let me get this right

[Krougal]

roland, stop pretending you care. It's blatantly obvious you're just here to crush our dreams and give us pinkeye. You don't even have pinkeye yourself, and you're giving it to us!!! Why? That's not the point, it's just well known that you've been doing this all along.

 

Stop with your reasonable-answer crap too. If we wanted a reasonable answer, we'd have asked a reasonable question! Ah-ha! Where's your vaunted logic and slick silver tongued soliloquies now huh??

 

Just because you added all that so-called pre-forge content into the game doesn't mean we want to use it!

 

Stone axes and shovels? Shivs? Blunderbuss, bows, wooden clubs, iron clubs, torches, all that stupid padded armor?? Why would i want to play the game with that crap! That's for n00bs! Do i look like captain caveman??

 

I didn't want to spend 30 minutes to level up and get forge technology, and now i have to level up my int....like...a lot?!? And no, i'm not going hunting for a poi forge. How can i hunt for forges when there are vulture/bear/dog packs out there and i don't have a forge yet?? What? No smartass reply??

 

Stop picking on us just because we're brave enough to speak out against the voices that try to crush us under their jackboots every time any of us voice our tiniest concerns! We paid for this game too, and are entitled to be heard!!

 

 

-colrom

 

omg! Lmfao

[Krougal]

I was against attribute gating because it stops early specialization. So we removed attribute gates and hoped the steeper prices of attributes would keep people out of steel for several weeks, but they teamed up and got INT 10 on day 5 or less. Thats like having Tek gear in ark after 5 hours, when it takes literally 6 months to get tek gear in that game if you play casually for 3 hours a day.

 

Perk gating is best for the game to ensure some delayed gratification and continued challenge. If you get the best gear in the game on day 1 or even day 10, then there is no challenge and the game gets boring very quickly. You might as well just start a new character... and wait why bother you got everything on day 1 again. You guys might as well type CM in and get the stuff you think you deserve on day 1. You could turn the difficulty down too, it has the same effect. But that doesn't work against other players in pvp or give you bragging rights in pve.

 

There is still great value in getting an attribute to 10 and specializing early game. We're just blocking you from getting the best tech super early because once progression feels stalled out, any game gets boring. Once I got to level 100 in Ark and got the best stuff and couldn't gain any more levels, I quit. I didn't think I would, but I suddenly lost interest. Same thing happens in Fallout at level 40-50 and in Skyrim. Once you get the best gear and hit god status, the reason to play suddenly vanishes for most players.

 

We can always add an xp slider for those who can't stand not being god can hit end game in 10% of the time. And those who want a long grind can slow it down easily.

 

Early specialization? Are you ♥♥♥♥ing kidding me...10 int now, how many levels is that? What exactly do you define as early I guess? And to be so extremely specialized as to have no other skills at all. Bleh!

 

In general I don't even like the idea of level gates and I thought the skill system as it was originally released for A17 was just fine, level gates and all.

 

Yes, I realize I am very much in the minority here. </rant>

[CoolJ]

That statement assumes a lot.

 

Can you prove they aren't following a plan?

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you don't really have anything to back up that statement.

You've inferred this from the experience you've perceived.

 

I see something very different.

A development process that adapts to goals and ideas as it moves forward.

Things have to be altered and change to get past hurdles.

 

Take UMA zeds for instance.

GREAT idea that allowed us Modders to make custom zeds.

The engine hated it ... so it needed to be changed.

Well... that's part of development.

That doesn't mean TFP didn't have a plan, it means the tech couldn't support the idea as it was so TFP had to adapt.

What we got in the end were great looking Zeds and much better performance.

 

But you see that as an unguided mistake right?

See...... this is your chosen perceived reality.

Can't help you with that man.

 

Yea, get back to me when when what is happening doesn't match my "chosen perceived reality".

Look, I want to see this succeed just as much as anyone. Take it from someone in the business. I have worked for organizations that try to develop software this way. I know what it looks like. I know how much of this crap could be avoided all together. I have made these mistakes before. It would be wrong for me not to levy these criticisms to a group of people that I respect and that I want to see succeed. If I wanted them to fail, then I wouldn't say a damned thing.

 

White knight all you want. There is a saying in the community that I come from.

 

"Orbital bombardment will continue until morale improves!"

