gamestage and progression, punative to crafters for no reason

[Jedo]

Clearly that is NOT your playstyle since you didnt craft your own tools, you looted them.

 

Have you ever killed a zombie? If you have, you must be a fighter instead of a builder/crafter.

 

See how flawed your logic is? (I'm guessing you won't.)

[WolfyBlah]

Have you ever killed a zombie? If you have, you must be a fighter instead of a builder/crafter.

 

See how flawed your logic is? (I'm guessing you won't.)

 

My logic is not flawed in the slightest, you did not craft your tools (as it stands now its basicly impossible to do so) you had to loot extensively to get those items (unless you found them all in 1 container in whichbcase congrats on being lucky).

 

So in your 'builder/crafter' play style what did you actualy build/craft?

 

This is getting off topic regardless, the point im making is that those who want to craft tools have a completely diffrent experiance to those who find them, lets change up the example to a steel fireaxe, one player loots one on day one, another crafts one on day 60+?

 

Its completely lobsided, the player who wants to craft his steel axe has to play for hours and hours on end with the game spawning ever tougher zombies meanwhile the lucky looter person is on base game difficulty?

 

Crafting is supposed to be a fundamental part of the game but right now it is so heavily level locked (and by extension punished) that its just not an option.

 

How would people feel if items you cannot craft are removed from the loot pool? Eg you cant find steel tools as loot until you can make steel tools. Not a great solution IMO but at least its *somthing*.

[Jedo]

I always begin by finding a POI which I can fortify early on (been doing this for a few alphas), and I loot the surrounding area so that I have food. In that looting, I might find useful stuff that I don't have to craft on my own. That's usually my first week, and I mine/craft at night in the fortified POI. As I get materials, I build a big base nearby. No sense hanging out in the open before it's usable, hence the POI.

 

And your logic will continue to be flawed if you think in binaries and absolutes. Just saying.

[WolfyBlah]

I always begin by finding a POI which I can fortify early on (been doing this for a few alphas), and I loot the surrounding area so that I have food. In that looting, I might find useful stuff that I don't have to craft on my own. That's usually my first week, and I mine/craft at night in the fortified POI. As I get materials, I build a big base nearby. No sense hanging out in the open before it's usable, hence the POI.

 

And your logic will continue to be flawed if you think in binaries and absolutes. Just saying.

 

So you always begin by fortifying a POI, i do not consider that to be a 'builder/crafter'. To me that means someone who builds there own structure straight away, who crafts items to help them survive.

 

Infact what you have described makes me this of a looter playstyle more than anything

 

In previous alphas it was possible to craft your own tools to a better quality than you can realistically find as loot currently you cannot craft them at all due to arbitrary level locks

[Doctor3D]

 

Your solution is not very helpful, i could also just open the creative menu and give myself the tools, or edit the XMLs or any number of other 'solutions' but thats not the point of this exercise, the point is for the developers to hopefully see that thier current implementation of the perk system is forcing one playstyle over another.

 

 

That is much different than what I suggested. But, sure you could do that as well..Why not. When playing Alpha games, you're often gonna have to get a bit creative in getting the game to play like you want. That's just the nature of it. Nothing is ever balanced very well. That's just how it is.

 

The fact that this game is as fun as it is even when it's in a constant flux of change and updates is testament to something. Most early access games I play are just things I've bought to support them - but only desire to play them maybe a few hours after each update to see the progress.

 

I somewhat agree with your point though - but just don't think it was intentional. But, you're 100% right in that the game is currently more geared to just a shut-em-up and the building and crafting is definitely a slower progression. You can still do all that, it's just that it takes much longer to get anywhere. But even the 'shoot-em-up' is imbalanced in itself - as you get so overpowered that by the time you're truly base-building - you can already survive a lot of horde night just running around blasting them.

 

We survived a relatively high gamestage horde just running around in the Navezgane hospital - going from room to room shooting sleepers and the blood moon hordes coming in. There was three of us on different floors most of the time just rampaging through there like it was nothing. No sense for a base. The game is just not balanced, yet. Just have to have patience.

