HIREDGUN Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 A17 is pretty awesome. I like it a bunch. However On horde nights I see many players log out, not because they are wimps (well maybe some) but because Horde night zombies are too OP for "normal" base defences... and I think tere could be a very simple fix. Instead of building a cage of Pillars as we could in A15/(early A16?) that you could melee through until it was eventually compromised and you had to retreat to another area/layer of defence ... we see elaborate base designs needing to use weird "time wasting" methods on the zombies or floating bases or employing massive amounts of resources and layers only to have the zombies laser focus to make one path in (and ALL of them are SUPER Genius knowing when and what path to attack)... This makes no sence. Realizm with A17 is out the door when it comes to the Horde on horde night. Whatever Bonus Zombies got to block damage in A16 is causing them to chew through defenses too quick. (reinforced concrete on day 7 took only 6 game mins) That's Crazy for 8 (low level) zombies to do. Yeah, It worked in A16 because we all just build platfroms for them to mill around under... But in A17 with increased AI, players are FORCED for build crazy structures to have some sort of long term defense. MY POINT: The server I played A16 on had massive horde nights with no limit to the number 16 at a time ALL NIGHT LONG... That was a blast to be hyped (actively) defending and repairing the horde spot to keep the MASSIVE NUMBERS of Zombies at bay... The Strength was not in the first 16 that appeared shredding your base like tissue paper but the fact that they would do damage ALL NIGHT LONG little by little each one pecking away... SO... I would hope TFP would listen and maybe work to allow massive amounts of waves instead of 8 zombies blowing through your tissue-paper defenses in 6 mins ... Just nerfing the Bonus damages? or whatever was changed that they grind through defenses so fast... Is it just me or do some other veterans feel the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nighty Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Yes, they are radiculous. Reduce their block damage. Also zombies kneeling insteed of standing deal massively more damage as their attack speed is comparable to a machine gun, seen a 500 hp block getting shred in few seconds by a lone zombie during the day and not horde night so imagine 8 by default stacked inside eachother or some even on top of eachother so they get that machine gun attack speed bonus and with night bonus and group bonus not to mention also difficulty so they get slightly even more damage and they are also massively more spongy compared to nomad newbie zombies (actualy, no need to imagine, thou didst see how fast they chew on things). Now is either we don't let zombies touch the thing or the thing instantly explodes, not to mention they get a weakest wall spot gps built in so if any block gets damaged in balanced base then instantly all zombies will go there bcs of least resistance. No wonder there are those exploity "bases" that make them not touch the base at all, bcs if they touched, there would be nothing left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 I don't want to see them change it. I like that zombies are stronger now. It's more of a challenge. A simple design that has no real thought put into it made by day 3 .... .... won't cut it anymore. Now you really have to be clever and you have to work for it. That's a good thing right? That sense of accomplishment when you earn something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Now you really have to be clever and you have to work for it. I just shack up on the 2nd floor of a sizable poi with walls made of stone or concrete and destroy the stairs. Make a hole in the floor and watch them mill about or attack random parts of the wall, pick them off as I see fit. For later horde nights it's either exploiting the AI with a kill funnel or a stilt base with enough redundant supports. I'm looking forward to new iterations of the A17 AI, but I don't think single player 7dtd will ever require players to be smart beyond knowing the limits of zombie movement/pathfinding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomdude Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 A17 is pretty awesome. I like it a bunch. However On horde nights I see many players log out, not because they are wimps (well maybe some) but because Horde night zombies are too OP for "normal" base defences... and I think tere could be a very simple fix. Instead of building a cage of Pillars as we could in A15/(early A16?) that you could melee through until it was eventually compromised and you had to retreat to another area/layer of defence ... we see elaborate base designs needing to use weird "time wasting" methods on the zombies or floating bases or employing massive amounts of resources and layers only to have the zombies laser focus to make one path in (and ALL of them are SUPER Genius knowing when and what path to attack)... This makes no sence. Realizm with A17 is out the door when it comes to the Horde on horde night. Whatever Bonus Zombies got to block damage in A16 is causing them to chew through defenses too quick. (reinforced concrete on day 7 took only 6 game mins) That's Crazy for 8 (low level) zombies to do. Yeah, It worked in A16 because we all just build