Out of Stamina... Out of Stamina... Out of Stamina...

[Kage848]

It's more like "Think inside the new box, because you're not allowed to have fun outside that box anymore."

 

This is a good point. I'm loving alpha 17 but it seems we are being more and more boxed into the way TFP want us to play. Hey it's there game but I always thought freedom to play the way you want was a good thing.

[Jedo]

Yeah, the stamina usage is a joke. Got some perks already, scored steelboots and gloves at the trader and can´t even run 100m with stamina 140.

 

Is not the problem here that you are wearing steel?

[RestInPieces]

Hey it's there game but I always thought freedom to play the way you want was a good thing.

 

It's called gating and it must happen in a way or another, with any game that is not a pure sandbox. No "player freedom" is being violated here. You can still do pretty much everything, just not everything during the early game.

[Kage848]

It's called gating and it must happen in a way or another, with any game that is not a pure sandbox. No "player freedom" is being violated here.

 

I disagree. My freedoms to mine, build a base and still be able to level at a reasonable pace is being violated lol. Cant wait for that sweet sweet mining xp boost.

[RestInPieces]

I disagree. My freedoms to mine, build a base and still be able to level at a reasonable pace is being violated lol. Cant wait for that sweet sweet mining xp boost.

 

That's not a freedom restriction, that's a matter of balance between choices and I am not saying it's not a valid concern. Hopefully, action xp and xp sources in general will make every action worthwhile when it comes to leveling.

[Benjiro]

Their opinion has been heard. Do the devs need to do like I do with my two-year-old child: "Child, I hear that you think stamina is not balanced. We are working on balance"?

 

Somehow, I don't think that will change anything.

 

The problem is, that the devs often do not listen.

 

I remember issues pointed out in A16, that still existed in A16.1, .2, .3, .4 ... And then the next 16 months.

 

My job is also software development and let me tell you, its easy to get complacent in your testing. I test A, B, C, again and again. Hey, everything works.

 

Then i get complaints from end users, how they did A, C, B and it totally sucked for them. My first response in my head is: "Well, don't do A, C, B, do A, B, C". And when they complain plenty, i take more serious look at it and fix it. But when i have plenty of other things on my plate, if people do not complain a lot, well, it simply gets put on the backlog of other issues. And years later that same issue can still be present.

 

Does this sound familiar?

 

And let me tell you, its easy to "forget" issues, especially when you develop software and test it in "your way". Its the same reason why i dislike a lot of elements of A17. You can tell the devs have been stuck the last 16 months, in only making the game like a washing machine. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. And some of our negative responses how we liked the old system are more or less ignored as "its a new system, suck it up" attitude.

 

I do not blame their attitude because you put your heart and soul into something, your mindset get very "fixed" and inflexible. They also are unwilling to change the system again ( those 16 months without any feedback on the new system did not help in making them more flexible ).

 

Some people love the new changes, others do not. But because of the developers attitude, we moved from a system that served us well for a lot of alphas, to a new system that they will simply not change anymore. Hell, they even made it close to impossible for modders to reimplement the old ways ( and that probably angers me the most! ).

 

It simply lost a lot of its character and charm during this simplification process.

 

So, sorry if some of use feel a bit butt hurt in this process but if i wanted Fallout 4, i will have bought fallout 4. In its current state, i will not have bought 7D2D because its not my style anymore.

[Ghostlight]

I don't think harvesting is slower than before. You just need to watch your stamina and take small pauses to always keep a small reserve just in case..

 

This alone makes it slower.

 

Also, just as bad as the Stamina issue early game, Stamina becomes a non-issue mid-game. With the right perks I can mine infinitely now. And that is with just 4/5 points in Tyrannosaurus and using Steel and constant heavy attack. I can't run infinitely but I have vehicles to handle that.

 

Some people love the new changes, others do not.

 

I truly believe that those who claim to like the new systems have simply not played far enough to realise the full and dreadful implications of it all. The new systems, almost without exception, are not conducive to deep and satisfying gameplay and meaningful progression. The people who are going to end up liking the new systems are those who want to put in no effort and get everything handed to them on a plate.

