So why are Hunting Knife/Machete weaker than wood club/iron reinforced?

[Jugginator]

Zvex you're stuck on sledge hammers replacing pick axe and fire axes. They do NOT work on breaking blocks. And... damage is about balance.. and you keep saying hammer, that's the sledge hammer. And you're still missing the point where you can HARVEST with a machete. You cannot harvest with a barbed club. It doesn't work. If you want the machete even dps, then remove the harvesting ability. In fact, machete has MORE speed than clubs. Less stamina use too Im sure.

 

SLedge hammers:

Pros: Massive damage and knock back

Cons: Massive stamina use, damage vs blocks (safes,doors included) not worth the speed nor stamina. A stone axe is more effective

 

Machete:

Pros: Can harvest animals, gore blocks. Fast and nimble, far less stamina use. Upgrading with serated blade increases bleeding chance

Cons: Same thing with blocks on sledges, low damage. But, less stamina and faster. Little less damage than sledge

 

So, you pay a slightly less damage for MORE SPEED (more speed = more damage per second) and LESS stamina use and HARVESTING, plus bleeding. If machete EQUALS sledge in damage, you would be stupid to use a sledge unless you didn't have a machete. If every gun did the same damage, then why would you use anything but an SMG? If all armor was equal, why use anything but cloth? If all bows were equal, may as well use the wooden bow.

[Zvex]

Zvex you're stuck on sledge hammers replacing pick axe and fire axes.

no they dont, because they are not the harvesting tool

 

They do NOT work on breaking blocks.

Any arguments on that? Try first, then talk. I made plenty of arguments and you have just ignored them:

In previous versions there was a perk for breaking the blocks for sledgehammer. It was very logical but many people saw it as overkill - a special perk for 1 function, the suggestion was accepted - the perk was joined with 69. However, the huge damage to blocks by a sledgehammer remains - it was done intentionally and was commented so by developers in these forums (you should feel how wrong you are now). Devs wanted for sledgehammer to be a multipurpose tool.

 

However, over a year ago when the block breaking was buffed for a sledgehammer, devs decided to make it exclusively block breaking, to cut its universality - so the harvesting was turned off for that tool, because people would sometimes use it to chop trees.

 

I break safes with my sledgehammer. It takes around 30% more time than a pickaxe, not a big deal. You cannot harvest with hammer - as I have stated before. Especially after I found a wood and iron damage mods for it, its fast.

 

 

And... damage is about balance..

the balance is not about the damage - thats what I said. Currently the DPS of sledgehammers and machetes are currently the same. And with speed perk machetes, perhaps, do even more damage. Even if sledgehammers make a bit more DPS it is compensated by the waste of damage of overkills.

 

and you keep saying hammer, that's the sledge hammer. And you're still missing the point where you can HARVEST with a machete. You cannot harvest with a barbed club. It doesn't work. If you want the machete even dps, then remove the harvesting ability.

It was so for few years. Pros for sledge as a tool - breaks blocks. Pros for machete - harvest animals. The bad thing for hammer is that sledgehammer is not the best block breaking tool, the machete - is the best. The good thing is that sledgehammer stands for two tools, keeping an extra space slot.

 

So there is an intended (by devs, its not my ideas) balance. If the secondary abilities are not balanced enough - we should discuss it and ask some opinions. As for me, pros for sledge is enough for it to be in my belt constantly.

 

SLedge hammers:

Pros: Massive damage and knock back

Cons: Massive stamina use, damage vs blocks (safes,doors included) not worth the speed nor stamina. A stone axe is more effective

 

Machete:

Pros: Can harvest animals, gore blocks. Fast and nimble, far less stamina use. Upgrading with serated blade increases bleeding chance

Cons: Same thing with blocks on sledges, low damage. But, less stamina and faster. Little less damage than sledge

 

You missed the whole point. Did you read my posts? Where is bleed from perk and dismemberment? The "main features" of bladed weapons.

 

As for damage for blocks - do not mess different type of functionalities in one comparisson. If the sledgehammer damage for blocks is small - I think it should be increased then and we should discuss this then. It would be interesting to hear opinion of devs on this topic.