platfroms for them to mill around under... But in A17 with increased AI, players are FORCED for build crazy structures to have some sort of long term defense. MY POINT: The server I played A16 on had massive horde nights with no limit to the number 16 at a time ALL NIGHT LONG... That was a blast to be hyped (actively) defending and repairing the horde spot to keep the MASSIVE NUMBERS of Zombies at bay... The Strength was not in the first 16 that appeared shredding your base like tissue paper but the fact that they would do damage ALL NIGHT LONG little by little each one pecking away... SO... I would hope TFP would listen and maybe work to allow massive amounts of waves instead of 8 zombies blowing through your tissue-paper defenses in 6 mins ... Just nerfing the Bonus damages? or whatever was changed that they grind through defenses so fast... Is it just me or do some other veterans feel the same? Agreed. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomdude Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 That's a good thing right? That sense of accomplishment when you earn something? A little condescending, don't you think? (INSERT MEME HERE) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIREDGUN Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 I don't want to see them change it. I like that zombies are stronger now. It's more of a challenge. A simple design that has no real thought put into it made by day 3 .... .... won't cut it anymore. Now you really have to be clever and you have to work for it. That's a good thing right? That sense of accomplishment when you earn something? Oh I'm not talking about a simple design, even complex layered designs get trashed. It's Absurd the direction one must build now to defeat/battle the strength of their attacks now.. I have built a great "machine" to keep them busy during horde nights but my point is THAT Should not be the Normal. Anyone should be able to build some defense that can slow them enough to be "managable" for the horde night. What "works" now is not what you would do in real life, it is SO unreal. In reality you would build a layered defense and they would destroy their bodies as they beat their bodies against hard surfaces... Maybe that is a solution they do the same damage to themselves as they do to the reinforced concrete... Humm... The challenge is fine, the problem is coming up with crazy contraptions and paths and jump routines and drops to make the zombies do calestetics while you kill them so that what you built is "somewhat" intact because of the amount of damage doled out to a specific spot in your horde spot in such a short period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIREDGUN Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 I just shack up on the 2nd floor of a sizable poi with walls made of stone or concrete and destroy the stairs. Make a hole in the floor and watch them mill about or attack random parts of the wall, pick them off as I see fit. And this kind of play brings me to the other part of the problem... players finding the largest poi and letting the zombies totally destroy the poi that horde... For single play that is fine but imagine a MP dedi with 8 active players all destroying 8 poi's every 7 days... it just doesnt seem like a good game model if all the loot containers on 72 poi's are gone by day 21... then only nomads prevail and you lose one of the Biggest draws people have to the game which is Building and looting nearby! The Simple fix would be to negate the zombie damages(bonuses?) to allow players to Build a sufficient Defense to last an game hour or two during horde night and continue to send wave after wave of zombies til morning.... not make an elaborate AI defeating machine for them to carrosel on... and Not having the Zombies chew through Reinforced Concrete in 6 game mins... @MADMOLE @ROLAND @TWIGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 A little condescending, don't you think? (INSERT MEME HERE) Not at all. I was raised to believe that hard work earns a sense of accomplishment. I think you'll find many people share that same ideology. Some don't feel that way. Doesn't either any better than anyone else nor did I infer that. The question is, why did this comment upset you? Projecting something perhaps? I didn't make any passive aggressive comments like... "Sorry if thinking hard work and earning what you get is a good thing upsets you." I just felt the changes in A17 reflect the overall direction that TFP are going with the game. They seem to want early game to be a harder challenge. Some find that "grindy".... some enjoy it. I think I see which group you fall into. That doesn't make one side better or worse. We just find different things in games fun. Neither is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pahbi Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 If you have to exploit the zombie AI, then something, somewhere needs some tweaking. - P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 I just shack up on the 2nd floor of a sizable poi with walls made of stone or concrete and destroy the stairs. Make a hole in the floor and watch them mill about or attack random parts of the wall, pick them off as I see fit. For later horde nights it's either exploiting the AI with a kill funnel or a stilt base with enough redundant supports. I'm looking forward to new iterations of the A17 AI, but I don't