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7d2d horde "problem"


Viktoriusiii

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Here is where we differ in opinion. The A16 AI (even if we assume the circle running is gone) is not better. A17 AI is much nearer to a point where zombies can do something like "scouting every block until it found the weakest and then all head there".

 

Lets say it another way:

A17's A.I. has higher potential. They at least find entrances and actually use predetermined paths (which the previous one was unable to do).

A16's A.I. was way better refined in breaking into grounded structures. They felt random, but still had a sense of where they should go.

 

So, I still like A16's A.I. more... for now. But I do accept that A17 has a bigger potential, A.I. wise.

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Lets say it another way:

A17's A.I. has higher potential. They at least find entrances and actually use predetermined paths (which the previous one was unable to do).

A16's A.I. was way better refined in breaking into grounded structures. They felt random, but still had a sense of where they should go.

 

So, I still like A16's A.I. more... for now. But I do accept that A17 has a bigger potential, A.I. wise.

 

I agree with this.

 

In practice, a16 was better. But now that they have a good algorithm working, they could tune it to be better.

 

(and btw, improved zombie AI was the change i was more looking forward to in the notes, in no way do I want them just less skilled. It just turned out to not work in a cool way for defenses)

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The thing is, on top of getting block damage buff, zombies also stack inside eachother so no, realy don't wanna have zombies in 1 place, or they just chew thro that plase like thro butter.

 

Last hoard night I lost three blocks, all of them from the original POI. I shot the zombies from above, most of the time they died before they stopped to attack. When I reloaded, is when they were able to attack but the most at one spot was two and I killed them quickly after I finished reloading.

 

I expended about 200 rounds of 7.62mm (usually 2-3 rounds per zombie from the AK) and that was concerning but I looted some nice places and I have more than I started that last BM. The question is could I continue that? Probably, as using steel ammo and mining surface rock alone should do it at my mining level.

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Last hoard night I lost three blocks, all of them from the original POI. I shot the zombies from above, most of the time they died before they stopped to attack. When I reloaded, is when they were able to attack but the most at one spot was two and I killed them quickly after I finished reloading.

 

I expended about 200 rounds of 7.62mm (usually 2-3 rounds per zombie from the AK) and that was concerning but I looted some nice places and I have more than I started that last BM. The question is could I continue that? Probably, as using steel ammo and mining surface rock alone should do it at my mining level.

 

As long as can hit their heads constantly and drop them before they deal major damage during their life time, sure, it just gonna get so much harder when big guys come that sponge alot and slap blocks for hundrets of dmg. Btw, gj on hoarding so much ak ammo but doesn't the 200% durability loss hurt too much?

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Lets say it another way:

A17's A.I. has higher potential. They at least find entrances and actually use predetermined paths (which the previous one was unable to do).

A16's A.I. was way better refined in breaking into grounded structures. They felt random, but still had a sense of where they should go.

 

Limited to grounded bases (if that excludes stilt bases) i kind of agree.

I still think funneled pathways are as natural to real castles as thick walls so in practice A16 to me was frustratingly immune to any more "intelligent" design than stilts.

 

So, I still like A16's A.I. more... for now. But I do accept that A17 has a bigger potential, A.I. wise.

 

Even if both AIs had comparable advantages I would prefer A17's because it needs/makes possible new ways to build your defense. I played the old AI for nearly 2 years and 2 alpha releases now and knowing exactly what needs to be done is not as good as the new and shiny :smile-new:

 

So our analysis of the situation isn't really far off, just our subjective assessment differs.

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As long as can hit their heads constantly and drop them before they deal major damage during their life time, sure, it just gonna get so much harder when big guys come that sponge alot and slap blocks for hundrets of dmg. Btw, gj on hoarding so much ak ammo but doesn't the 200% durability loss hurt too much?

 

I haven't needed to use steel yet, as I have 200% loot and I must admit it makes the game very easy early game. I'm still trying to find a good balance for myself.

The ideal game for me will be a close race to get a gyrocopter before I'm killed! :)

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Very funny.

