Soooo, now that we have power attack....

[Katitof]

What's the point to use regular one for... well... anything?

Gathering resources takes longer, fights are longer and harder, in both you lose durability faster on the tool/weapon and special effects don't seem to occur with regular attack so... why does it even exist?

 

Why regular attack isn't simply replaced with power attack?

Is it because of gathering of grass/crops?

Because it feels like that is the only active thing in game that actually makes sense to use light attack instead of power attack on.

 

Light attack really needs something, or just remove it as its redundant.

[Zourin]

Light attack is very stamina efficient, both in terms of per-swing, but very much in terms of damage to max stamina. heavy attacking everything means you need to eat more often, so unless you've perked Metabolism, you're going to be downing stew pretty frequently.

 

I've also found that light attacks generally yield slightly more resources than blowing through HP with heavies, so there's that too.

[Katitof]

Light attack is very stamina efficient, both in terms of per-swing, but very much in terms of damage to max stamina. heavy attacking everything means you need to eat more often, so unless you've perked Metabolism, you're going to be downing stew pretty frequently.

 

I've also found that light attacks generally yield slightly more resources than blowing through HP with heavies, so there's that too.

 

Sure, you can efficiently hit zombie 10 times, or just power attack it twice and be done with it in a fraction of the time.

You can stamina efficiently hit dirt block 10 times or just be inefficient and 2 hit it in quarter of time.

 

Food isn't any issue outside of first days.

 

And about resources, from my experience, you get similar if not the exact same yeld from both attacks, except with power attack, you'll harvest incomparably more in the same time frame, even including time to rest.

[secateurs]

Hey come on, don't you also want to drive a bit slower sometimes? People like the slow progression in A17 I'm told

[Viktoriusiii]

food is never an issue. So who cares about max stamina. hard hits stun more, gather more ressources and its quicker overall.

The only time I use them is to finish off an obstacle or for gras and other flowers.

 

I have seen a thread saying that light attacks should not cost stamina... and that is a bit over the top, but it should take less stamina (in ratio to power) then the strong ones. Because the strong hits get perkbuffs. There is currently no reason for light attacks. They are slower and dont yield more ressources and dont knock zombies down.

[Zourin]

With combat, obviously, heavy attacks have the advantage of knock downs, staggers, and just generally getting the job done in a way where you're not dead if you do it right.

 

however, for general harvesting, boulders, trees, cars, etc, light attacks save considerably on max stam burn and regen burn, and generally yield more resources per node. Food may 'never be an issue' for you, but that's just you. Not everyone has so much luck finding a half-dozen boar to stuff down their throat each day.

[ricp]

It's true that I predominantly use power attacks for zombies and harvesting, but I do swap to a normal attack if I can get away with it and that's purely down to stamina. Not that stamina is an issue as such, more that I'd be wasting stamina using power attacks for things or situations that don't need them. You never know when that 10% stamina you eked out, by not power hitting a nearly destroyed block, will come in handy.

 

The one power attack thing I don't understand is the love people have for axe or sledgehammer on zombies. Sure it packs a punch but ultimately after a few perks and/or mods/dyes the reinforced bat will knock down and kill enemies with the same number of power attacks yet takes so much less stamina and swings considerably faster than a fireaxe or sledgehammer.

[Ghostlight]

Light attack is very stamina efficient, both in terms of per-swing, but very much in terms of damage to max stamina. heavy attacking everything means you need to eat more often, so unless you've perked Metabolism, you're going to be downing stew pretty frequently.

 

Not really. Once you get perked for Stamina it becomes a non-issue and you can Power Attack infinitely.

 

I've also found that light attacks generally yield slightly more resources than blowing through HP with heavies, so there's that too.

 

The only time that is true is when you are gather Cloth and Leather from couches etc. i.e. any source that does not give you a big boost of resource when you destroy it. Trees and boulders, and other sources which give you a big resource boost when they are destroyed (and 1 such boost for each stage of a boulder) are most efficiently farmed by destroying them as fast as possible and moving to the next one.

 

I agree with OP, there is absolutely no point in light attack to be in the game outside of farming (and since farming is rather pointless too, since food is basically hardly ever needed once you perk for Stamina). They should just remove it and make the LMB do a heavy attack, and then add something more interesting to RMB for melee, like a takedown or somesuch.

[Ghostlight]

The one power attack thing I don't understand is the love people have for axe or sledgehammer on zombies. Sure it packs a punch but ultimately after a few perks and/or mods/dyes the reinforced bat will knock down and kill enemies with the same number of power attacks yet takes so much less stamina and swings considerably faster than a fireaxe or sledgehammer.