 

You want a mini-bike? Don't explore for the BP, just kill zombies and take the perk

You want better weapons? Don't explore for the parts, just kill zombies and take the perk to craft them

You want more damage? Don't explore for weapon parts, just kill zombies and take the perk to boost it

You want more health? Don't go out your way to cook top tier foods, just kill zombies and take the perk

And same for EVERYTHING else.

 

It simply lost a lot of its character and charm during this simplification process.

 

Yup, and also it lost all variety. We will ALL have mini-bikes at level 40. We will ALL have Forges at level 20. We will ALL have Steel at level whatever. We will all have the same things at the same level, every playthrough.

 

And for the record, around level 100, we will all have everything in the game there is to have, at the highest tier, including all the mods we'll ever need. I hit 100 around day 30. Go figure.

 

A17's systems and mechanics are for casuals who can't be arsed.

[Benjiro]

This is a good point. I'm loving alpha 17 but it seems we are being more and more boxed into the way TFP want us to play. Hey it's there game but I always thought freedom to play the way you want was a good thing.

 

You are boxed in Kage. Look at your recent videos. How many of us in A16 will have yelled: "Let the screamer live, we want more zombies". Nobody ... Now people are going crazy for those XP pinatas. Your playing how the developers want you to play. Explorer, do quests, do POIs...

 

Try playing the game more as a builder / survivalist without those XP pinatas, spikes eating up your XP and construction / harvesting not providing a lot of XP. Now that is hard mode.

 

Your like level 36 in one of the latest videos. Not even a high level and your surviving ferals like its nothing. Food means nothing to you anymore. Its bacon and eggs all the time ( wish the game actually had a vitamins state or some other states so you actually need to eat diverse food, instead of the most easy to make thing ).

 

Even your weapon choice is more limited. It feels like your stuck on that same Axe forever because there is no reason to upgrade to better axes or other melee weapons. They all do the same ( in the same category ... stone, iron, steel ) damage.

 

Its a better game for MP but a lot of its charm for SP has been stripped away, for the people who like to play more reserved, builders, survivalist and those that are not looking for the "shooter experience".

[Ghostlight]

Why is it better for MP? Out of interest?

 

And as for Screamers.....we have been running multiple Forges that were not smelting or producing just to get them to spawn for the EXP. And the person who shoots a Screamer will be berated till my throat is sore.

[meganoth]

Some people love the new changes, others do not. But because of the developers attitude, we moved from a system that served us well for a lot of alphas, to a new system that they will simply not change anymore. Hell, they even made it close to impossible for modders to reimplement the old ways ( and that probably angers me the most! ).

 

As a software developer you also know how difficult and time consuming it is to have to maintain backwards compatibility. There are people here who want to play a combination of A9 and A17. While probably only 20% of all lines of code in A17 are still unchanged from A9 (the number is a total guess, but surely you know it is in the right ballpark). Now consider how long it would take TFP to get to 1.0 if they had to keep all of that old code around and working correctly with the new stuff.

 

In my opinion the best way for players to get the old options would be to "campaign" for specific parameters be exposed in the xml so they can simulate whatever system they want with the new system. Sure, this is something only modders can do and most people will just have to hope for a modder to want something similar. But in A17 finally the groundwork was done to easily install mulitple mods alongside each other. Want feature A,B and C from A9? Install modlet A, B, and C. And hope they don't conflict ;-)

[Kage848]

You are boxed in Kage. Look at your recent videos. How many of us in A16 will have yelled: "Let the screamer live, we want more zombies". Nobody ... Now people are going crazy for those XP pinatas. Your playing how the developers want you to play. Explorer, do quests, do POIs...

 

Try playing the game more as a builder / survivalist without those XP pinatas, spikes eating up your XP and construction / harvesting not providing a lot of XP. Now that is hard mode.

 

Your like level 36 in one of the latest videos. Not even a high level and your surviving ferals like its nothing. Food means nothing to you anymore. Its bacon and eggs all the time ( wish the game actually had a vitamins state or some other states so you actually need to eat diverse food, instead of the most easy to make thing ).

 

Even your weapon choice is more limited. It feels like your stuck on that same Axe forever because there is no reason to upgrade to better axes or other melee weapons. They all do the same ( in the same category ... stone, iron, steel ) damage.