 

Sitting behind a stone wall and waiting for horde night to be over won't do the trick. I know that it was a perfectly viable tactic in A16 and apparently that was not considered "boring" or "an exploit".

 

 

 

I have watched "classic" bases being defended. Walls, spikes, the works. No pathing tricks at all.

So that works but it is not what you consider "the cool way"?

 

IMO a base does not have to be completely immune to damage so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Well your example was a BREACH. That's a failure to defend. Whoopty-doo they didn't die. Who does during horde night? You just escape up to the roof and shoot down. The fact they can breach several layers so quickly even when people are actively shooting them is a problem.

 

If you've done everything correctly - made good defenses, have plenty of ammo, hit what you shoot at, actively try to make repairs and kill at the same time - a classic base made out of stone should not be breached so quickly at least so early in the game. I have been breached many times over the years and until A17 - in most cases I was like "yep, i deserved that" - but in A17 its CHEAP. They just chew threw it and there's no real counter to prevent it.

 

No one who still makes classic bases are just 'sitting behind a stone wall' "waiting" are you serious? Really!? The kind of people who are still trying to play this game as intended are far away from the ones who are just building a base, cowering in a corner hoping it holds without defending. You are so disconnected from reality....

 

The game currently rewards exploiting the AI with as little resource usage as possible. It is even easier now than ever to exploit the AI - a lot of times it's so bad that it's not even intentional. I just learned on my last playthrough through no fault of my own that if you make a rail system on pillars with a pillbox in the middle to drop down and shoot them face to face in - that they prefer just all bunching up at the pillars themselves and you just shoot them in the back all night long without any effort.

 

The only way to actually make them challenging is to put no obstacles and make a square so they have a clear path. The most boring thing ever. I want to be down in the trenches with them fighting them off my base not exploiting them. I do not consider block damage boosted as a challenge. I actually look at YOU DEVS as the 'exploiters' if you want to play that game. You just boost their damage to blocks and say - see we make zombies more challenging.

 

There is NOTHING impressive about an AI that can destroy blocks THAT quickly. It does far more harm to the game than good. Makes all blocks but steel in the game useless.

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Well, to the post above. Played for past 1 hour and was observing a zombie leaving a poi that was blocked by 2 pieces of stairs, it just machinegunned those blocks lol, their attack vs players is not that fast, but they hit blocks like 3 times per second, no wonder they chew thro everything like thro paper, especialy when they stack inside eachother during hordes.

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There is NOTHING impressive about an AI that can destroy blocks THAT quickly. It does far more harm to the game than good. Makes all blocks but steel in the game useless.

 

Agree with this.

 

Some of the blocks we have in the game now are antiquated.

 

 

I'm not sure what the solution is but at some point this issue needs to be addressed.

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Our second attempt at a base is almost impenetrable and all 3 of us are level 80-100. We've been using this base since around level 20, day 7. its day like 24 and all we've done is replace spikes on the outside. The zombies take the easiest path to you now. So if breaking the wall is easiest they will do that, if going throught your maze is easiest they will do that isntead. We have 2-3 thick flagstone (slowly turning into concrete) walls all around us. Metal spikes cover every surface they will walk on and barbed wire on the walls to slow them down. We shoot at them from within the center (we used half blocks so we can see and shoot).

 

 

WE've only lost blocks to stupdi stuff like the groudn being uneven and the zombies got stuck and started being screwey >..>

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I'm happy for you that you play with friends.

I do not.

Once I need to reload, they got me.

 

And while yes, I can probably also "funnel" them, this is not what I want in my 7D2D.

I can survive if I want to...

but I WANT to bunker! I WANT to feel like they can break through any second. What I don't want is them getting through my defenses that I spent 7 days building in less than 2 ingame hours.

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I'm happy for you that you play with friends.

I do not.

Once I need to reload, they got me.

 

And while yes, I can probably also "funnel" them, this is not what I want in my 7D2D.

I can survive if I want to...

but I WANT to bunker! I WANT to feel like they can break through any second. What I don't want is them getting through my defenses that I spent 7 days building in less than 2 ingame hours.

 

Hearing a lot of "I WANT" going on there.....