[WolfyBlah]

People seem to be under the impression that people want everything from day1 when that isnt the case at all, people (in this case me) want steel tools ASAP because of the ♥♥♥♥tarded harvest system where you get ludicrous ammounts more from resource harvesting based on tool type/perks

 

For me who likes to build... i wont do it with gimped tools because it is TEDIOUS, building in this game is slow to begin with, adding unmanageable stamina together with weak tools and having no acess to recipes does not make for fun experiance.

[Katitof]

People seem to be under the impression that people want everything from day1 when that isnt the case at all, people (in this case me) want steel tools ASAP because of the ♥♥♥♥tarded harvest system where you get ludicrous ammounts more from resource harvesting based on tool type/perks

 

For me who likes to build... i wont do it with gimped tools because it is TEDIOUS, building in this game is slow to begin with, adding unmanageable stamina together with weak tools and having no acess to recipes does not make for fun experiance.

 

And.... why do you need early crafting ability of them again?

Traders are a thing and that stuff isn't uncommon when it comes to loot.

 

You are as limited as you limit your options yourself in A17, I know, its mind blowing, but tools from traders work just as fine.

[WolfyBlah]

That is much different than what I suggested. But, sure you could do that as well..Why not. When playing Alpha games, you're often gonna have to get a bit creative in getting the game to play like you want. That's just the nature of it. Nothing is ever balanced very well. That's just how it is.

 

The fact that this game is as fun as it is even when it's in a constant flux of change and updates is testament to something. Most early access games I play are just things I've bought to support them - but only desire to play them maybe a few hours after each update to see the progress.

 

I somewhat agree with your point though - but just don't think it was intentional. But, you're 100% right in that the game is currently more geared to just a shut-em-up and the building and crafting is definitely a slower progression. You can still do all that, it's just that it takes much longer to get anywhere. But even the 'shoot-em-up' is imbalanced in itself - as you get so overpowered that by the time you're truly base-building - you can already survive a lot of horde night just running around blasting them.

 

We survived a relatively high gamestage horde just running around in the Navezgane hospital - going from room to room shooting sleepers and the blood moon hordes coming in. There was three of us on different floors most of the time just rampaging through there like it was nothing. No sense for a base. The game is just not balanced, yet. Just have to have patience.

 

Im truely glad you are enjoying the game as it developes, its my own personal thing that the fun of the game has dimished with each alpha (mostly because of systems designed to draw out the early game as long as possible with no actual new content added)

 

Unfortunately this went beyond a balance issue a long time ago for me as core gameplay systems have changed dramticly turning this into a game i just dont want to play, i get that the developers are massive fallout fans but that dosent mean everybody who plays 7days is, personally find the fallout games completely horrible to try and play... so i dont

[WolfyBlah]

And.... why do you need early crafting ability of them again?

Traders are a thing and that stuff isn't uncommon when it comes to loot.

 

You are as limited as you limit your options yourself in A17, I know, its mind blowing, but tools from traders work just as fine.

 

Because this is a crafting game... i want to be able to craft things in a crafting game, i know, its mind blowing.

 

Traders (and how much they have been hamfisted into the game) are not a valid replacement for the abilty to craft a tool. Looting is not a valid replacement for the abilty to craft a tool.

 

This entire thread has been about how the crafting elements of the game have been taken hostage to be replaced with 'just get lucky with loot or get lucky with traders' I dont want to rely on luck... i want to be able to craft the tools i need to enjoy the game without an asinine grind attached.

 

You know you are right, tools looted or bourght from the trader work just fine... so why cant i craft them? Theres no reason for the abilty to craft them to be so heavily punished while trading or looting them isnt.

 

Rember when 7d2d was the 'survival horde crafting game'

Where are we now? 'The trading looting survival and maybe some crafting in 50hours game'? :/

[Jedo]

So you always begin by fortifying a POI, i do not consider that to be a 'builder/crafter'. To me that means someone who builds there own structure straight away, who crafts items to help them survive.

 

Infact what you have described makes me this of a looter playstyle more than anything

 

In previous alphas it was possible to craft your own tools to a better quality than you can realistically find as loot currently you cannot craft them at all due to arbitrary level locks

 

Your way of seeing things makes no sense. Just because I loot in the first week (because, you know, you don't start with anything) doesn't make me a "looter." Again, if you kill any zombies ever, you must be a fighter.