think single player 7dtd will ever require players to be smart beyond knowing the limits of zombie movement/pathfinding. While you may be right, I hope not. I'm really hoping that the new AI in A17 has a lot of potential we just haven't seen yet. Like I said, you may be right.... ... I'm just not ready to make a judgement yet. I'll wait to see what they do between now and Stable and hopefully.... maybe.... possibly... we'll see something good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomdude Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 I was raised to believe that hard work earns a sense of accomplishment. I think you'll find many people share that same ideology. Some don't feel that way. In life, absolutely. In a game, not so much... but to each his own. The question is, why did this comment upset you? Projecting something perhaps? Talk about thin skin... (INSERT ANOTHER MEME HERE) Some find that "grindy".... some enjoy it. I think I see which group you fall into. Grind needs to have a payout... grind just to grind is dumb and bad game design. I believe when I posted the +1 and agreed with OP that my side was implied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Talk about thin skin... (INSERT ANOTHER MEME HERE) I've lived long enough to know when someone's got some personal stuff going on. While I can empathize if you're having a rough day, I think you'll find I won't put up with your nonsense. Take your bad mood elsewhere. You won't make any headway with me. Grind needs to have a payout... grind just to grind is dumb and bad game design. I believe when I posted the +1 and agreed with OP that my side was implied. This is a matter of perspective..... only. You see it as a grind. Others do not. Your opinion is that it isn't rewarding enough. Others do not agree. That's fine, we each see the world in our own way. We don't have to agree. Have a nice day, hope you're feeling better soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomdude Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Have a nice day, hope you're feeling better soon. Don't worry about me my brother... I'm feeling... (INSERT A TONY THE TIGER MEME WITH THE WORD GREAT!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Don't worry about me my brother... I'm feeling... (INSERT A TONY THE TIGER MEME WITH THE WORD GREAT!) More like this maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limdood Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 It's more of a challenge. A simple design that has no real thought put into it made by day 3 .... .... won't cut it anymore. I built a successful horde base in 25 in game minutes....about 2 minutes real time 2 ramps, a 2-high and 1-wide line of wood frames 15 long, and a little room for me to stand in at the end of the path...just 1 tile big...those were the only frames i upgraded so cops wouldn't take potshots until they got on my ramp. No traps, no thick walls, hardly anything beyond unupgraded wooden frames....just a 15-square long, single file approach and a healthy amount of ammo, and ALL the zombie heads in a nice neat line. It was night 14 in B221...i had an SMG and a shotgun...i reached the bottom of the horde by around 1 AM aiming down the SMG at heads with single shots until i needed to reload or enemies got close, then swap to shotgun, clear the path and reload both guns. Single-file bridge defense bases are my go-to in A17, though since then, i usually put a bit more effort in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 I built a successful horde base in 25 in game minutes....about 2 minutes real time 2 ramps, a 2-high and 1-wide line of wood frames 15 long, and a little room for me to stand in at the end of the path...just 1 tile big...those were the only frames i upgraded so cops wouldn't take potshots until they got on my ramp. No traps, no thick walls, hardly anything beyond unupgraded wooden frames....just a 15-square long, single file approach and a healthy amount of ammo, and ALL the zombie heads in a nice neat line. It was night 14 in B221...i had an SMG and a shotgun...i reached the bottom of the horde by around 1 AM aiming down the SMG at heads with single shots until i needed to reload or enemies got close, then swap to shotgun, clear the path and reload both guns. Single-file bridge defense bases are my go-to in A17, though since then, i usually put a bit more effort in. Wow. That's just sad. I guess I could make the comment that I was speaking of NOT cheesing the AI when talking about building but... ... I'm really impressed by your innovative idea. I LOVE beating AI's. Hahaha.... well done sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIREDGUN Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 I built a successful horde base in 25 in game minutes....about 2 minutes real time 2 ramps, a 2-high and 1-wide line of wood frames 15 long, and a little room for me to stand in at the end of the path...just 1 tile big...those were the only frames i upgraded so cops wouldn't take potshots until they got on my ramp. No traps, no thick walls, hardly anything beyond unupgraded wooden frames....just a 15-square long, single file approach and a healthy amount of ammo, and ALL the zombie heads in a nice neat line. It was night 14 in B221...i had an SMG and a shotgun...i reached the bottom of the horde by around 1 AM aiming down the SMG at heads with single shots until i needed to reload or