 

Its a better game for MP but a lot of its charm for SP has been stripped away, for the people who like to play more reserved, builders, survivalist and those that are not looking for the "shooter experience".

 

You make a lot of good point, except. I'm surviving ferals with no issues? Really? You have bee. Watching my videos right? I have died like 4 times in 15 days and how many times have I come close to death beyond that? Spoiler alert, it more than 5 now lol.

 

This has been the hardest this game has ever been. Like ever and I have been here since the beginning.

[Ghostlight]

It also becomes the easiest the game has ever been, once you hit a certain point and certain perks. What difficulty are you on? I had to drop A17 down to normal after being used to max difficulty in A16, but that was only early game and only for the horde night. In every other situation, A17 normal is far far too easy after roughly day 14??.

 

Also, at the level I am at, the Death's Door debuff is meaningless, so a controlled suicide will drop the GS a LOT - much more than it ever did in A16. If you feel the need that is.

[meganoth]

You want a mini-bike? Don't explore for the BP, just kill zombies and take the perk

You want better weapons? Don't explore for the parts, just kill zombies and take the perk to craft them

You want more damage? Don't explore for weapon parts, just kill zombies and take the perk to boost it

You want more health? Don't go out your way to cook top tier foods, just kill zombies and take the perk

And same for EVERYTHING else.

 

Somehow any discussion seems to degenerate finally to the discussion about zombie XP. As if MM didn't acknowledge already that zombie xp is too much and has to be decreased and put in line with the other activities. Why is it necessary to have to discuss an issue that is already known to change?

 

Sure, you are also making a point about getting everything from perks instead of scavenging. But harping on about a probably fixed balance issue makes your post look like grandfather talking about the battle of the ardennes again What can I say? "And the winds of change go on blowing, blowing, Gathering more and more leaves in its path, "

[iejen]

You want a mini-bike? Don't explore for the BP, just kill zombies and take the perk

You want better weapons? Don't explore for the parts, just kill zombies and take the perk to craft them

You want more damage? Don't explore for weapon parts, just kill zombies and take the perk to boost it

You want more health? Don't go out your way to cook top tier foods, just kill zombies and take the perk

And same for EVERYTHING else.

 

21:00 YAY! love this game, it's day 7 and I have every perk unlocked and a gamestage of 999.

 

00:00 DAMN! (...) this game, it's day 7 and I have no base, no resources for weapons, no food to regain my stamina and the blood moon horde already contained 25 cops, 10 radiated ferals and 5 zombie bears.

 

Your actions have consequences.

It's all fun and games untill a radiated cop owns your ass during bright daylight.

[WolfyBlah]

The thing is zombie XP is a minor balance issue. Changing it changes nothing in reality. More xp for breaking blocks? Il break blocks to level up, more for playing whack-a-zombie? Il do that.

 

GATING is a core mechanic issue that needs adressing ASAP, and there are several obvious solutions that should (and i would imagine alreadly are) be discussed elsewhere.

[Jedo]

The thing is zombie XP is a minor balance issue. Changing it changes nothing in reality. More xp for breaking blocks? Il break blocks to level up, more for playing whack-a-zombie? Il do that.

 

GATING is a core mechanic issue that needs adressing ASAP, and there are several obvious solutions that should (and i would imagine alreadly are) be discussed elsewhere.

 

This is you playing the metagame instead of the game.

 

Would it be better if things were gated behind a series of quests? These quests would require certain materials and certain skills and they would be timelocked. (There would be some randomness to the requirements.) At least then you would HAVE to play the game rather than the stupid "I want levels" game. Maybe an idle/incremental game is more your speed?

[meganoth]

The thing is zombie XP is a minor balance issue.

 

Exactly. That is why I don't want to discuss this anymore as it hinders any discussion of issues that still may be (or not be) real problems.

 

Changing it changes nothing in reality. More xp for breaking blocks? Il break blocks to level up, more for playing whack-a-zombie? Il do that.

 

GATING is a core mechanic issue that needs adressing ASAP, and there are several obvious solutions that should (and i would imagine alreadly are) be discussed elsewhere.