 

If you are going to have only the narrowest definitions of things, you could call me a "pragmatic builder." I know that I can't build great stuff right out of the gate, so I supplement just a bit. I usually have a working base up before the second horde night. Once I can craft my own things, I do that (which usually is steel tools unless I got super lucky).

 

People seem to be under the impression that people want everything from day1 when that isnt the case at all, people (in this case me) want steel tools ASAP because of the ♥♥♥♥tarded harvest system where you get ludicrous ammounts more from resource harvesting based on tool type/perks

 

For me who likes to build... i wont do it with gimped tools because it is TEDIOUS, building in this game is slow to begin with, adding unmanageable stamina together with weak tools and having no acess to recipes does not make for fun experiance.

 

This is hilarious. "I don't want everything day1...just the most advanced tools which will allow me to get everything else." Riiiiight.

 

I mean, I want steel tools because they make life easier, but being a survival game, I know that I will have to work for them. Since I don't start with them, I will have to do some tedious mining and building. That's part of the game.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Because this is a crafting game... i want to be able to craft things in a crafting game, i know, its mind blowing.

 

No, it's a survival game with crafting elements. Minecraft is a crafting game. I suggest you go play that.

[SnowDog1942]

This is hilarious. "I don't want everything day1...just the most advanced tools which will allow me to get everything else." Riiiiight.

 

LOL nice... that is what he was saying to... that's great.

 

I mean.. I get where he is coming from. I'm a fighter and the only thing I ask for on Day 1 is the best possible guns and all mods for them. I know the rest of it will take some time.

[WolfyBlah]

Your way of seeing things makes no sense. Just because I loot in the first week (because, you know, you don't start with anything) doesn't make me a "looter." Again, if you kill any zombies ever, you must be a fighter.

 

If you are going to have only the narrowest definitions of things, you could call me a "pragmatic builder." I know that I can't build great stuff right out of the gate, so I supplement just a bit. I usually have a working base up before the second horde night. Once I can craft my own things, I do that (which usually is steel tools unless I got super lucky).

 

This is hilarious. "I don't want everything day1...just the most advanced tools which will allow me to get everything else." Riiiiight.

 

I mean, I want steel tools because they make life easier, but being a survival game, I know that I will have to work for them. Since I don't start with them, I will have to do some tedious mining and building. That's part of the game.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

No, it's a survival game with crafting elements. Minecraft is a crafting game. I suggest you go play that.

 

The only none tedious tools in the game (comming from someone who played before steel tier items where even a thing (they are probably actualy less powerful than the old iron tools where)) is not 'everything in the game' its 3 or so items that make the game less tedious and grindy

[fazi]

Please check yor logic and assumptions, seems like a lot of people (including the developers) rarely play beyond the point they 'have everything' because they are bored/the game is over? My games do not end when i reach what you would consider endgame, that is when my game STARTS because im done with the level gates and assosiated crap. The 'early game' is the worst part of playing 7days for me (at least since the implementation of skills, item quality, ect)

 

Id say the game in this alpha is a hell of a lot worse than previous in terms of the ammount of fun i personaly draw from the game, stretching out the 'you suck' part of the game just means its all the longer until the fun part of the game actualy begins.

 

Im not into cheap deaths and scares caused by bad mechanics and systems (3D sound hasnt worked correctly on and off between alphas and even when the 3d elements did work some sounds just do not play when they are supposed to.)

We all play beyond :having everything:

I use to build very large bases, roads etc, and that is still possible, later in game.

Entering a POI, that is to high for your current level, your current weapons and dying is something normal.Let's say, you only like the crafting/building part of this game, that is still possible, it just takes longer.Even making invincible bases is still possible, underground bases are still possible, nothing have been taken away from the game, it just take longer to reach it.

Mae be you like to stay in your base crafting and ignoring the zombies hitting your walls, but i like to get out and defend the wall.I like to be in a mine and listen for zombies. Wanna play the same A16 story with invincible bases , it is still possible:)

[WolfyBlah]

The new modding system is a topic for another thread that id rather not get into tonight, for now i will say this about it:

 

Its a system that has potential however in its current half finished sloppy state adds nothing to my gameplay

Iv only seen one 'mod' to fill one slot on any given tool, the 'ergonmic grip'.