 

 

....hmmm maybe you could also "WANT" to make an adjustment in the main menu?

Perhaps something to do with how much damage a block can take?

 

That's there somewhere right?

 

I could be wrong..... but I don't think I am.

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Very funny.

 

Sitting behind a stone wall and waiting for horde night to be over won't do the trick. I know that it was a perfectly viable tactic in A16 and apparently that was not considered "boring" or "an exploit".

 

 

 

I have watched "classic" bases being defended. Walls, spikes, the works. No pathing tricks at all.

So that works but it is not what you consider "the cool way"?

 

IMO a base does not have to be completely immune to damage so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

This! Just because sitting behind a concrete wall with no traps just waiting for horde night to end like in 16 doesn't work doesnt mean zombies need to be nerfed... the game isn't "build a wall and sit behind it every 7 days afk". Classic bases CAN be defended.

https://ibb.co/KrskKZ0

https://ibb.co/yWFLJz4

https://ibb.co/6bnSZkJ

https://ibb.co/rx4VgZ1

 

Cobblestone wall never got touched. I used most of the ammo I found, but I scavenged for more after. Have enough to hopefully last next one; I will be adding a secondary wood or cobblestone wall around it if I have the resources, or just add more spikes. Yes, if I were to just stand there doing nothing combat wise, it would have fallen. But that's why there's combat... you can't sweet talk the zombies... But, I guess that means I am a "fanboi" for enjoying zombies being able to break through my ♥♥♥♥ if I don't defend it.

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This! Just because sitting behind a concrete wall with no traps just waiting for horde night to end like in 16 doesn't work doesnt mean zombies need to be nerfed... the game isn't "build a wall and sit behind it every 7 days afk". Classic bases CAN be defended.

https://ibb.co/KrskKZ0

https://ibb.co/yWFLJz4

https://ibb.co/6bnSZkJ

https://ibb.co/rx4VgZ1

 

Cobblestone wall never got touched. I used most of the ammo I found, but I scavenged for more after. Have enough to hopefully last next one; I will be adding a secondary wood or cobblestone wall around it if I have the resources, or just add more spikes. Yes, if I were to just stand there doing nothing combat wise, it would have fallen. But that's why there's combat... you can't sweet talk the zombies... But, I guess that means I am a "fanboi" for enjoying zombies being able to break through my ♥♥♥♥ if I don't defend it.

 

Just curious, what settings? SP or MP? BM count?

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Hearing a lot of "I WANT" going on there.....

 

 

....hmmm maybe you could also "WANT" to make an adjustment in the main menu?

Perhaps something to do with how much damage a block can take?

 

That's there somewhere right?

 

I could be wrong..... but I don't think I am.

 

You are though :D

I'm advocating for EVERY playstyle to have it's validity (nonexploit obviously)

So if you want to be a tank and run around murdering zombies, that should be possible.

If you want to shoot zombies from above while they try and destroy the foundations, that should be possible.

And trying to build up loads of defenses and trying to bunker in yourself and only shoot those that make it should ALSO be a viable way to play.

 

Obviously "I want" that to happen. But not because I want them to cater to my specific playstyle, but because if there are only very limited "viable" strategies, it becomes boring real quick!

 

And "changing options" is not changing this issue for anyone else, nor does it change the core problem that singleplayer, basebuilders face.

 

Should EVERY basebuilder without friends change either options or play with friends?

 

"Hearing a lot of "I don't play your way so I don't care" going on there....."

 

I'm saying "look I'm very VERY seasoned in this game and I never really died before A17 and if I can't make it work, I am pretty sure that it is too hard for the casual player to make it work, no matter the settings".

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Just curious, what settings? SP or MP? BM count?

 

Warrior difficulty, SP, And I think 12, whatever two changes up from default is lol I can't think of the exact number. Honestly the only reason I lost so many spikes on 2 sides was because a couple of cops showed up and exploding while I was fighting a cpl rads (and a damn spider that jumped onto my railings haha). Boom Headshot really is a grand perk, shooting down from above almost guarantees headshot kills quickly.ANd Victor, look at my screenshots lol. It's very possible to defend a base and "make it work". Only a handful of iron spikes and a bunch of wood ones.