[dregonazure]

i feel like the real issue here is lack of content for those at the end game, if people are getting bored once their character has progressed enough, maybe it would be best if there was some end goal for them to work towards that wasnt related to exp, some facility that you need to clear to work on a vacine or some npc settlement to build up and defend the npcs there, something to give the player that has reached endgame something to do

[Randomdude]

White knight all you want.

 

He's a YES man. That's kind of what he does around here. (AND MEMES!!!) sorry...

 

I read your comments as constructive and to be honest, feel the same way. Direction seems to be a problem, if not, the pendulum wouldn't swing so hard when changing something that people don't want or they themselves find unbalanced.

[Kaiote]

He's a YES man. That's kind of what he does around here. (AND MEMES!!!) sorry...

 

I read your comments as constructive and to be honest, feel the same way. Direction seems to be a problem, if not, the pendulum wouldn't swing so hard when changing something that people don't want or they themselves find unbalanced.

 

Shirking off an opposing opinion by belittling it by using "white knight" or "yes man" seems pretty lame in my opinion. If given a choice between meme's and rando's claiming to be inside industry experts, I'll take Spongebob thanks.

[LuckyStar]

Yea, get back to me when when what is happening doesn't match my "chosen perceived reality".

Look, I want to see this succeed just as much as anyone. Take it from someone in the business. I have worked for organizations that try to develop software this way. I know what it looks like. I know how much of this crap could be avoided all together. I have made these mistakes before. It would be wrong for me not to levy these criticisms to a group of people that I respect and that I want to see succeed. If I wanted them to fail, then I wouldn't say a damned thing.

 

White knight all you want. There is a saying in the community that I come from.

 

"Orbital bombardment will continue until morale improves!"

 

If this were a released build you might have a leg to stand on but it's experimental.

I feel you're "assessment" is a little early.

 

Though I won't discount all you've said here.

 

I think TFP have, like ALL developers, make some less than excellent choices.

I've seen exactly what you're talking about in major corporations as well.

Companies don't always take the best or most efficient route.

 

Is there a learning process going on, yeah... I see it too.

 

Doesn't mean they won't get to where they need to be.

Try to remember, this is TFP's first major project.

It's going to take time and they will make mistakes.

 

Try not to be too hard on them.

[PoppaTot]

If this were a released build you might have a leg to stand on but it's experimental.

I feel you're "assessment" is a little early.

 

Though I won't discount all you've said here.

 

I think TFP have, like ALL developers, make some less than excellent choices.

I've seen exactly what you're talking about in major corporations as well.

Companies don't always take the best or most efficient route.

 

Is there a learning process going on, yeah... I see it too.

 

Doesn't mean they won't get to where they need to be.

Try to remember, this is TFP's first major project.

It's going to take time and they will make mistakes.

 

Try not to be too hard on them.

 

Though I agree with you, I can't help but to play "Devil's Advocate" here.

 

At what point during a 5+ year Alpha development cycle do you think it would be appropriate to go hard on them?

[CoolJ]

If this were a released build you might have a leg to stand on but it's experimental.

I feel you're "assessment" is a little early.

 

Though I won't discount all you've said here.

 

I think TFP have, like ALL developers, make some less than excellent choices.

I've seen exactly what you're talking about in major corporations as well.

Companies don't always take the best or most efficient route.

 

Is there a learning process going on, yeah... I see it too.

 

Doesn't mean they won't get to where they need to be.

Try to remember, this is TFP's first major project.

It's going to take time and they will make mistakes.

 

Try not to be too hard on them.

 

If they didn't already have my money then your argument would make sense. They chose the path to involve the community in the development. They can't have it both ways. Conventionally, this would all happen behind closed doors. This is not conventional. Therefor conventional arguments do not apply. They are selling this game. WIP or not. It is a product for sale and there is some expectation of competence and playablility.

[Randomdude]

5+ year Alpha development cycle do you think it would be appropriate to go hard on them?

 

This is about being real and letting them know how we feel. No disrespect is ever intended for the team in a personal way.

 

I've been playing games all my life and to be honest this game has gotten my attention in a way I never expected it to. My "gaming" senses are tingling and that's why I'm so invested (if you wanna call it that) and get so disappointed when they try to make the game "harder" with decisions I <----- believe to be dumb.

[PoppaTot]

This is about being real and letting them know how we feel. No disrespect is ever intended for the team in a personal way.

