B221 gated steel is ridiculous and unnecessary

[Limdood]

For those who haven't noticed yet, the crucible and forged steel itself is now gated behind the steel tools and weapons perk (Hammer and Forge rank 3) available at level 60.

 

Previously, in B208, crafting steel tools and weapons, including steel arrows and bolts (but NOT including wrench) were gated to level 60 (Hammer and Forge rank 3), but the crucible forged steel were able to be crafted without any gate (though you did require forged iron, mechanical parts, a workbench, and a buttload of stone & dirt, each of which were their own kind of gate)

 

Back in 208, that meant you could make a new wrench (helpful, since wrenches did very little "damage" and degraded quickly due to the number of "swings" objects took to break), you could forge steel to repair those awesome, low quality found steel tools you were super duper lucky enough to loot or receive from quests or trading, and you could upgrade concrete before level 60.

 

Those were the obvious benefits.

 

Several other benefits of the old system are only now being found by frustrated players all over...

 

Did you know all mod recipes require steel? Of course you did, you've probably built loads in B208 and earlier games. Mods start being craftable at level 40 (and you can craft nearly all of them by level 60)...BUUUT, not anymore!

 

Sure, you can still unlock the mod recipes at level 40, by taking Yeah! science rank 1...but forget about crafting those mods on your own. You can't make the steel to do it.

 

How about those nifty advanced arrows and bolts? super cool huh? Yeah, i know the materials (bones & fat) are not in the greatest supply, but hey, you could get some of them at least, for situational use. And whats even better, you can make them at level 50! Oops, wait, nevermind. You can't make the steel ammunition required to craft them until level....60? Really? let me get this straight...i can craft stone arrows at level 1, iron arrows at level 1, steel arrows now at level 60, but...the MORE advanced flaming arrows can be crafted at 50?

 

This isn't even including the massive troll that was the patch notes saying that crafting steel arrows is no longer gated by a perk. Technically correct, but saying that, and then hiding the prerequisites behind a perk was misleading in the extreme.

 

Yes, I know, you CAN buy forged steel from the traders. Ditto for steel arrowheads and arrows, but the sheer backwards-ness of the steel and steel-related perks is incredibly counterintuitive and frustrating.

 

TFP, you want steel tools and weapons gated behind level 60? fine. It wasn't ideal, but it's a design choice that makes sense given the way the game is set up. But that already existed in B208. The decision to gate the crucible and forged steel has broken or made near-useless several other perks and benefits specifically offered by the game prior to level 60's steel gate. The change should be reverted, and if there is a specific problem that needed to be addressed, that this change was suppose to fix, a more specific solution should be implemented, as this blanket change negatively affected too many other aspects of the game, that are clearly intended to be available before the level 60 steel gate.

[PoppaTot]

Are you certain that the crucible is locked behind Hammer and Forge rank 3, or is just locked behind the workbench?

 

Honest question.

[Viktoriusiii]

This is what they intended to have from the beginning.

 

And I feel like steel is such a MAJOR lategame item, that it shouldn't be available from the start (maybe dont make the crucible craftable and only appears in traders stashes after they have specked into 4trader perks)

 

I'm a major opponent of levelgating.

But steel has to be gated SOMEHOW.

Not only did I find 6 wrenches in my first week, but also steel blocks should be endgame blocks.

 

EVEN THOUGH IN THE CURRENT VERSION THEY SIMPLY BREAK EVERYTHING OUT OF STONE IN MERE SECONDS!!!

[PoppaTot]

This is what they intended to have from the beginning.

 

And I feel like steel is such a MAJOR lategame item, that it shouldn't be available from the start (maybe dont make the crucible craftable and only appears in traders stashes after they have specked into 4trader perks)

 

I'm a major opponent of levelgating.

But steel has to be gated SOMEHOW.

Not only did I find 6 wrenches in my first week, but also steel blocks should be endgame blocks.

 

EVEN THOUGH IN THE CURRENT VERSION THEY SIMPLY BREAK EVERYTHING OUT OF STONE IN MERE SECONDS!!!

 

I liked crafting early steel for repairs to items I found, couldn't craft the items yet myself. Haven't seen a need to upgrade blocks to steel, would be a waste of resources at this point. Concrete is good enough for AI pathing purposes imo.