 

SH:

pros:

1) range (2.9 is alot),

2) bigger damage per hit lets you to stagger opponents easier, also an extremely important buff for stealth (killed with it around 1000 zeds in A17 already).

3) knock down from perks (with perks even AOE), a very good, defensive gamechanging ability

cons: 1) attack is slow, meaning it hurts to miss the hit both for timing and stamina (the usage of stamina per second is roughly the same as for machete.

 

M:

pros:

1) speed (see cons of SH)

2) the dismemberment from perks - a nice stuff, havent figured out its effictiveness though

3) bleed (with perks even AOE)

cons: 1) range, also with small damage I had troubles to stagger radioactive zombies - but this may be subjective though, ahvent done any measurements on that.

 

Everything looks balanced but the cons 3 are obviously not. The knock down is great, the bleeding - is not, decapitating chances are small also. I understand that knock down means defensive and bleeding - offensive. But even with 3 bleeding debufs it is only 3 damage per second, and during the late game it means nothing.

 

Moreover, during the last 221 patch they added additional damage to stunned targets for both blade and blunt weapons. When I saw that first my thoughts were "is that a joke?", because the blade weapons do not stun the target, how the hell it is opposed to get this new bonus, which is written in perk?

[RyanX]

With A17, I'm not sure why everyone doesn't just run around with the fireaxe/pickaxe combo. Melee, block, harvesting can all be done with the fireaxe, break out the pickaxe for metal blocks (i.e. doors/safes) and ore. The fireaxe replaces both clubs AND machetes. I did try the sledge for a while and I do like it, but I'm always torn between sledge/knife(or machete) or axe/pick. I've been doing more axe/pick lately due to saving inventory space by having them double as harvesting tools. TBH my wife even enjoys using the pickaxe as a melee weapon (effectively), although that was b208 and she hasn't messed with b221 yet.

 

Of course, what you find in the early game matters...so maybe all you have is a club and a bone shiv....but given the choice...

[Zvex]

Hm, that is an interesting point ... both are bladed weapons now, by the way, I heard the fireaxe is not that bad for fight? Haven't tried it recently at all.

[RyanX]

Hm, that is an interesting point ... both are bladed weapons now, by the way, I heard the fireaxe is not that bad for fight? Haven't tried it recently at all.

 

Works well. Works well harvesting animals and gore blocks too. I could see a potential nerf for it in the future, but for now I love it.

[Jedo]

I’m sure it all needs to be balanced, but I want to point out clearly what might have been muddled in others’ posts: Straight damage (and even multifunction) are not the only considerations. Stamina use and swing speed also matter. If TFP really is going to give tough decisions here, each weapon needs to be a little different with regards to these attributes.

[LuckyStar]

I’m sure it all needs to be balanced, but I want to point out clearly what might have been muddled in others’ posts: Straight damage (and even multifunction) are not the only considerations. Stamina use and swing speed also matter. If TFP really is going to give tough decisions here, each weapon needs to be a little different with regards to these attributes.

 

Yeah I like this.

 

Machete should have less stamina usage.

 

I used a machete last summer to get at some Blackberry bushes.

 

Once I got the hang of it, I was pleasantly surprised at how very little energy it took to use it.

It basically does the work for you.

 

Who knows.... maybe a little balancing in the way you suggest would accentuate the differences even more.

Yeah I like that idea.

[beHypE]

I still think they need to add special effects to weapons.

 

Machete in A16 was amazing for it's instant decapitation value. It was definitely OP but it could have simply used a little bit of tweaking and balancing. Now, you need to actually invest in perks that give you 15% decapitation tops at max level (which is... gated by level 100).

 

Sledgehammers could have something like a base crushing percentage, that would either cripple a zombie or just flat out explode its head. Or maybe disorient them, making them attack their foes for 5 seconds or something.

 

I've actually found a machete today on day 2 of my new playthrough, and as you stated, my iron reinforced club just does the job better for cheaper repair costs. It's sad that even when you're blessed by the loot tables' RNG, it's still worse than what you can reliably possess on day 1. And even if I did spend points in cutting blades, it would only provide a 5% chance of decapitation (because I'm not even close to having the level req for a higher perk level), which quite frankly speaking isn't worth the trouble until the time comes were I can craft my own high level Machete.

