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Odetta

Food Spoilage and Its Effect on Game Play A17 and Beyond

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I agree. But I believe that later when we have more important concerns and we shouldn't have to worry about food any longer it will be because we made it happen by crafting the tech that will preserve the food. So right now food can be stored indefinitely in any container as a free benefit. All food spoilage does is make a pathway for the player to follow to create that same basic status-- just not for free.

 

Agreed 110%

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All food spoilage does is make a pathway for the player to follow to create that same basic status-- just not for free.

I don't see it providing any benefit beyond more busywork and additional challenge for the new player, in a game that already has the new player spending too much time looking for a cooking pot and food before even their first day is over. It will probably wind up being a lame new workstation like the Forge, but instead it's a Smoker: stick a bunch of meat in there, turn it on, forget about it until later. Not exciting. Ditto for Canning Station or whatever else they come up with: "fun" for the late-game player to sort; a burden for the new player who doesn't have the perk or equipment.

 

Honestly, if I didn't know what I was doing and A17 was my first experience with the survival mechanics, I would be instantly put off. The game just demands too much from the new player, because the devs has mastered the early game like everyone else, and in an effort to make it challenging they have front-loaded the game with too many requirements. If anything, the new player should start with more food (food that doesn't spoil). Failure to find a cooking pot and/or meat should not result in the player being ruined for stamina on day 2.

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"Busywork?" "too much time looking for a cooking pot?"

 

Otherwise known as gameplay and purpose. Are you one of those who doesn't believe the actual game begins until you are at the top of the progression? I like that I have to search for a pot. I am happiest when I have to boil water in cans for a day or two until I get the pot and can then progress to bottles. I don't see that as an annoyance delaying me from the real game, I see that as the real game. Every part of securing food, water, and shelter is fun for me.

 

Also you sell new players short. The game is already equipped with ways to help new players ease into it if then need to. Turn off zombies, turn down difficulty, etc. Remember that "new players" are most likely by a large majority not new to video games and probably not new to survival games. I'll bet most of them have played with food spoilage in other games and won't be thrown by the mechanic.

 

Finally, even if the way it is implemented is "lame" with a new station that is turn on and forget it will at least be better than the current implementation which is only load food into wooden crate and forget. I mean if loading stuff into a container and forgetting about it is the definition of lame then the game can only get better than currently according to your own description.

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I think a food spoilage system could work. But there's a few things that need to be in place before it's implemented. Timers for items for one. Someone earlier suggested a system with that where it only updated when the container was accessed. Second would be player body temperature affecting food spoilage in inventory. The hotter you are, the hotter it is in your backpack. Means your chocolate's going to melt. Third would be putting food items into classes. Honey and canned food are Class One, they don't spoil. Bread, pies, and boiled meat are Class Two. They turn into items like mouldy bread and rotten meat after a while. Meanwhile items like corn, potatoes, and blueberries are Class Three. They either completely disappear from the inventory when they spoil or are used to make fertilizer via compost. Fourth would be food handling. If you put rotten meat into a container with uncooked meat or something it's going to cause that meat to go bad within minutes.

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... It seems snow doesn't melt in the post apocalyptic future, but I have to strip down to my briefs to step outside.

 

Do you play A17 or A16?

 

With A17 it's the more cloths, the better.

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I think a food spoilage system could work. But there's a few things that need to be in place before it's implemented. Timers for items for one. Someone earlier suggested a system with that where it only updated when the container was accessed. Second would be player body temperature affecting food spoilage in inventory. The hotter you are, the hotter it is in your backpack. Means your chocolate's going to melt. Third would be putting food items into classes. Honey and canned food are Class One, they don't spoil. Bread, pies, and boiled meat are Class Two. They turn into items like mouldy bread and rotten meat after a while. Meanwhile items like corn, potatoes, and blueberries are Class Three. They either completely disappear from the inventory when they spoil or are used to make fertilizer via compost. Fourth would be food handling. If you put rotten meat into a container with uncooked meat or something it's going to cause that meat to go bad within minutes.

 

Most of the things you just described is already in a mod called starvation mod. Most of the food spoils there and any spoiled food except for spoiled drinks can be turned into fertilizer. To prevent spoilage you either hook up a fridge or use an icebox (container with snow).

 

I don't like the idea of body temperature affecting food spoilage. Stick to environment temperature and time combination, like in real life.