 

And again these items are heavily locked off from being able to craft them, infact if i understand correctly you need to loot a schematic (single use) to craft them.... so now i have to loot a ♥♥♥♥ ton before my tools dont suck as well as leveling up a million times to be able to craft the tools in the first place...

 

Now if mods could be a learned perk (why the hell not, everything else is) and we could specialize (the whole idea behind perks, no?) So i could craft them at a reasonable level...

[WolfyBlah]

We all play beyond :having everything:

I use to build very large bases, roads etc, and that is still possible, later in game.

Entering a POI, that is to high for your current level, your current weapons and dying is something normal.Let's say, you only like the crafting/building part of this game, that is still possible, it just takes longer.Even making invincible bases is still possible, underground bases are still possible, nothing have been taken away from the game, it just take longer to reach it.

Mae be you like to stay in your base crafting and ignoring the zombies hitting your walls, but i like to get out and defend the wall.I like to be in a mine and listen for zombies. Wanna play the same A16 story with invincible bases , it is still possible:)

 

Sure its still possible to build later in the game... at a quater of the speed we could on early alphas...

 

That aside bases in a16 where never invicible (beyond abusing ai flaws ect) i had many times where hordes broke through defenses and this is a core aspect of the game for me... i dont build bases the AI cant overcome

The reason people felt bases were invicble in a16 was the crappy gamestage system and the hordes being overall lackluster.

gamestage decides what spawns and this has caused nothing but lame 7th day hordes since it was implemented.

 

And no, we dont *all* play beyond the point we have everything, many players dont and several times staff have stated in posts on these forums that they themseleves usualy dont.

 

 

As far as this obession with levels being super important to wether you can enter a POI or not... thats never been the case in previous alphas and a strict RPG like system like that kills any joy in looting for me

... if we have never seen xyz poi before and theres no floating text above it saying 'level 100'... how the hell are we supposed to know what us too high level or not?

[HerrKingsley]

LOL nice... that is what he was saying to... that's great.

 

I mean.. I get where he is coming from. I'm a fighter and the only thing I ask for on Day 1 is the best possible guns and all mods for them. I know the rest of it will take some time.

 

Have you noticed that no one is complaining about gates on workbench or cement mixer?.. so that analogy..

[HerrKingsley]

As far as this obession with levels being super important to wether you can enter a POI or not... thats never been the case in previous alphas and a strict RPG like system like that kills any joy in looting for me

... if we have never seen xyz poi before and theres no floating text above it saying 'level 100'... how the hell are we supposed to know what us too high level or not?

 

I can think of numerous ways.

One is utilizing the biomes. Harsh climate naturally keep low leveled players away since they don't have the gear to survive.

 

Secondly: POI themes

Military camp: "I bet they have armor on, better stay away"

Gyms:"Probably some big guys in there"

Skyscraper: "Wow that one must have a ton of zombies in there"

Big cities: "That must be packed with all kind of nasty things"

 

And to that you could add sound and ambient light. "Sounds like something terrifying in there... "

[WolfyBlah]

Have you noticed that no one is complaining about gates on workbench or cement mixer?.. so that analogy..

 

I think most people who are having such an issue with the level gates either stopped playing, edited the xmls or think its reasonable to have those items locked away for a bit. I personally land somewhere in the middle of the last 2... its reasonable to have those items locked away a little, just not beyond the hours upon hours of grind the developers seem to think is a good idea.

[fazi]

Because this is a crafting game... i want to be able to craft things in a crafting game, i know, its mind blowing.

 

Traders (and how much they have been hamfisted into the game) are not a valid replacement for the abilty to craft a tool. Looting is not a valid replacement for the abilty to craft a tool.

 

This entire thread has been about how the crafting elements of the game have been taken hostage to be replaced with 'just get lucky with loot or get lucky with traders' I dont want to rely on luck... i want to be able to craft the tools i need to enjoy the game without an asinine grind attached.

 

You know you are right, tools looted or bourght from the trader work just fine... so why cant i craft them? Theres no reason for the abilty to craft them to be so heavily punished while trading or looting them isnt.

 

Rember when 7d2d was the 'survival horde crafting game'

Where are we now? 'The trading looting survival and maybe some crafting in 50hours game'? :/

survival horde crafting game remember this!