 

I've been playing games all my life and to be honest this game has gotten my attention in a way I never expected it to. My "gaming" senses are tingling and that's why I'm so invested (if you wanna call it that) and get so disappointed when they try to make the game "harder" with decisions I <----- believe to be dumb.

 

I totally get it, I first played this game drunk on Halloween a couple years ago because a buddy of mine kept telling me I would love it. I played it and never gave it shot, I just wanted to drunk kill zambies. Played like 2 hours and shelved it for a year. I picked it back up and gave it a fair shot and actually learned how to play it. I've been hooked since and really LOVED A16.4 because I never exploited it like I hear so many did.

 

I was initially upset that everything was pretty much scrapped and A17e started over. I did the same thing and didn't give it a proper shot.

 

I really enjoy A17e now, not as much as I did with A16.4's RNG, RWG, and learn by doing, but I do enjoy it and wish TFP would just pick a path and get us to stable now. Seems the pendulum keeps swinging on issues that don't seem that pressing (to me).

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Morloc]

My Seven Days of Love

(Original poetry by: CoolJ, inspired by Madmole)

 

 

 

Your problem is there is no progression at all in this game.

There is have and have not.

Doesn't help that you refuse to follow convention.

In it self is fine and noble, but really starts to suck when you have no concept of where you are taking any of this.

Why is this just being tested out now?

Where is your comprehensive plan?

What is the end game?

Plans almost never work out the way they were originally intended, but having no plan is planning for failure.

 

 

 

 

-Morloc

[Roland]

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

I think I've got a $1.98 of your pennies in my pocket as of now...

[Randomdude]

I think I've got a $1.98 of your pennies in my pocket as of now...

 

HAHAHAHAHA

 

Ok, that was funny.

[PoppaTot]

I think I've got a $1.98 of your pennies in my pocket as of now...

 

I like your style.... 2 more cents.... had to get you to that $2

[Bandicoot]

They cut the level gates in general because they wanted people to have the freedom to specialize but they also want spacers between the tech levels. When they very first switched to a point economy gate from level gate they said that they would be looking at doing some surgical level gates to certain perks in order to give each tech level its era.

 

What's to be confused about?

 

A15 (mostly passive leveling) --> A16 (less passive leveling and more point spending and level gating) --> A17 (all point spending and level gating) --> (all point spending and no level gating) --> (all point spending and limited level gating)

 

Throughout all of this the concept of starting gimped and progressing to super has been the same. This seems like standard development of concept and experimentation that would go on before the final release. If development is confusing and disorienting and unpleasant then wait for the full release. Not one single person who purchases this game after it releases will go through the process illustrated above and will never have played the game with those different settings. They will just know the one where it finally settled after trial and error and experimentation.

 

i get your points, what confused me the most was 1.5 years of dev to get it changed completely 2 weeks after. the time span is what makes it confusing. altho are now more in line with what ppl wanted they are also not exactly what TFP says thes are. what i mean by this is the specialization thingy, because once u get high enough in lvl u can unlock everything anyway. i can easely grind like 50 levels each play session since now the goal now is to powerlevel in order to get the skills. only thing that makes it difficult is having glowing ferals at lvl 70 spawning already in mass. but yeh its doable anyway.

[Bandicoot]

I would much prefer book rng instead of, here's your forge/minibike/auger/ect. just because you spent a point here.

 

RNG and searching/looting everything made for such unique playthroughs imo.

 

gave a purpose for looting everything too. now i dont even need to worry where to find coal and nitrate cuz there are so many weapons i get bullets all the time. in roughly one week me and 2 mates we got like 10k 7.62 in a chest without counting the other bullets and the one spent.

[Roland]

I would say you certainly CAN powerlevel by grinding out zombie kills but I wouldn't say that doing so is the recognized design goal of the current system.

 

What I am hoping is that the developers are finally coming to the realization that whatever system they put in place grinders gonna grind. So stop worrying about it and create the system that supports the fun playstyle they are envisioning. There will always be Speedy McSpeedsters who will complain that the endgame came too soon because of what they chose to do.

[JaxTeller718]

See? Making up metaphorical dialogues is fun!

 

Not as fun as making up fantasy hit sitcoms

 

What they have against the forge is simple. Nothing. It's a tier 2 building station and is treated as such. Not meant to be had on day one. Why? Because that is what THEY wish to see in THEIR game.