 

"If you put rotten meat into a container with uncooked meat or something it's going to cause that meat to go bad within minutes."

Umm a big NO on this. What the heck is this?

 

I agree that they should add in spoilage and other (food-related) things later when the main features of a17 are done and mostly bugfree. Perhaps have some kind of food/animal update later on. I would like more animals if possible and separate the meats into categories like beef, pork, venison, poultry, etc. Wouldn't it be cool to see steak, pork chops, chicken wings, bbq chicken, or something like madmole's supreme dinner (32 oz tomahawk ribeye steak with chicken wings, mashed potatoes, corn on the cob and beer) on the menu? Would also like a ton more food recipes and more types of plants to grow. Again, look at starvation mod for ideas.

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Most of the things you just described is already in a mod called starvation mod. Most of the food spoils there and any spoiled food except for spoiled drinks can be turned into fertilizer. To prevent spoilage you either hook up a fridge or use an icebox (container with snow).

 

...

 

"If you put rotten meat into a container with uncooked meat or something it's going to cause that meat to go bad within minutes."

Umm a big NO on this. What the heck is this?

 

I haven't played with any of the mods, so I didn't know about how Starvation handles it. As for my reasoning behind spoiled food spoiling other food... It would be a pain to implement a large number of different states like a mouldy state, or maggot infested, or whatever else. Streamlining it so that spoiled food spoils other food makes it so that you need to be careful and store your food with consideration. In real life you don't want to leave chicken out on the counter for hours and then put it back in a package with fresh chicken for example.

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I haven't played with any of the mods, so I didn't know about how Starvation handles it. As for my reasoning behind spoiled food spoiling other food... It would be a pain to implement a large number of different states like a mouldy state, or maggot infested, or whatever else. Streamlining it so that spoiled food spoils other food makes it so that you need to be careful and store your food with consideration. In real life you don't want to leave chicken out on the counter for hours and then put it back in a package with fresh chicken for example.

 

Yes I understand that rotten food can contaminate other food if they touch. What I don't like is the duration you proposed. Within minutes is really unrealistic - you have to include time as a factor. Plus you never took into account the environment. If you place rotten food in a freezer next to fresh (frozen) meat, the cold will put the bacteria in a dormant state and the fresh (frozen) meat would not become rotten. Change the container to a fridge and it would still take some time for that fresh food to rot. Another factor is that the containers are X by Y in size. People would raise torches and pitchforks if rotten food turned fresh food rotten even if they were placed far away from each other in the same container. Ignoring item placement, even if you implement this feature as you suggested, your entire container would become full of rotten food if any one of the food suddenly turns rotten while in the container. Finally, imagine having to write code for all this - gives me a headache just thinking about it.

 

It's an idea but would need lots of votes (to put it in) and lots of good feedback to keep it in-game.

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Even The Forest has a very rudimentary food spoilage system. Very simplistic. It's not a bad thing.

 

(FYI: those that play The Forest, if you have dried meat on your rack that turned black and would only give you roughly a 30% fill, just pick it up and put it in your inventory. It makes it so it's just normal dried meat again lol. Atleast it used to be that way unless the new patch corrected that.)

 

Meat is stupidly easy to get in the Forest.

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It's an idea but would need lots of votes (to put it in) and lots of good feedback to keep it in-game.

 

Just one vote actually....Joel's.

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Meat is stupidly easy to get in the Forest.

 

Never implied it wasn't lol. Just stating that food spoilage is a very common feature and there are plenty of different ways to introduce it.

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This is like every other maintenance routine in the game. Those who actually like survival games will find it a fun mechanic and enjoy it for the added challenge, those who do not like survival games but still want to play this game will call it a grind and monotonous and will hate it claiming "it doesn't really add any challenge. It's just boring."

 

I agree and disagree with you here Roland, you can like survival games but not enjoy a food spoilage mechanic if the food spoilage timers are not very well balanced, with as (yes im going to say it ) Tedious as farming has been made now (no longer action button to pick up crops, now you have to harvest via left click and waste stamina lol )

 

That will never be properly balanced for online servers if it works the same way servers work now, you make food, log off, log back in and your food has spoiled unless you can greatly preserve them.

 

Food spoilage makes the early game a daily struggle and the development of preservation tech a milestone in the game that is rewarding.