[pregnable]

With A17, I'm not sure why everyone doesn't just run around with the fireaxe/pickaxe combo.

 

Yeah, the fireaxe was my main weapon and I can harvest animals with it. It would kill almost as well as the sledge if you are getting headshots.

 

I think they buffed sledge damage a little though, but whatever.

[SickPuppy]

Pre a17 I used to kill everything with blades. But now on always run with the more erratic zombie pathing I'm getting hit a lot more with blades. Plus the short range makes it very dangerous to use, I guess it makes it more realistic. Early game I have to rely on the environment or build platforms to kill safely. Late game with more perks, bleed still felt slower to kill compared to blunt. Although the small percentage decap does help and is noticeable.

 

B208 played with clubs and it felt easier, on always run more hit range on yr weapon and being able to stagger zombie makes it so much easier compared to a bleeding zombie still running at u.

 

B221 I switched to sledge and the larger hit range is so noticeable, knockdown/stagger removes the running threat and kills quickly. I don't have to rely on environment or build any extra killing platforms, even lets me roam around at night with mining helmet in confidence. The slower swing actually helps me time the hit better, but it becomes an issue inside poi's. Miss a swing with a few running at u it gets messy very quickly, I guess this is where the blades might excel later on with maxed perks but atm blunt feels way safer/easier.

[LuckyStar]

I still think they need to add special effects to weapons.

 

Heck yeah!!!

 

Dead Island style.

 

I actually modded in a few of these in A16.

Fire and/or electricity machete's and crossbows.

 

Nothing that was unbalancing either, they just looked cool and were really fun to have.

The materials needed for them were dropped by Bosses only which were stupidly hard to kill.

 

Loved it!

 

Probably do that again.

[Scyris]

That is TV. That would be a horrible weapon for zombies really. It is certainly not a utility blade by any sense. That will require a crap ton of edge maintenance and will eventually fail after prolonged use.

 

If I was in a zombie apoc the first thing i'd be looking to get my hands on is a spear of some kind, and then something for very close range. Going for a club or a knife thats puts you in arms reach of a zombie wouldn't be a smart move imo.

[Scyris]

I still think they need to add special effects to weapons.

 

Machete in A16 was amazing for it's instant decapitation value. It was definitely OP but it could have simply used a little bit of tweaking and balancing. Now, you need to actually invest in perks that give you 15% decapitation tops at max level (which is... gated by level 100).

 

Sledgehammers could have something like a base crushing percentage, that would either cripple a zombie or just flat out explode its head. Or maybe disorient them, making them attack their foes for 5 seconds or something.

 

I've actually found a machete today on day 2 of my new playthrough, and as you stated, my iron reinforced club just does the job better for cheaper repair costs. It's sad that even when you're blessed by the loot tables' RNG, it's still worse than what you can reliably possess on day 1. And even if I did spend points in cutting blades, it would only provide a 5% chance of decapitation (because I'm not even close to having the level req for a higher perk level), which quite frankly speaking isn't worth the trouble until the time comes were I can craft my own high level Machete.

 

This is exactly what my issue with them is, why is something you can craft the second you spawn in the world, stronger and more efficent at killing stuff, than items locked behind lv 20 and 60 perks. Not to mention scrap iron is everywhere, you can't always get forged iron/steel on day 1 to repair anything, but scrap iron? You can for sure.

 

People argue dps but you have to rememeber: you have to aim for the head, its much more reliable to kill a zombie in 1-2 sledgehammer hits, than 4-6 hits with a machete just because its overall faster due to time needed to aim those 4-6 machete hits.

 

My char is lv 23, 4 str, 0 in head crusher, and 2 mods in my sledge, and I 1 shot female zombies now with a normal headshot attack on nomad. 2 shot male ones, and 3 shot fatties. On males/female fatty, first hit knocksdown, as it did half their health. The fat tourists takes 2 head shots to knock down as does the biker dude. If I was using a machete, it does around 1/3rd what the sledge does. Bleed damage is also pretty weak, You can stack it 3 times, but in the time it'd take you to stack it that much the sledge hammer would have killed 3 zombies to the machetes 1.