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Warrior difficulty, SP, And I think 12, whatever two changes up from default is lol I can't think of the exact number. Honestly the only reason I lost so many spikes on 2 sides was because a couple of cops showed up and exploding while I was fighting a cpl rads (and a damn spider that jumped onto my railings haha). Boom Headshot really is a grand perk, shooting down from above almost guarantees headshot kills quickly.ANd Victor, look at my screenshots lol. It's very possible to defend a base and "make it work". Only a handful of iron spikes and a bunch of wood ones.

 

Right on, that's good work with those settings for sure.

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Right on, that's good work with those settings for sure.

 

Thanks! I mean granted those iron spikes did most of the work... they killed the cops lol. I will admit I've been an on and off counter-striker since.. half life 1... (im not old); so fps combat is in my reflexes, but really the spike layouts really did most of it. Stuff was dying before I had a chance to kill most of them. And if you look close, I had a fail-safe layer of spikes around my wood/iron core set up in the same fashion, if thye broke down the cobblestone, they were hit straight away by more spikes, and the 1-gap distance would allow me to stand on the bars on the cobblestone wall to get a better angle to fight back. I made a somewhat similar design in a MP server with a friend on jacked up difficulty, made a triple-wal 1-gap deep box around a 2-story core. Tunnel entrance and exit with no doors. Held up decently, too. Though they did break through 2 layers of walls at day 49 horde. Just too many rad cops and wights, but the base never was fully breached.

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Thanks! I mean granted those iron spikes did most of the work... they killed the cops lol. I will admit I've been an on and off counter-striker since.. half life 1... (im not old); so fps combat is in my reflexes, but really the spike layouts really did most of it. Stuff was dying before I had a chance to kill most of them. And if you look close, I had a fail-safe layer of spikes around my wood/iron core set up in the same fashion, if thye broke down the cobblestone, they were hit straight away by more spikes, and the 1-gap distance would allow me to stand on the bars on the cobblestone wall to get a better angle to fight back. I made a somewhat similar design in a MP server with a friend on jacked up difficulty, made a triple-wal 1-gap deep box around a 2-story core. Tunnel entrance and exit with no doors. Held up decently, too. Though they did break through 2 layers of walls at day 49 horde. Just too many rad cops and wights, but the base never was fully breached.

 

I can post a twitch clip of a semi funnel type kill zone that I made in Navezgane you might be interested. It is definitely and end game base and not early stage. I built it for everyone on my dedicated server. I say "funnel type" because it definitely was to draw them in, but it we also had retreat areas if needed.

 

it's hard to explain, but It was pretty much a 12x12 box in the middle, had a 3 wide lane that extend 15 blocks out on each side, the middle had a second story, the lanes roofs were iron bars (I miss jail doors), then I made another square wall about 6 blocks out from the inner square, and another squared fence at the 15 block distance. put 1 row of spikes around the out wall to path them to the tunnels. Each tunnel had 5 blade traps and a turret fire down the lane, and a spot light to light up each lane. Was just too OP for this AI in my opinion.

 

EDIT: forgot to mention that I had electric fences zig zagged down each lane as well lol

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Hearing a lot of "I WANT" going on there.....

 

 

....hmmm maybe you could also "WANT" to make an adjustment in the main menu?

Perhaps something to do with how much damage a block can take?

 

That's there somewhere right?

 

I could be wrong..... but I don't think I am.

 

There is but it also makes breaking into safesa nightmare, breaking into pois a nightmare, gathering resources for those 2x stronger blocks... also takes 2x longer, if the settings for block resistance was separate from generated and playermade then sure, but untill then that setting might aswell not exist.