 

Correct. Once you are perked appropriately, the basic club with its ultra-fast heavy attack totally outshines a sledge or axe with the same heavy attack. People just like their Sledges I guess. And have you seen a Sledgehammer wielder who is perked into the heavy weapon knockdown skill? It's sick.

[ricp]

Correct. Once you are perked appropriately, the basic club with its ultra-fast heavy attack totally outshines a sledge or axe with the same heavy attack. People just like their Sledges I guess. And have you seen a Sledgehammer wielder who is perked into the heavy weapon knockdown skill? It's sick.

 

Sooooo much salt about this from the streaming community, and it all follows the same pattern.

 

1/ "Guys, guys, I've been told axes and sledgehammers do serious damage, I need to check it out"

 

2/ "Wow, this is fun.." (as they power attack a slow moving conga line of zombies) "..this is going to be excellent for PoI/feral/horde night!"

 

3/ (upon encountering a PoI/ferals/horde) "Sh*t dude! This game is bugged, I'm swinging away and I'm still getting swamped. Something is wrong with A17, man, something is definitely wrong!"

 

I've seen it like 5 or 6 times and while I don't want to name names (although the streamers who read this forum will know they were guilty of this!) it seems that they've been blinded by the cinematic experience of halfing a zombie with an axe power swing. Now don't get me wrong, it is fun and considerably satisfying, but ultimately it's showboating and results in slow defence, serious stamina drain and an inefficient fighting strategy. After being made to look stupid online, the streamers then lay out a line of salt about how it's the game's fault and not them missing the blindingly obvious.

[Ghostlight]

It's funny isn't it? Most streamers (no names, hah ha) of this game actually suck at it big time. Especially in the areas of general combat and progression efficiency. I stopped watching most of them some time ago because I was just ending up shouting "you idiot!" at the screen so often that my children thought I had lost it.

 

I vividly remember the weekend when streamers got A17 before we all did. I certainly watched a lot of them that weekend as I was dying to play the new build. I came away with the impression that A17 was rock solid HARD. I mean way harder than A16, right?....streamers were like "I am actually dying, and I never die!". I was actually scared going into A17 when I finally got it, even cranked the difficulty way down to 1 to begin with. What a joke. I later realized the streamers just generally sucked at combat.

[ricp]

I've got a bit a of sympathy for the ones I follow, as they cover so many games that when something new comes out, say the A17Exp then they don't bother reading the release notes as they want to discover and explore without spoilers. This also reflects well with their audience. You really don't want to "tune in" (oh, I'm showing my age with that sort of phrasing) and see someone knocking it out of the park on their very first try.

 

However, not reading some info leaves them treating this game like A16.4 and getting their backsides handed to them and then getting all salty online.

 

Completely agree regarding the b194 streamer release, but I have to be honest with you it seems that since then the difficulty has been nerfed a little. I was struggling a little in the very early releases but by 199 and onwards the zombies have offered very little resistance.

[Zvex]

Light attacks let you to hit more frequently, which is very useful when you are out of stamina and need to stagger a running (feral) zombie. Waiting for stamina for 1 hit lets zombie to continuously hit you, however, a bunch of light and fast attacks staggers him for the most of the time, while you are still replenishing your stamina (while hitting with light attacks).

[Snowydeath]

Light attacks let you to hit more frequently, which is very useful when you are out of stamina and need to stagger a running (feral) zombie. Waiting for stamina for 1 hit lets zombie to continuously hit you, however, a bunch of light and fast attacks staggers him for the most of the time, while you are still replenishing your stamina (while hitting with light attacks).

 

With the flurry of blows perks light attacking can become more efficient as well (assuming you use light weapons) I always use heavy (Sledge Hammers) so I don't perk into it. I'll be testing many different play styles though and Light attacker is one of them.

[Krougal]

I find it useful if I just need a quick finishing blow or messed up timing on my power attack and I find it can be a hail mary in that situation so you get a quick hit in and quickly move away. Since I'm playing mostly archer at the moment. And of course as others have said if you're low on stamina. It's nice to have options.

[Kosmic Kerman]

It's funny isn't it? Most streamers (no names, hah ha) of this game actually suck at it big time. Especially in the areas of general combat and progression efficiency. I stopped watching most of them some time ago because I was just ending up shouting "you idiot!" at the screen so often that my children thought I had lost it.

 

I vividly remember the weekend when streamers got A17 before we all did. I certainly watched a lot of them that weekend as I was dying to play the new build. I came away with the impression that A17 was rock solid HARD. I mean way harder than A16, right?....streamers were like "I am actually dying, and I never die!". I was actually scared going into A17 when I finally got it, even cranked the difficulty way down to 1 to begin with. What a joke. I later realized the streamers just generally sucked at combat.