 

Its just very inefficent to use the hunting knife/machete as a weapon in this build. Not when the iron reinforced club hits harder and is avail from day 1 and much easier/cheaper to repair. To add insult to injury, the bone shiv actually has higher base damage than the hunting knife.. figure that one out, I know it can't be modded but still I found it amusing how its a better weapon on day 1 than a iron hunting knife.

[Scyris]

Pre a17 I used to kill everything with blades. But now on always run with the more erratic zombie pathing I'm getting hit a lot more with blades. Plus the short range makes it very dangerous to use, I guess it makes it more realistic. Early game I have to rely on the environment or build platforms to kill safely. Late game with more perks, bleed still felt slower to kill compared to blunt. Although the small percentage decap does help and is noticeable.

 

B208 played with clubs and it felt easier, on always run more hit range on yr weapon and being able to stagger zombie makes it so much easier compared to a bleeding zombie still running at u.

 

B221 I switched to sledge and the larger hit range is so noticeable, knockdown/stagger removes the running threat and kills quickly. I don't have to rely on environment or build any extra killing platforms, even lets me roam around at night with mining helmet in confidence. The slower swing actually helps me time the hit better, but it becomes an issue inside poi's. Miss a swing with a few running at u it gets messy very quickly, I guess this is where the blades might excel later on with maxed perks but atm blunt feels way safer/easier.

 

Naw, you'd be screwed even worse since it takes many more headshots per zombie to kill them, and machete doesn't knock down like a fireaxe/blunt does. The knockdown on sledge, even without the perk can be a life saver. Knock down the 2 eaiser zombies so you get some breathing room. They kinda destroyed power attacks in b221 though imo, they use up way to much stamina now (Base power atk for sledge uses like 80 stam or something) and also prevents you from regening stamina for a few seconds if you hit anything. I bascally rarely ever use power attacks anymore in b221 they just aren't worth it now.

[LuckyStar]

If I was in a zombie apoc the first thing i'd be ...

 

If I was in a zombie Apocalypse the first thing I'd be doing is check to see what my drink was spiked with because clearly I'm high!

 

Then I'd probably want some food.

[Jugginator]

Well, Scyris you have a point there in the sledge taking less hits to kill, but don't forget that until you have high stamina and very high Sexy-T, you're not hitting and running like you would with a machete. Case in point in a melee build I did, I fell through the floor in a heaaaaavily infested POI on Warrior, and I had to dodge in and out of zombies because I was just overwhelmed (I literally counted 25-30 range in a tight house..). My sledge is what got me killed in that house, because I only had enough stamina for two power swings max and I couldnt do a damn thing for a few seconds. If I had a machete, maybe I would have gotten killed too, but I would have been able to make two quick head slices and have enough stamina to sprint to the other side to saftey to get more room to attack without getting attacked. I would have died either way, I am sure, but I would have had more of a fighting chance with the machete. Plus, hitting and running lets the bleeding debuff tick some HP off with the generated distance. SHould it decapitate at a higher chance? Sure. But damage per swing shouldn't be equal.

[Zvex]

Well, Scyris you have a point there in the sledge taking less hits to kill, but don't forget that until you have high stamina and very high Sexy-T, you're not hitting and running like you would with a machete.

 

Where did you get that? The stamina usage per damage is almost the same. Right now I am watching on my these tools (both fully modded), it says 105 damage for 11 stamina for the machete and 220 damage for 25 stamina for the sledgehammer. Meaning 1.05 stamina per 10 damage for machete and 1.14 for hammer. The difference is negligible. When you run and hit you don't give the full damage output, it is all bout timing, so only damage per stamina is important.

 

And don't forget about the great running nerf in A17 - you can't run backwards effectively now. So the hammer became much better for that - you run and turn back just before the hit - I tried that a lot and running and hitting now is much better with slow weapons.

 

Stop dropping your info here without actually knowing these things. And for anyone: you can't discuss something you haven't tried in survival as your temporary tactic. I tried melee a lot and killed hundreds of zeds using sledgehammers and machetes in A17.

 

As for power swings - it is not a valid tactic anymore. You should carefully choose when you use one, because it stops the stamina regeneration entirely for few seconds. This is what got you killed in your described situation.

[SickPuppy]

After the tough start getting used to a17 stamina I found SexT is way more important than Agility+Cardio.