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This! Just because sitting behind a concrete wall with no traps just waiting for horde night to end like in 16 doesn't work doesnt mean zombies need to be nerfed... the game isn't "build a wall and sit behind it every 7 days afk". Classic bases CAN be defended.

https://ibb.co/KrskKZ0

https://ibb.co/yWFLJz4

https://ibb.co/6bnSZkJ

https://ibb.co/rx4VgZ1

 

Cobblestone wall never got touched. I used most of the ammo I found, but I scavenged for more after. Have enough to hopefully last next one; I will be adding a secondary wood or cobblestone wall around it if I have the resources, or just add more spikes. Yes, if I were to just stand there doing nothing combat wise, it would have fallen. But that's why there's combat... you can't sweet talk the zombies... But, I guess that means I am a "fanboi" for enjoying zombies being able to break through my ♥♥♥♥ if I don't defend it.

 

And so the players that choose to go on higher difficulties either have to run arround or build cheese mazes and whatever to exploit AI?, bcs clearly there is no castle making and resisting the horde on higher difficulties where player have much less dmg and zombies much more hp/dmg. Untill got steel and concrete, couldn't survive the night, that's not about not being able to survive the night bcs can aswell just run arround, grab ak or shotty and as long as will not wear heavy armor will be able to outrun them but the player that like base building can't do what they like now, in A15/A16, could make a base made of 3 layers of 3 lines of log spikes and barbed wire in front of each layer, then in center have a bunker of reinforced concrete and iron bars that was only connected with outside world by underground tunnel. It worked bcs they attacked from all sides, nowthey beeline to either weakest spot or to a single spot where some zombies already started chewing on so basicaly they avoid like 90% of traps and walls to get thro that 10% traps and 2 walls, how encouraging to build anything, not to mention that even when building tower with ramp so they can't just choose where to strike they still together chew thro those maxed doors like butter untill will get steel where they are atleast capable of anything. That's saying about the hgihest difficulties, not some nomad or whatever arround where zombies die from 1-2 smacks with a wooden club. (would play nomad to make horde nights more enjoyable, but then daily exploration would be a joke bcs a zombie bear will deal 1 dmg thro that heavy armor or something and die from just looking at it)

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I can post a twitch clip of a semi funnel type kill zone that I made in Navezgane you might be interested. It is definitely and end game base and not early stage. I built it for everyone on my dedicated server. I say "funnel type" because it definitely was to draw them in, but it we also had retreat areas if needed.

 

it's hard to explain, but It was pretty much a 12x12 box in the middle, had a 3 wide lane that extend 15 blocks out on each side, the middle had a second story, the lanes roofs were iron bars (I miss jail doors), then I made another square wall about 6 blocks out from the inner square, and another squared fence at the 15 block distance. put 1 row of spikes around the out wall to path them to the tunnels. Each tunnel had 5 blade traps and a turret fire down the lane, and a spot light to light up each lane. Was just too OP for this AI in my opinion.

 

EDIT: forgot to mention that I had electric fences zig zagged down each lane as well lol

 

Oh nice, that does sound fun -- I'd definitely enjoy seeing that if you wanted to post. I wouldn't go so heavy on the traps to make things more interesting, but building with blocks gets to me sometimes, I am not used to it... so more creative builds I havent gotten used to. I really need to go into a creative game and practice or watch some streams such as yours lol. I'll keep an eye out or just go to your Twitch page.

 

And Nighty.. I built and defended that base on Warrior difficulty with jacked up spawning, and the only guns I used on my hotbar were my pistol and the magnum on a spider that jumped onto my bars.

I built a similar design, just a bit bigger with more spikes and 3 layers of walls on Survivalist (1 step below insane) with even MORE jacked up spawn on bloodmoon and the last horde night survived at day 49. So, I don't know what you're rambling about. The other design was a mix of concrete, cobblestone and iron blocks. By far not a bunker. Survived every blood moon. I put one concrete wall around a crushed-car encampment and survived 8 blood moons in it.

 

Either you're standing there watching the zombies beat your bases up and not combating them, or relying on walls alone. Both worked on insane difficulty with 64 zombie spawns (including a modded XML guppy made giving constant spawning), but that won't work in 17. Adapt - improvise - overcome. Not "Well guess ill do what I did before and die now."