enemies got close, then swap to shotgun, clear the path and reload both guns. Single-file bridge defense bases are my go-to in A17, though since then, i usually put a bit more effort in. "and a healthy amount of ammo" Why even build the 15 block structure...? Stacks of shells and 9mm make everything easy... LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vexingcat Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 It’s a shame that players are forced to exploit the Zombie AI with ramps forcing them into a continual merry-go-round path. With the godlike power of the Zombies block damage, what else are we supposed to do? For me the insane block damage has removed any of the true creative building that I enjoyed in this game. Its all down to a few cookie cutter horde night base ideas, or nothing at all. Ramps, funnels, floating bases, that’s it. Unless you want to spend every moment of the game rebuilding for the next horde night. Do we really need Zombies going through whatever we build, like a hot knife through butter? Where is the fun in that? I have also seen almost everyone leave the server on horde night, or stay and use a big POI, letting it get trashed beyond any us-fullness as future place to loot. With the reduced size of random gen, it wont take a busy server long to lose all the best lootable places. I have seen it first hand, the destruction of POI’s I don’t care that they can jump, dig, zero-in or even that vultures can vomit. What bothers me is the amount and speed of destruction the Zombies do. They are made of flesh and bone, not titanium. I am aware the block damage can be modified in the xml, however it would be great if the game didn’t have such an unreasonable mechanic to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limdood Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Wow. That's just sad. I guess I could make the comment that I was speaking of NOT cheesing the AI when talking about building but... ... I'm really impressed by your innovative idea. I LOVE beating AI's. Hahaha.... well done sir. a defensible funnel approach is the staple of nearly every defensive fortification in history. by making your position only able to be attacked from one direction....you're going to be attacked from that direction. They've just gone from "too dumb to walk to an open door" to "too dumb to break thru a wall when there is a perfectly good, straight path"...except that last one sounds a lot less dumb... "and a healthy amount of ammo" Why even build the 15 block structure...? Stacks of shells and 9mm make everything easy... LOL by "healthy amount of ammo" i meant about 75 shotgun shells and about 250-300 9mm rounds....less than one full stack of ammo...all found, as I couldn't yet craft ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalarro Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 It's more of a challenge. A simple design that has no real thought put into it made by day 3 .... .... won't cut it anymore. Now you really have to be clever and you have to work for it. That's a good thing right? It's exactly the other way around. Before this, you spent days doing a perimeter defense. Now in half a day you can do a pathing defense. Not cool and almost effortless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIREDGUN Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 It's exactly the other way around. Before this, you spent days doing a perimeter defense. Now in half a day you can do a pathing defense. Not cool and almost effortless. Yup, Exactly. Not to mention AI pathing defenses are completely disconnecting the Immersion into the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 It's exactly the other way around. Before this, you spent days doing a perimeter defense. Now in half a day you can do a pathing defense. Not cool and almost effortless. Yeah when I made that comment I wasn't taking into account the pathing defense. You're right on that account. Hopefully when TFP introduce the new RND tweaks to the AI we'll see something more challenging. I don't envy their challenge. Making an AI to fight against Humans seems incredibly difficult in an open environment like 7DTD. In a box with specific rules, sure. Big Blue can kick our *ss*s at Chess. Not so much at 7DTD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIREDGUN Posted December 22, 2018 Author Share Posted December 22, 2018 Making an AI to fight against Humans seems incredibly difficult in an open environment like 7DTD. In a box with specific rules, sure. Big Blue can kick our *ss*s at Chess. Not so much at 7DTD. Yes it's difficult and yes they could make Zombies which kick our butts but then where would the challenge be if they were ALWAYS kicking our butts and we could never win. Part of the winning come with overcoming the challenges. Or why even have building materials if they are nullified against the horde because they FORCED us into pathing defenses instead of a CHOICE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vexingcat Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Chess? Go? The game feels more like Tic-Tac-Toe at the moment. I no longer feel any sense of long-term strategy, I used to have some sense of feeling like a Roman General on the frontier of the Empire. Building proper defenses and defending them, the feeling is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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