 

On the other hand, your play style might not be particularly entertaining.

[SickPuppy]

I think power attack will be balanced, it's too strong atm.

 

There's also ppl who want to play sneak build, power attacks groan will aggro zombies

[Krougal]

On the other hand, your play style might not be particularly entertaining.

 

True dat. Most streamers I've watched suck at most of the games they play, some of them are very entertaining still, others aren't very entertaining but provide very useful info.

 

OTOH, I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to sit and watch me play either(I know my wife isn't amused)

 

I think power attack will be balanced, it's too strong atm.

 

There's also ppl who want to play sneak build, power attacks groan will aggro zombies

 

Why do you think it's too strong?

 

Does it or are you speculating (the aggro)?

[SickPuppy]

U don't even have to max out perks to easily take down cops and bikers even on insane. Then maxed out u have aoe knockdowns. Even a QA tester streaming today acknowledged it was very strong and most things will need balancing in experimental.

 

The groan aggro: Just my mileage so far in A17, the groan from power attacks are random sometimes u can get away with it and remain silent, but once yr character decides to groan the zombie you're trying to hit wakes up. If u successfully sneak up on a sleeper the light attack is silent and should trigger the bonus sneak damage.

[Krougal]

U don't even have to max out perks to easily take down cops and bikers even on insane. Then maxed out u have aoe knockdowns. Even a QA tester streaming today acknowledged it was very strong and most things will need balancing in experimental.

 

The groan aggro: Just my mileage so far in A17, the groan from power attacks are random sometimes u can get away with it and remain silent, but once yr character decides to groan the zombie you're trying to hit wakes up. If u successfully sneak up on a sleeper the light attack is silent and should trigger the bonus sneak damage.

 

Would think you'd be out of stamina before then. I guess it is then? Ugh. I still don't know how people play on insane, and then complain it's too easy to boot. Not hating, more envious. OTOH, as I said elsewhere, I find bulletsponges add more tedium than difficulty, and when a game gets tedious my level of give a ♥♥♥♥ drops, and then I am more prone to make mistakes, and that is what gets me killed more often than not - so that being the biggest danger, I would literaly be bored to death on insane.

 

I went all in melee 1st A17 attempt, looked at all the perks costs though, and decided since I'd rather go gun at higher level anyway (kinda got my fill of melee from DL) to go bow spec. I admit melee is still very viable for me, even with my only relevant leveled perk being strength. Still getting proper A17 timing down with the sledge, but almost there. Bones now too precious a commodity to be wasting my shiv on zeds these days!

 

Interesting with the aggro. Since I never could manage a sneak melee headshot in A16 I haven't tried it in A17.

[SickPuppy]

Would think you'd be out of stamina before then. I guess it is then? Ugh. I still don't know how people play on insane, and then complain it's too easy to boot. Not hating, more envious. OTOH, as I said elsewhere, I find bulletsponges add more tedium than difficulty, and when a game gets tedious my level of give a ♥♥♥♥ drops, and then I am more prone to make mistakes, and that is what gets me killed more often than not - so that being the biggest danger, I would literaly be bored to death on insane.

 

I went all in melee 1st A17 attempt, looked at all the perks costs though, and decided since I'd rather go gun at higher level anyway (kinda got my fill of melee from DL) to go bow spec. I admit melee is still very viable for me, even with my only relevant leveled perk being strength. Still getting proper A17 timing down with the sledge, but almost there. Bones now too precious a commodity to be wasting my shiv on zeds these days!

 

Interesting with the aggro. Since I never could manage a sneak melee headshot in A16 I haven't tried it in A17.

 

With the right perks stamina isn't a problem even with heavy melee. I'm not particularly fond of bullet sponge but it adds some challenge and without it there would be no need to upgrade to better weapons, day1 wooden bow and club would be enough which would be stupid.

 

There's not much TFP can do that won't piss ppl off. Bullet sponges have been in video games for as long as i can remember. Not defending bullet sponging. But they add animals, ppl are pissed they die to wolves and dogs. Ppl want more challenge, other ppl are pissed zombies dig. They make their game easily moddable to please everyone, some are disgusted they have to get their hands dirty changing a few lines of code. Coming here can be a vicious cycle, but I want to know the latest news of 7days and I can't help myself and get roped into it, have to give credit to the moderators doing this every day, they're made of stern stuff.