 

Latest map Insane nightmare run (sledge character) I didn't put points into agility or cardio (150hp), we can still outrun zombies in seconds, power attack only when u know it's a safe kill, stats:

 

Day21 L44 GS160 K381 D0

 

100 stamina is perfectly viable so far, the big drainer is jumping in tight poi's. Using ramps fixes that and u can kite a group of zombies around a house all day.

[Scyris]

After the tough start getting used to a17 stamina I found SexT is way more important than Agility+Cardio.

 

Latest map Insane nightmare run (sledge character) I didn't put points into agility or cardio (150hp), we can still outrun zombies in seconds, power attack only when u know it's a safe kill, stats:

 

Day21 L44 GS160 K381 D0

 

100 stamina is perfectly viable so far, the big drainer is jumping in tight poi's. Using ramps fixes that and u can kite a group of zombies around a house all day.

 

This is why I said they need to add a side benefit to specing in agility. Str is melee/block dmg, perception is ranged dmg/accuarcy, but the other 3 stats just do 1 single thing. For Agility they could give 2% more move speed per point for 18% like with agility, or even 1% per level till the final point which is 2% move speed for 10% total. Int used to have a exp bonus as a secondary but its commented out currently. As for endurance maybe 1% dmg taken reduction per stat point, with again the 10th point adding 2% for a total of 10%.

 

I myself virtually never spend points in perception, there is even less reason to in b221 as the base headshot multi is now double damage. Before you'd have needed 2 points in the headshot skill and 2 into perception to get that. That said, comp bow with 1 mod in it and stealth headshot lets me 1 shot female zombies and 2 shot males with iron arrows. This is on nomad for now, I just have higher priorities of skills I need to get, I consider perception a dump tree, which means I'll only really bother with anything in it once I have spare points, might get 1 point in the headshot skill earlier though just because.

 

Guns make too much noise, and even with a silencer some guns still make so much noise they wake the entire poi in 1 shot (shotgun), arrows are plentiful and recoverable, so I don't mind taking an extra shot to kill things to save skill points. Even if I was to go into perception. most of the skills in there are.. to be frank worthless, only ones I'd really bother with is the headshot one, and run and gun, the rest just aren't worth it. Max luckly looter lets you loot fast, and has a chance to let you get better loot, but its still all rng, you'd have the highest chance of good loot, but you still could get nothing but tier 1 junk 99% of the time. Whole perception skill tree kinda needs a overhaul, as does agility.

[LuckyStar]

This is why I said they need to add a side benefit to specing in agility. Str is melee/block dmg, perception is ranged dmg/accuarcy, but the other 3 stats just do 1 single thing. For Agility they could give 2% more move speed per point for 18% like with agility, or even 1% per level till the final point which is 2% move speed for 10% total. Int used to have a exp bonus as a secondary but its commented out currently. As for endurance maybe 1% dmg taken reduction per stat point, with again the 10th point adding 2% for a total of 10%.

 

I myself virtually never spend points in perception, there is even less reason to in b221 as the base headshot multi is now double damage. Before you'd have needed 2 points in the headshot skill and 2 into perception to get that. That said, comp bow with 1 mod in it and stealth headshot lets me 1 shot female zombies and 2 shot males with iron arrows. This is on nomad for now, I just have higher priorities of skills I need to get, I consider perception a dump tree, which means I'll only really bother with anything in it once I have spare points, might get 1 point in the headshot skill earlier though just because.

 

Guns make too much noise, and even with a silencer some guns still make so much noise they wake the entire poi in 1 shot (shotgun), arrows are plentiful and recoverable, so I don't mind taking an extra shot to kill things to save skill points. Even if I was to go into perception. most of the skills in there are.. to be frank worthless, only ones I'd really bother with is the headshot one, and run and gun, the rest just aren't worth it. Max luckly looter lets you loot fast, and has a chance to let you get better loot, but its still all rng, you'd have the highest chance of good loot, but you still could get nothing but tier 1 junk 99% of the time. Whole perception skill tree kinda needs a overhaul, as does agility.

 

Yeah you point out some glaring balancing issues.

 

What I also see is potential.

 

A few tweaks and all this could be turned into a positive.

[Crossing my fingers for the next update.]