 

Concrete on day 2 with NO other consequence is deemed a bit OP in their eyes and rightfully so. Concrete takes away a big portion of the danger, and iron tools reduces the workload by more than half. So a little waiting is necessary. Its ok, you will get there. Patience is a virtue and like Faatal has pointed out it's very easy to bypass these mechanics you don't agree with. It's called Creative.

 

SAWCE

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?74084-Developer-Discussions-Alpha-17&p=911285&viewfull=1#post911285

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I would say you certainly CAN powerlevel by grinding out zombie kills but I wouldn't say that doing so is the recognized design goal of the current system.

 

What I am hoping is that the developers are finally coming to the realization that whatever system they put in place grinders gonna grind. So stop worrying about it and create the system that supports the fun playstyle they are envisioning. There will always be Speedy McSpeedsters who will complain that the endgame came too soon because of what they chose to do.

 

During the inception of Ravenhearst over a year ago I stress tested V1 on our whitelist. We had three players who min/maxed and bragged over it. I tore apart my mod and redesigned it to fight THEM and their play style. Lost half my server pop and never gained them back. I can attest to this statement, make the game YOU want and dont try to fight the fringe. It can be costly.

[Guppycur]

Wait... You made ravenherst?!?

[Kirtonos]

Though I agree with you, I can't help but to play "Devil's Advocate" here.

 

At what point during a 5+ year Alpha development cycle do you think it would be appropriate to go hard on them?

 

QFT. I tried during the early days of A16 to get people to stop calling this an alpha especially when A15 was a shipped port to console. Here we are 15+ months later still on an experimental A17 build but that's cool, this isn't the final stable product.

[Kirtonos]

I would say you certainly CAN powerlevel by grinding out zombie kills but I wouldn't say that doing so is the recognized design goal of the current system.

 

What I am hoping is that the developers are finally coming to the realization that whatever system they put in place grinders gonna grind. So stop worrying about it and create the system that supports the fun playstyle they are envisioning. There will always be Speedy McSpeedsters who will complain that the endgame came too soon because of what they chose to do.

 

This is a hard lesson for developers to learn. You can make your time to level spreadsheet, put in time to acquire goals, and make the graphs look all pretty but none of that survives contact with the player base. There will always be some percentage of your playerbase that is able to sprint to "the end" in a fraction of the time that the rest. While you can hinder those folks some, you risk alienating just about everyone else. That's currently what is happening with the early game in these builds.

[lazyknob]

Though I agree with you, I can't help but to play "Devil's Advocate" here.

 

At what point during a 5+ year Alpha development cycle do you think it would be appropriate to go hard on them?

 

I have to say, at this juncture, many of us are secretly wishing the Alpha never ends in all honesty. No sarcasm here.

[Randomdude]

I would say you certainly CAN powerlevel by grinding out zombie kills but I wouldn't say that doing so is the recognized design goal of the current system.

 

What I am hoping is that the developers are finally coming to the realization that whatever system they put in place grinders gonna grind. So stop worrying about it and create the system that supports the fun playstyle they are envisioning. There will always be Speedy McSpeedsters who will complain that the endgame came too soon because of what they chose to do.

 

+1

 

Living underground is an example of this. TFP thought it was not the way intended and (re)added digging zombies. Many people thought it was unbalanced and fought against it. Eventually and by the looks of it, a slider will be added to make digging optional. All that time was used in something that is now an option... instead of using it for the, as you put it, "fun playstyle they are envisioning".

 

All arguments are: "I dont like players who cheese by living underground" = "but you don't HAVE to do it yourself" = "Then turn off zombies"

 

Its a catch 22... TFP won't win that and they don't have to. Keep making your game and let players do their thing and what makes them happy. When there's game breaking stuff that you feel that EVERYBODY is doing IT to "cheese" a certain situation, then you deal with it. Other than that, let them be FREE.

[CoolJ]

I have to say, at this juncture, many of us are secretly wishing the Alpha never ends in all honesty. No sarcasm here.

 

Why? I would really prefer they finish this game. I hope it is a huge success and that allows them to make another with newfound wisdom and greater resources. In the future I want to see TFP right up there with Rockstar and CDPR. There is plenty of room at the top. Certainly, as long as companies like Bethesda seem so willing power dive their way to the bottom, there are voids to fill.