 

And the AI goes for the weakest point? Okay so dont make a weak point. Look at my screenshots, clearly it's a cobble stone wall with spikes around it. All 4 sides were hit. 4 screens, 4 sides of the base. They revert for going to you if theres no weak spots. And if they do go for weak spots, you can't think "hey they're going for weak spots, and I have put weak spots in, I should either not have weak spots or know to combat them there"

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And so the players that choose to go on higher difficulties either have to run arround or build cheese mazes and whatever to exploit AI?, bcs clearly there is no castle making and resisting the horde on higher difficulties where player have much less dmg and zombies much more hp/dmg. Untill got steel and concrete, couldn't survive the night, that's not about not being able to survive the night bcs can aswell just run arround, grab ak or shotty and as long as will not wear heavy armor will be able to outrun them but the player that like base building can't do what they like now, in A15/A16, could make a base made of 3 layers of 3 lines of log spikes and barbed wire in front of each layer, then in center have a bunker of reinforced concrete and iron bars that was only connected with outside world by underground tunnel. It worked bcs they attacked from all sides, nowthey beeline to either weakest spot or to a single spot where some zombies already started chewing on so basicaly they avoid like 90% of traps and walls to get thro that 10% traps and 2 walls, how encouraging to build anything, not to mention that even when building tower with ramp so they can't just choose where to strike they still together chew thro those maxed doors like butter untill will get steel where they are atleast capable of anything. That's saying about the hgihest difficulties, not some nomad or whatever arround where zombies die from 1-2 smacks with a wooden club. (would play nomad to make horde nights more enjoyable, but then daily exploration would be a joke bcs a zombie bear will deal 1 dmg thro that heavy armor or something and die from just looking at it)

 

They should make zombie pathing 90% random/false (so they don't pick a weakspot and hit something that would need up to 40k hp more, if its only like 2-4 blocks (so that they won't start digging up dirt to try and tunnel under you)) and only 10% gps tracking to the weakspots.

Maybe even only 5%.

And once the playerfeedback is there you can buff that % chance.

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Oh nice, that does sound fun -- I'd definitely enjoy seeing that if you wanted to post. I wouldn't go so heavy on the traps to make things more interesting, but building with blocks gets to me sometimes, I am not used to it... so more creative builds I havent gotten used to. I really need to go into a creative game and practice or watch some streams such as yours lol. I'll keep an eye out or just go to your Twitch page.

 

And Nighty.. I built and defended that base on Warrior difficulty with jacked up spawning, and the only guns I used on my hotbar were my pistol and the magnum on a spider that jumped onto my bars.

I built a similar design, just a bit bigger with more spikes and 3 layers of walls on Survivalist (1 step below insane) with even MORE jacked up spawn on bloodmoon and the last horde night survived at day 49. So, I don't know what you're rambling about. The other design was a mix of concrete, cobblestone and iron blocks. By far not a bunker. Survived every blood moon. I put one concrete wall around a crushed-car encampment and survived 8 blood moons in it.

 

Either you're standing there watching the zombies beat your bases up and not combating them, or relying on walls alone. Both worked on insane difficulty with 64 zombie spawns (including a modded XML guppy made giving constant spawning), but that won't work in 17. Adapt - improvise - overcome. Not "Well guess ill do what I did before and die now."

 

And the AI goes for the weakest point? Okay so dont make a weak point. Look at my screenshots, clearly it's a cobble stone wall with spikes around it. All 4 sides were hit. 4 screens, 4 sides of the base. They revert for going to you if theres no weak spots. And if they do go for weak spots, you can't think "hey they're going for weak spots, and I have put weak spots in, I should either not have weak spots or know to combat them there"

 

I went heavy on the traps because I was end-game, level 100+. Was just time to sit back and watch the slaughter lmao. We were still shooting down the lanes too though.

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/349162905

 

^^^that is just the full horde night clip for Day 56, you'll definitely get the whole base layout by just perusing lol

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Damage to blocks is too high in a17. Gonna say this before the usual argument: Not because of the difficulty. Theres many ways to survive, like just running, building a maze, or the easiest, a small easy structure that makes them loop indefinately. The damage to blocks is too high bc it discourages building a sturdy base, and encourages exploiting the AI.

 

Agree 100%

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