[Ghostlight]

They know they need to extend the length of a play-through otherwise it is over on day 30. This is a cheap and cheerful (and crappy) way to do that.

[Khyber]

I liked crafting early steel for repairs to items I found, couldn't craft the items yet myself. Haven't seen a need to upgrade blocks to steel, would be a waste of resources at this point. Concrete is good enough for AI pathing purposes imo.

 

I loved the idea of forged steel being craftable well before the steel tools, being able to be rewarded with that lucky find of a crappy steel tool early in the game and knowing you can keep repairing it made them impactful. Now, half the time I don't even take them with me for fear they'll break while i'm out (or i save them for when i "Really" want to use them, since i can't repair it). This doesn't even take into account the extreme frustration of unlocking the ability to craft Tier 1 and Tier 2 mods, only to discover you can no longer craft the components they require (and unlike mechanical parts, springs, forged iron etc there is nothing you can go around breaking to get them).

If they really want building steel blocks to be gated that's fine...but can the mods be changed so that the low level mods require forged Iron not steel, and maybe a way to make repair kits for tools that just take iron, instead of steel so you can still repair those lucky finds?

[Foralykai]

Are you certain that the crucible is locked behind Hammer and Forge rank 3, or is just locked behind the workbench?

 

Honest question.

 

Not offering an opinion one way or the other, but to answer your question, yes the crucible is unlocked at rank 3 of Hammer and Forge (checked the xml and tested in game).

[Limdood]

Poppatot, yes, i checked. Taking the required materials to a workbench yields the error message: you don't know the required recipe.

 

Viktoriusiii, If they want to gate upgrading concrete to steel then gate using an upgrade tool on concrete...or if that takes too much coding (it might, i don't know if the framework is there to gate ATTEMPTING to upgrade), then make upgrading concrete to steel use "steel plating" as a resource, and gate THAT item only.

 

The problem is that they gated making steel in any form, and still have steel tools given as low level trader quest rewards, steel tools able to be bought from traders (i highly prioritize getting a machete early game if i can find one) right from day 1, steel REQUIRED for every mod schematic, which are craftable from level 40, and steel required for advanced ammo, which is craftable from level 50.

 

IF the desired effect of the change was to gate upgrading concrete blocks to steel, then they could have done that with one simple added resource item, rather than break or severely limit how AT LEAST 4 other aspects of the game function.

 

If they insist on keeping the crucible and "forged steel" gated so high, then they need to:

- adjust tier 1 and tier 2 schematics to use forged iron instead of steel

- greatly increase the durability of low quality steel tools, to keep them from becoming super quickly useless, or allow them to be repaired with repair kits OR forged steel

- allow advanced arrows/bolts to be made from iron ammo, OR move them around in the tier list to also be available at 60 or above (and probably further increase their effectiveness to befit such a late game ammo)

- allow wrenches to be repaired and/or crafted with iron, OR add in an iron-tier tool for disassembling.

 

Because they design of the game suffered due to this change. They want to gate steel? fine, go nuts. But they need to fix the LOWER THAN LEVEL 60 things that they built to require steel before steel is available.

[LuckyStar]

The problem is that they gated making steel in any form, and still have steel tools given as low level trader quest rewards, steel tools able to be bought from traders (i highly prioritize getting a machete early game if i can find one) right from day 1, steel REQUIRED for every mod schematic, which are craftable from level 40, and steel required for advanced ammo, which is craftable from level 50.

 

 

Agreed but they also didn't leave us without an option to acquire steel very early on.

 

The Pole Tops give forged Iron and Forged Steel when you harvest them.

Are they limited? Yes.

But it's enough to keep you going for a short while until you level up.

[Well... sometimes. Sometimes you can't find one to save your life.]

[gotitdone]

When intentionally set out to find steel, you can find it in enough quantity for repairs.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Agreed but they also didn't leave us without an option to acquire steel very early on.

 

The Pole Tops give forged Iron and Forged Steel when you harvest them.

Are they limited? Yes.

But it's enough to keep you going for a short while until you level up.

[Well... sometimes. Sometimes you can't find one to save your life.]

 

What do you mean by pole tops? Light poles?

[LuckyStar]

When intentionally set out to find steel, you can find it in enough quantity for repairs.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

What do you mean by pole tops? Light poles?

 

In RWG you can find them in the wasteland.