 

Stamina is a bigger issue (run 5 seconds rest 5 seconds run 5 seconds ), and preservation isn't a milestone, its a mandatory need, you can't really call it rewarding when its a mechanic that is rather forced on the player as those that try to circumvent will more than struggle, right now too many techs are needed just so you can explore, much less feel like you're a rat trapped in a cage.

 

Eventually you do want to reach a point when food and water are not an issue but you want that point achieved by the player's actions

 

I've killed 300 zombies, now I'm a trained chef from all that KILLING EXP. This makes no sense. I get it by farming zed and putting points into a skill to unlock it; that's not immersive, its a grind.

 

There is way more to a survival game than thrusting unrealistic expectation on the player with trivial food spoilage system then advocating "If you don't like it then you don't like survival games" , lately (for the past 3 or so years) TFP have gone this trend where the idea to challenge the player is basically to cripple the player all while buffing zeds.

 

"If you don't like it then you don't like survival games"

I disagree. Don't starve has food spoilage but I couldn't get enough of that game, why, because food was much easier to manipulate in that game.

 

It just depends on how its implemented is all. I'm for it, if its done well, im against it if you do it anything like your temperature system.

 

Pssssttt... the players aren't dying on the 7th day..what do we do?

 

Lets take away everything and make zeds stronger.

 

I shouldn't need 10 different perks just to play the game normally.

 

Before anyone starts to troll, I have no problems playing the game on any mode and thriving right now. Save your assumptions.

 

Nothing about this game has really changed, simply more is taken from the player with every passing update.

 

Give me a challenge through challenge, not artificial difficulty by gimping the player.

 

I want to play the game, not be stuck in a work routine. Exploration is a huge part of that, but instead when I open a bag, 7 zeds spawn out of thin air and drop ontop of me. :s

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Everything you just said is wrong.

 

1) The game has always needed food spoilage because of the dynamics it creates in the progression of your character. It creates a whole additional progression line to follow from early game to late game. It makes you focus on frequent food gathering in the beginning which eats time away from preparing in other ways. It also provides new objectives as players seek to solve the problem of storage and preservation so that they can then focus their time on other activities. This process is a lot of fun for those who enjoy survival games (of which entropy is a staple).

 

2) We guys have had repeated conversations about food spoilage for years. This is not the first conversation on this topic. Its not even just the 20th. This has come up repeatedly long before A17 or A16 or even A15.

 

3) The design around food and stamina and water is pure genius, in my opinion. It is new and requires balancing but food itself is already more complex than it was in A16. As of now there is a buff associated with food that can increase your chance for food poisoning. There are recipes that can give other benefits not present in A16 and you can overeat to keep your stamina bar pasted to the top for quite awhile which was also not possible in A16. Eating a meat stew at 90% fullness will keep you full for a nice while.

 

4) Not eveyone likes every feature or mechanic and I see you would probably label food spoilage as grindy, unfun, micromanaging, etc. BUT- there are plenty of people who do find such mechanics fun and natural as part of a survival genre game as evidenced by the fact that most every other survival game out there besides this one already has such a mechanic. Madmole has said in the past he is open to it so as always we will all talk about it until such time it happens and then we all will rage at the next level based on its implementation.

 

5) Food spoilage will necessitate an entirely new level of gameplay; farming. Not everyone farms, because it's not necessary, but for true, long term end-game play, farming will be important.

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"Busywork?" "too much time looking for a cooking pot?"

 

Otherwise known as gameplay and purpose. Are you one of those who doesn't believe the actual game begins until you are at the top of the progression? I like that I have to search for a pot. I am happiest when I have to boil water in cans for a day or two until I get the pot and can then progress to bottles. I don't see that as an annoyance delaying me from the real game, I see that as the real game. Every part of securing food, water, and shelter is fun for me.

 

Also you sell new players short. The game is already equipped with ways to help new players ease into it if then need to. Turn off zombies, turn down difficulty, etc. Remember that "new players" are most likely by a large majority not new to video games and probably not new to survival games. I'll bet most of them have played with food spoilage in other games and won't be thrown by the mechanic.

 

Finally, even if the way it is implemented is "lame" with a new station that is turn on and forget it will at least be better than the current implementation which is only load food into wooden crate and forget. I mean if loading stuff into a container and forgetting about it is the definition of lame then the game can only get better than currently according to your own description.

 

I wonder, Roland, if having a tutorial game wouldn't end a lot of the debate about new players.

