

That sounds awesome, thanks!! I have to try it next time 🙂

[Please make stealth build CHEAPER]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Even a strength build will not wake up every zombie in a room when he uses the sledgehammer (I'm almost sure of that). But that is beside the point, I would say that auto-trigger rooms were implenemented for the stealth player. Exclusively.

 

Why? To make stealth not auto-sleep walking through pois shooting at sleeping puppets. Not that it didn't keep lots of stealth players amused, but a rule TFP designs with is that no gain should come without effort or danger. And maybe stealth was slow to play but it was almost devoid of risk.

 

I understand the reasoning - I think the implementation is problematic on many fronts, but I recognize the problem they saw, and them implementing this change to counter it.

I am not actively pushing for a change in this matter, but I think this big weakness is a fair argument for why the stealth build needs a little tunning.

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

I would assume that for TFP the "resource" aspect was fullfilled because you save lots of ammo (the equivalent of getting more resources is saving resources).

Again, I can understand that this was the design intent, but as you stated, I would argue that this isn't nearly enough. In fact, this doesn't really make a dent, in my opinion.

As STR miner, I have all the powder and lead I could ever need, and brass is (fortunately) no longer the scarce resource it once was (Thanks, GJ Fun Pimps!).

Even when I play different attribute, or just plainly don't mine, I use melee a LOT. It's actually very well done, and can be pretty powerful. I save bullets for when I am in real trouble, or for the blood moon, and those are exactly the moments stealth is not an option either.

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Making stealth cheaper has (IMHO) unwanted consequences, for example the AGI player will be fully perked faster after which the game looses incentive to continue or at least his further perk points loose in value as he can't boost his strengths any further. And it definitely will help everyone else to get stealth abilities cheaper on the side.

You have to branch out of stealth/agi anyway. For the mentioned utilities, but for the combat as well. Sneaking won't help you much on bloodmoon, or when you just get jumped. 

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Now if you can convince TFP that AGI still needs a resource gathering perk they maybe would have to move perk points over from say stealth so the attributes have (somewhat or exactly?) the same points. Then you would get your wish through the back door 😉

 

Incidentally a resource just became scarce and could benefit from a resource gathering perk: I'm speaking of water 🤪

That would be dope, a great suggestion 😄 I can picture it now - could be named "Be water, my friend" (~Bruce Lee,  so it fits the ninja theme 😄 )

[Please make stealth build CHEAPER]

On 11/16/2022 at 12:13 AM, Kyonshi said:

You keep saying that playing stealthy is "expensive" and again, you're wrong. I crossed the 3300 hours mark on this game (and this number isn't even in the highest!) and like I've said, I play stealth on every map I generate. I know what I'm talking about regarding player-side.

 

Those are some respectable numbers, I myself am little over 2K, tried different builds across a number of maps. I have no problem, with people who say they have played a lot, and say that the stealth is exactly to their liking, and that they don't want any changed. That is cool, valid, personal preference, I'd say exactly the same as me saying 'I've played a lot and there are issues'.

 

On 11/16/2022 at 12:13 AM, Kyonshi said:

Now, about the real issue here. People who claimed there was an issue with stealth in this game, with a panoply of skewed arguments and excuses, have either been explained the real functioning of the feature and/or had their statements debunked. You won't make any difference with your case.

Now, I don't know who the debunked people are and what they have been debunked with, they don't relate to me, I'm calling this paragraph completely irrelevant.
 

On 11/16/2022 at 12:13 AM, Kyonshi said:

aside from the auto-trigger areas, but those will happen to anyone, stealth or not.

Well, the auto-trigger areas trigger FOR everyone, but affect almost exclusively stealth build. When you play strengh build, and smash the door in with flaming sledgehammer, every room acts as an auto-trigger room, rendering the triggers themselfs completely irrelevant.  Honestly, I think logic is so obvious, I am amazed how people miss this.

 

This very fact, along with the fact that AGI attribute is the only attribute that doesn't provide any utility in form of building, resource gathering or survival, is making this build fall behind the others. Some quick-and-easy fix, like lowering the attribute requirement to pick up some perks, is something that would not destroy the game, and would help this dope ninja fantasy a ton.

[Please make stealth build CHEAPER]

36 minutes ago, Kyonshi said:

Good lord, what's with this incessant whining about stealth game mechanics?