 

They look like what you'd find at the top of an electrical pole.

 

Sometimes you'll also find them in junkyards or the backyard of a Gas station lying on the ground,

[Krougal]

Poppatot, yes, i checked. Taking the required materials to a workbench yields the error message: you don't know the required recipe.

 

Viktoriusiii, If they want to gate upgrading concrete to steel then gate using an upgrade tool on concrete...or if that takes too much coding (it might, i don't know if the framework is there to gate ATTEMPTING to upgrade), then make upgrading concrete to steel use "steel plating" as a resource, and gate THAT item only.

 

The problem is that they gated making steel in any form, and still have steel tools given as low level trader quest rewards, steel tools able to be bought from traders (i highly prioritize getting a machete early game if i can find one) right from day 1, steel REQUIRED for every mod schematic, which are craftable from level 40, and steel required for advanced ammo, which is craftable from level 50.

 

IF the desired effect of the change was to gate upgrading concrete blocks to steel, then they could have done that with one simple added resource item, rather than break or severely limit how AT LEAST 4 other aspects of the game function.

 

If they insist on keeping the crucible and "forged steel" gated so high, then they need to:

- adjust tier 1 and tier 2 schematics to use forged iron instead of steel

- greatly increase the durability of low quality steel tools, to keep them from becoming super quickly useless, or allow them to be repaired with repair kits OR forged steel

- allow advanced arrows/bolts to be made from iron ammo, OR move them around in the tier list to also be available at 60 or above (and probably further increase their effectiveness to befit such a late game ammo)

- allow wrenches to be repaired and/or crafted with iron, OR add in an iron-tier tool for disassembling.

 

Because they design of the game suffered due to this change. They want to gate steel? fine, go nuts. But they need to fix the LOWER THAN LEVEL 60 things that they built to require steel before steel is available.

 

Nothing wrong with allowing some of the recipes that we can't craft all the prereqs. That was one of my gripes that was fixed; if you find steel arrowheads then you should be able to use them, even before you can craft them.

 

I agree with some of your points. Mainly the schematics.

 

I'm split on the tools. On the 1 hand that means you need to treasure your steel tools early on, especially wrenches. It also does make them more of a reward when you get them as a reward. That being said, I have had widely varying luck on finding steel. Some games I've found steel right off the rip. Other times not on trader, not from quests, not in POI. Granted I didn't know some of the places to harvest steel.

[R0bb0b]

They have relocated some of the end game bore to the beginning. Before, when you were hit with the bore at end game you could either be creative and build something big or start a new game. Now that they have shifted a portion of the bore from the end to the beginning you have no choice but to endure the boredom. It now makes sense why they are struggling to provide experience for doing anything other than killing zombies. You are gimped so badly in the first 60 levels that it's nearly impossible to get experience doing anything else.

[JCrook1028]

So it's back to how it was in A16. I figure that's how it should have been from the start. I was rather shocked when I found I could craft steel early in b208. Not something to be upset about imo.

[LuckyStar]

if you find steel arrowheads then you should be able to use them, even before you can craft them.

 

That brings up one of my pet peeves ever since I started playing 7DTD.

 

When you scrap arrows you should get the arrow heads back!

 

Though.... now that the Crossbow sucks it's not as big of an issue to want to change arrows to bolts.

 

Still.... doesn't that make sense?

[Limdood]

Oh just found another one.

 

Motorcycle is craftable at level 50.

 

HAHA! GOTCHA! you can't make it until level 60! FOOLED YOU!

Even with traders, you're unlikely to get the 36 forged steel you need to make it unless you've been religiously hitting up several traders thru several different restocks.

 

THIS is bad game design. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt right now. It might have just been an honest mistake...a change made where they accidentally didn't consider some of the consequences. But they're going to need to fix their mistake.

 

They CAN make steel not able to be acquired until level 60, and then make MANY different key recipes between level 40-60 require significant amounts of steel, but they shouldn't.

 

So it's back to how it was in A16. I figure that's how it should have been from the start. I was rather shocked when I found I could craft steel early in b208. Not something to be upset about imo.

It absolutely is something to be upset about when they make steel unable to be created until level 60, then make several perks that give recipes that use 5-36 forged steel each available at levels 40 and 50

[EzRemade]

They need to slide all of the technology gates down by 10 levels. Needing to be level 20 to make a forge doesn't really make any sense, but at level 10 it does. At least that way we can end all the "end game" tiers at level 50, a nice beautiful number.