 

Sneak needs a lot of love, right now it's very unbalanced. U try to walk over a coffee table or sth 1 block high, make that big landing sound and wake a whole load of zombies. It doesn't matter how careful/good u play level gate says no u can't be quiet. NVG isn't working yet so you're left with mining helmet which wakes zombies. The final sneak perk comes way too late, by then you'll be strong enough to face zombies head on. Don't really recommend the sneak build atm, besides whacking zombies with sledge is satisfying, they've really nailed the weight and feel, plus the flying rag doll animations, good times.

[DaChibii]

So I was the one the mentioned light (non-power) attacks cost no stamina. Not that I suggested it to be taken draconian in implementation, but rather to ignite the exploration of other ideas.

 

Anyways... Basically the combat system can easily flowcharted along with the stamina economy. While the no-cost stamina light attack may seem overpowered, if stamina has a reliable on constant regeneration than it's effectively free anyways. Then it's a balancing of DPS between power attacks and light attacks so that one isn't overall more powerful than the other. One way to look at that is to make sure that power-attacks on the short term do more DPS than light ones, but light attacks still provide near better DPS overall.

 

An example: Let's say Light Attacks have the following stats (0 stamina cost, 25 damage, 12 RPM/Animation Takes 5secs) so in 1min a player can swing 12 times for a max damage of 300. A power attack could then be (33% Stamina, 100 Damage, 12 RPM/Same Attack Speed) and as long as the stamina refreshes fully after a minute then the balanced in that regards. Keep in mind these are just placeholder numbers, but rather the relationship between the two is what matters. Once the right relationship between the two is established, enemy health is then measured against for the ideal maximum kills/min that developer feels right. In the above example, a normal zombie could have 100 health meaning 3 kills / min using Light or Power attacks, but using power attacks trades short term gain (3 kills/15sec) for a vulnerability of no stamina. Or the player could use a combination of power attacks and light attacks (2 power attacks followed by a series of light ones) to reduce the risk but increase the short term DPS.

 

Granted this is for only melee combat as ranged combat has an entirely different economy and feel to it. Generally ranged combat doesn't offer a choice of what attack to do but rather a choice where to attack. Additionally the cost of attacks is measured in ammo and not stamina. So a ranged player would have a pool of ammo and a choice of small - highly vulnerable spot (equivalent to a power attack), and non-location dependent attack (light attack). Either the player risks missing shots on the weak spot, or they play safe and attack the larger target. Then the damage numbers get balanced between the two location (the smaller the critical spot is the larger ratio is between the two), followed by making sure the attack speed and DPS is line with the ideal maximum kills / min. and finally a comparison with melee combat to account for the increased risk close combat has over ranged. Of course that increased risk can be mitigated via other ways, to account for varying playstyles (ie. Melee could have AoE effects to support players that rush into the thick of enemies swinging wildly. Or Power attacks could stun allowing for a series of no-risk light attacks). In any case, the system can be easily done... perfecting it harder... but the game industry has been doing conflict resolution systems for close 50 years now, so really Fun Pimps don't need to reinvent the wheel. Just adapt an existing system and work out the kinks.

[JaxTeller718]

It's funny isn't it? Most streamers (no names, hah ha) of this game actually suck at it big time. Especially in the areas of general combat and progression efficiency. I stopped watching most of them some time ago because I was just ending up shouting "you idiot!" at the screen so often that my children thought I had lost it.

 

I vividly remember the weekend when streamers got A17 before we all did. I certainly watched a lot of them that weekend as I was dying to play the new build. I came away with the impression that A17 was rock solid HARD. I mean way harder than A16, right?....streamers were like "I am actually dying, and I never die!". I was actually scared going into A17 when I finally got it, even cranked the difficulty way down to 1 to begin with. What a joke. I later realized the streamers just generally sucked at combat.

 

Saddest part of it all is Pimps sometime LISTEN to those streamers as if they are providing actual feedback as it pertains to the overall game and not as it applies to their action oriented play style.

[LuckyStar]

Once a stable version comes out I'm modding in a whole set of tools/weapons that ignore power attack.

They are all going to resemble what was in A16.

 

It's not that I want more resources, I want the perception that I'm doing something.

 

Hitting once per two seconds is boring.

 

Hitting every second, even if it gives the same resources, is more fun.

I feel like I'm making progress.

[JCrook1028]

Saddest part of it all is Pimps sometime LISTEN to those streamers as if they are providing actual feedback as it pertains to the overall game and not as it applies to their action oriented play style.

 

Oh C'mon Jax. Surely you don't think such a wide blanket statement like that is at all valid right? So all streamers have this "action oriented play style" and none of their feedback is valid? Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed RH for a long time but methinks you're head is growing a bit too large here.