 

There's always someone @%$#ing about this it seems. Why do people wanna breeze through 7DTD like it's Splinter Cell?? That's not this type of game at all. And there's a couple of misconceptions about your rant, if not completely inaccurate claims and wrong way to play.

 

I play 95% of the time, in all my playthroughs, using stealth. Big fan, big user. Building up your survivor in that sense isn't "expensive". NV goggles aren't fundamental, nor muffling mods. Wear Padded Armor, it's good enough and produces zero noise. Switch to something more sturdy for Blood Moons. All those cool items are just nice extras to add to an already efficient, basic stealth approach.

 

You don't need to max out From The Shadows... Already at level 2, you have a nice difference. Hidden Strike isn't an obligation. You have 3x flat damage bonus with arrows and since you already put points in AGI, you have a headshot bonus on top of that PLUS the level 2-3 bow you made. It's plenty enough of damage.

 

By putting point in From The Shadows will make you move faster while crouching. Do you read the descriptions at all? Of course you'll be slower though: people can't sprint while crouching. And if someone wants to be stealthy, the best thing to do is to... move slowly.

 

Building up AGI isn't more expensive than any other attribute. It makes sense. You don't become proficient at something easy-peasy. It takes experience, you know.

I don't understand what made you so angry about my post, but please, try to keep things civil.

 

I am relatively new on this forum, but, if people post this suggestion repeatedly, there might be some merit after all, don't you think?

 

To adress the point you were making, you don't need much in terms of equipment or perks from the start, of course. But, as the gamestage progresses, the game spawns more difficult enemies, you start going for higher tier POI's == you need more then just the basic stuff. But this is true for every build and every attribute, it's just that the stealth doesn't really help you all that much, but it's very expensive to invest into.

[Please make stealth build CHEAPER]

Holy hell, thank you guys for so many inputs and responses...

 

16 hours ago, Roland said:

I think these are some false assumptions:

 

1) The POIs haven’t been reworked for stealth

2) People don’t play stealth very much

3) The game has a “stealth build”

4) You have to go for your shotgun if zombies wake up in a room. 

 

Roland, thank you for your reponse, you're absolutely right in stating I just assume how the POI's are implemented based on my own observation, and I don't know squat about how the implementation actually looks like, also I do not really know if ppl play stealth very much - again, I only assume by watching some streams and stuff, which is a very small sample size to make assuption about the rest of playerbase.

On the other hand, I think there is a stealth build in the game, as I understand the term as a bunch of weapons, tools, mods, and perks specificaly tailored towards stealth gameplay, and those just are factually present.

For the last point, you are technicaly correct, but the shotgun was there just to demonstrate a point, it's not to be taken literally, it can be replaced by a machine gun, sledgehammer, or whatever. On this point, I would also like to add, that bow is usually bad choice for this situation, because I have noticed, that sometimes arrows fly THROUGH the zeds, if they get close enough....

 

14 hours ago, Roland said:

I just want to make it clear that this is not a stealth game with a traditional "stealth build" that will allow a fully kitted out player to approach every situation with stealth and be 100% successful. Maybe that is a bad choice by the designers. Regardless, as players we can adopt an understanding of how stealth works in this game and adjust our expectations to find relief from disappointment until/if the devs adjust their vision to match what we want.

 

I realize this is not a stealth game really, and not every single challenge in the game can/should be overcome by stealth, I AGREE actually! My point was, literally: stealth is, at best, a decent help in some situations (it's not even that, really, i just like to play it for a bit of roleplay) but it costs you waaayyyyy too many points to be even worth it. Honestly, if you take all those points, put it into other combat perks, you are gonna be immortal death god, that has no need for stealth anyway. I feel like we talk about the same thing, really, I only argue for a little knob tunning. This is not a stealth game, stealth is a side mechanics that can help you sometimes if you know what you're doing, BUT to even go that route, you have to sacrifice wayyy too much.

[Please make stealth build CHEAPER]

I won't try to reiterate on the point of trigger rooms, as it has been mentioned 300 times already, and nobody's gonna rework all those POI - especially not for stealth builds, since ppl don't really play them that much anyway.

But please, as you're currently working on the perk system anyway, consider making changes to the stealth build, so that it is less expensive.
It feels bad having to invest bilion points into AGI attribute, 4 points into "From the shadows", few points into "Hidden strike", a little mandatory "Archery", buying night vision, military stealth boots, equiping noise reduction mod into all your armor, then moving slow as heck, only to have to go for your shotgun in the second room....