[PoppaTot]

Not offering an opinion one way or the other, but to answer your question, yes the crucible is unlocked at rank 3 of Hammer and Forge (checked the xml and tested in game).

 

Thanks for the answer, I was genuinely asking because we had this discussion on my server last night. I thought it was locked behind H&F3 due to chatter on the forum and my buddy thought it was just the workbench. Good to have a definitive answer, even if I don't like the answer lol

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Poppatot, yes, i checked. Taking the required materials to a workbench yields the error message: you don't know the required recipe.

 

Thank you as well for the definitive answer.

[Viktoriusiii]

I can't believe I'm saying this but:

 

I'm actually agreeing with TFPs. I'm still ALWAYS against levelgating. But making steel (in all its forms) gated behind levels is furthering progression.

 

Does the steeltool as a level 1 reward from the trader scream: "USE ME!!!" yes... but it doesn't go away after it breaks!

The trader also sometimes has steel to offer... but its finite! And steeltools should be endgame materials.

If the trader gives you one, you should treat it with care and not as a given.

 

Yes in 208 it was unlocked. And taking something away that was a basic thing isn't great. But in this instance, I have to agree with TFPs.

Steeltools (and wrenches) are lategame items. If you find them, use them sparingly until you can craft it or buy it at the trader.

 

Sorry guys... but it is the right descicion (even though not the right method! Levelgates are bs and will always stay that way. Make the steel perk cost more, require more intelligence or make it a book that can be a reward from a tier 2+ trader quest or something)

[LuckyStar]

Oh just found another one.

 

Motorcycle is craftable at level 50.

 

HAHA! GOTCHA! you can't make it until level 60! FOOLED YOU!

Even with traders, you're unlikely to get the 36 forged steel you need to make it ...

 

THIS is bad game design.

 

 

Hmmm... you have a point.

[jdifran]

In RWG you can find them in the wasteland.

 

They look like what you'd find at the top of an electrical pole.

 

Sometimes you'll also find them in junkyards or the backyard of a Gas station lying on the ground,

 

I think those are supposed to be the rear axle of a car, at least the ones that I've found in Pass N Gas and in a room on the ground floor of one of the ruined 5 storey buildings. Whatever they are supposed to be, they do give forged iron and steel and mechanical parts when harvested.

 

And, of course, traders often sell forged steel.

[Viktoriusiii]

Oh just found another one.

 

Motorcycle is craftable at level 50.

 

HAHA! GOTCHA! you can't make it until level 60! FOOLED YOU!

Even with traders, you're unlikely to get the 36 forged steel you need to make it unless you've been religiously hitting up several traders thru several different restocks.

 

True!

They should raise the level requirement for the motorbike to 60 then.

[LuckyStar]

I think those are supposed to be the rear axle of a car, ...

 

And they are found at the top of poles?

 

Also... they are called:

 

<block name="poleTop01">

 

in the XML.....

 

... but if you're sure.

 

[PoppaTot]

True!

They should raise the level requirement for the motorbike to 60 then.

 

Just raise everything to 100 and then have all perks available at the same time, that will definitely extend the early game!

 

All joking aside, I won't complain about things anymore until they do their balancing. The new system is here to stay, nothing any of TFPs have said would indicate they have any intention of reverting, listening to feedback, or budging on any matter. So at this point I'm just playing, seeing what I like and don't like, and waiting to see the "balances" in stable. Every topic has voices on each side, and they should because it's all player opinion, but the path is set and now it's time to see where it leads.

[LuckyStar]

All joking aside, I won't complain about things anymore until they do their balancing. The new system is here to stay, nothing any of TFPs have said would indicate they have any intention of reverting, listening to feedback, or budging on any matter. So at this point I'm just playing, seeing what I like and don't like, and waiting to see the "balances" in stable. Every topic has voices on each side, and they should because it's all player opinion, but the path is set and now it's time to see where it leads.

 

Yeah well said.

 

 

At least TFP have come forward saying they are actively looking for feedback to help balance.

So that means they aren't happy with how it's working at the moment either.... sorta.

 

We'll see.

Another month will make all the difference.