 

I see the problem of meta-gaming, (EDIT: Removed invalid argument) I don't like many of the proposed solutions. I also think balanced xp DOES help a lot with meta-gaming. If every way to get xp is equally viable then even an XP-whore will use secondary reasons to choose his actions. For example whether he needs iron ore or more food or a better weapon. Voila, he plays the game again.

[Zadwanaa]

It also becomes the easiest the game has ever been, once you hit a certain point and certain perks. What difficulty are you on? I had to drop A17 down to normal after being used to max difficulty in A16, but that was only early game and only for the horde night. In every other situation, A17 normal is far far too easy after roughly day 14??.

 

Also, at the level I am at, the Death's Door debuff is meaningless, so a controlled suicide will drop the GS a LOT - much more than it ever did in A16. If you feel the need that is.

 

Nope, sorry. Having a minibike doesnt make the game hard.

 

By you farming screamers for XP sounds like you loved the quick leveling... so in A16, you were done with the game WELL before lv 100. By the end of the first week, you must have had a full cemented base that no zombies in your current GS couldve broken through. Steel by the 2nd week (at the latest). Zombies were a joke at that point. Borderline insulting.

 

The extremist point of view is a terrible one.

 

The way some people talk about A17 reminds me of politics. The politician i agree with is a saint! the one I oppose is hitler!

 

Go play A16 again and realize how fast you ripped through early & mid game content.

 

Also, at the level I am at, the Death's Door debuff is meaningless, so a controlled suicide will drop the GS a LOT - much more than it ever did in A16. If you feel the need that is.

 

Also, why would anyone wanna lower their GS in A16. It was slow enough to get any challenging zombies for how fast the base was built + Steel arrows / bolts.

 

 

A17 has issues. Nothing nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Has pros & cons.

[Snowydeath]

Exactly. That is why I don't want to discuss this anymore as it hinders any discussion of issues that still may be (or not be) real problems.

 

 

 

I see the problem of meta-gaming, (EDIT: Removed invalid argument)

 

I don't know why level gating is such an issue to these people. it happens in most good RPGs (The elder scrolls and even The Witcher series). Hell I level up so fast I hardly notice it to be honest. Maybe cause I'm just good at the game? I'm good at survivals so I thoroughly enjoy the new update (even with its minor issues)

[TheProphet]

Game is dead until you can properly mine underground again.

[Snowydeath]

Game is dead until you can properly mine underground again.

 

Elaborate please

[Zadwanaa]

Have you tried mining underground but not like 2 blocks below the surface? Try 10 - 15 blocks below the surface?

[meganoth]

Have you tried mining underground but not like 2 blocks below the surface? Try 10 - 15 blocks below the surface?

 

If I may enhance this statement, latest info (i.e. I heard it from a friend who heard it...) is 36 block below surface no zombie outside horde night will ever hear you scream or dig or explode mines. It is perfectly safe there.

 

At least as long zombies can't also spawn in the underground

 

And I think it was FileMachete who even tried out what happens on the first horde night on bedrock and the zombies didn't even reach him/her down there. They were not far off, but it is a viable way for a miner to "skip" the first horde night. If you have more than one **separate** tunnel down there you might even use that strategy on further horde nights by switching tunnels in the middle of the night (I would call it the "mad dash" strategy )

[SgtThompson]

I guess what I'm getting at is how the new stamina doesn't feel like something I'm managing in a fun way. There are plenty of games that keep you busy managing various things, but this just feels more limiting than engaging.

 

It feels more like being in heavy traffic. You're playing the game, you have things you want to get done, but first you have to stop. And then you go to do something else, and then you have to stop. It's relentless, and I don't see how this makes the game more enjoyable.

 

Honestly, I'd rather have the default movement speed decently quick (right now it's walking speed) and have a perk to make sprint better. Maybe sprint faster / for longer or something to that degree. I think loading yourself up too much should make slower as it already does. But, I don't think the game should constantly make you stop and wait for the bar to fill up.

[sadpickle]

Mining is pretty painful. You need Tyrannosaurus to reduce the stamina drain from mining. The Cardio perk increases stamina regen while sprinting, which lets you sprint for longer before resting.