 

Maybe a very very small map.

A walk though questline that is designed to teach even the dumbest person on the planet how to play.

It could be on the easiest difficulty level and everything can be nerfed and bubble wrapped.

 

That might end a lot of this moaning about new players.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

5) Food spoilage will necessitate an entirely new level of gameplay; farming. Not everyone farms, because it's not necessary, but for true, long term end-game play, farming will be important.

 

Here we go.

 

pvWzLDt.gif

 

Harvest [blood] Moon time.

 

I'm kidding, I actually like the farming aspect of the game.

I'm also hoping it inspires TFP to give us Colonies one day.

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Just one vote actually....Joel's.

 

I'm sure you'll persuade him, using maths and such.

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Oh bull♥♥♥♥, A16 was all about mass producing and choking down as much cornbread, goldenrod tea and painkillers as you possibly could to max your wellness, and then you lived on baked potato and plain water unless you had a wellness drop.

 

Alternately not caring about wellness at all and using suicide as a teleportation mechanic (see A17 death debuff discussions)

 

Only idiots did that, I stood in water and wore clothing to make me freeze then ate meat stew, much more efficient.

 

Death debuff is an amazing mechanic, I absolutely must props TFP for implementing it. Death should have always come with a major penalty for it; I still ate meat stew and drank tea (for coolness buff because I was either always too damn hot, or always too damn cold, it was annoying to always have to switch between jacket and poncho.

 

Meat stew was great, I only had to carry 1 or 2 per scavenge run, and if I needed to free up an invi slot it was down the hatch and I was overfilled for hunger till I needed anything to eat, and even if I did, I would be able to find something to eat before it would have ever become a problem.

 

I didn't want to pop a bandage or a first aid kit either, so eating the stew for the healing was great as well.

 

5) Food spoilage will necessitate an entirely new level of gameplay; farming. Not everyone farms, because it's not necessary, but for true, long term end-game play, farming will be important.

 

 

I 100% agree with you here!

 

I 200% agree with you here!

But only if food spoilage is done correctly.

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Hey, spoilage will require a push for better farming, which will require a push for npc's hired to tend the crops. Just saying. =)

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Just one vote actually....Joel's.

 

I understand that Joel might have the final say in things but everyone else (developers, testers, etc) don't have a say at all?

You as a team don't discuss advantages, disadvantages, how long it will take, what the public may or may not want from feedback, etc?

 

I'm sure it's not a simple as calling it a dictatorship but you make it sound that way...

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I understand that Joel might have the final say in things but everyone else (developers, testers, etc) don't have a say at all?

You as a team don't discuss advantages, disadvantages, how long it will take, what the public may or may not want from feedback, etc?

 

I'm sure it's not a simple as calling it a dictatorship but you make it sound that way...

 

Muscle mass. Its as simple as muscle mass.

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In other words its run like a dictatorship?

 

Or are you his prisoners, all locked up in prison cells and forced to work around the clock for a game he only envisions and you're trying to give subtle hints about your location? XD

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With the new way in which food governs our stamina cap it seems that balancing food/stamina drain is nigh impossible.

 

It's either gonna be swayed towards the late game or the very early game.

 

- Balanced for late game = terrible early game (b231)

 

- Balanced for early game = trivial/non existent late game

 

I used to be against adding food spoilage but I think the time is right for it to be incorporated. In my eye I see it like this:

 

- Early game with no Chef Perk = No way to preserve food, so finding canned goods and eating fresh are the name of the game.

 

- Late game with Chef Perks = You can preserve food now; canning, smoking, drying, fermenting and maybe refrigeration to preserve fresh food a lot longer. Preserved food will have a severe nutrition penalty and chance to get you sick but do not spoil. So there is a trade off and food always remains an issue to your survival, as it should be.

 

Even with a farm, the amount of mats needed coupled with the negative aspects of preserving and you'll always be worried about food. Example 100 blueberries for a jar of preserves with chance to get you sick and only a 15 stamina rating but lasts forever. So when you can you always eat fresh but can stockpile late game to take some of the pressure off.

 

Lets discuss some of the pros and cons for food spoilage. I could not have a clue so shed some light.

 

food needs some balancing, but it should not be an issue late game. Maybe some new recipes, for late game, but no way it should be an issue. Late game you need to loot for braas, guns, etc, not for food.

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