You can easily reach lvl 20 and have iron tools in 4-5 hours ingame. I'm not buying tools from traders, i lvl up then craft my own.If im lucky ill loot something and find one, if no, ill use the stone axe untill lvl 20. I wont have a solid base by day 7, not even by day 14, but i will adapt a poi.The game is not limiting you, you are, by seeing only one option, only one way. OFC, balance is not perfect yet, you need to be able to level in more than one way, but is Early experimental release, just have patience. A17 is by far the best release so far!Just accept the changes...the same way you accepted the removal of spam crafting for example...even the fact that you are still here posting, means that you still enjoy the game:)

[fazi]

Sure its still possible to build later in the game... at a quater of the speed we could on early alphas...

 

That aside bases in a16 where never invicible (beyond abusing ai flaws ect) i had many times where hordes broke through defenses and this is a core aspect of the game for me... i dont build bases the AI cant overcome

The reason people felt bases were invicble in a16 was the crappy gamestage system and the hordes being overall lackluster.

gamestage decides what spawns and this has caused nothing but lame 7th day hordes since it was implemented.

 

And no, we dont *all* play beyond the point we have everything, many players dont and several times staff have stated in posts on these forums that they themseleves usualy dont.

 

 

As far as this obession with levels being super important to wether you can enter a POI or not... thats never been the case in previous alphas and a strict RPG like system like that kills any joy in looting for me

... if we have never seen xyz poi before and theres no floating text above it saying 'level 100'... how the hell are we supposed to know what us too high level or not?

 

Any base with steel/concrete walls and 3 rows of steel spikes was practically invincible , and you had that by day 30...What is the point of having super big and rewarding poi's if you can just walk in and take what you need, when you need?

[HerrKingsley]

@ WolyBlah Agreed.

Even though I do not support level gates, im all for gates. But i like mine to be dynamic and based on my personal skill not my characters.

[babspsol]

Just stop and think for a second, you have it the wrong way around and so does 99% of the player base which is why they are changing XP in the next build because builders like me are taking advantage of this loophole.

 

The game punishes people who like combat and rewards builders.

 

You get a low amount of XP for not killing anything which means you can keep your gamescore very low and build at your leisure knowing that the bloodmoon horde will pose very little danger. Iron tools & weapons which are easily looted outside of POI's can be repaired without a perk. Finding a forge (traders or gas station) means you can craft iron spikes, iron bars, truss frames and all other types of iron, again without needing perks.

 

Conversely the player who likes combat and clearing POI's is "rewarded" with higher XP. That player has a high gamescore, very high level, but he/she has been so busy power levelling they haven't build much to help with the base defence.....and then they come on these forums and cry that it is "impossible" to defend your base or they post their cheese AI exploiting base designs thinking they are awesome because their power levelling has "rewarded" them with a very strong BM horde.

 

This is my base after 21 day BM (singleplayer, default settings), I am level 11. I didn't even use my guns, just wiped them with my compound bow. Like I said though, they are buffing non combat XP because people just cried like a bunch of sheep without thinking that builders had it good in A17, REAL good. GG.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25953[/ATTACH]

[PPanda0421]

survival horde crafting game remember this!

You can easily reach lvl 20 and have iron tools in 4-5 hours ingame. I'm not buying tools from traders, i lvl up then craft my own.If im lucky ill loot something and find one, if no, ill use the stone axe untill lvl 20. I wont have a solid base by day 7, not even by day 14, but i will adapt a poi.The game is not limiting you, you are, by seeing only one option, only one way. OFC, balance is not perfect yet, you need to be able to level in more than one way, but is Early experimental release, just have patience. A17 is by far the best release so far!Just accept the changes...the same way you accepted the removal of spam crafting for example...even the fact that you are still here posting, means that you still enjoy the game:)

 

Show us proof that you can reach level 20 in 4-5 hours in game please. Play on SP, use default setting and don't change to longer days or modify the game in any way including changing XML files. Otherwise, I smell BS.

 

No A17 IS NOT by far the best release. You still don't get it. We're FORCED to follow a specific route (eg. kill 100s of zombies to get to level 20/30/40, etc) just so we can do what we want to do. Why should I kill 100+ zombies in order to build a proper base?

 

"survival horde crafting game" should be labeled "survival horde crafting-after-you've-killed-100s-of-zombies game"

 

If I want to mainly build but fight zombies as a side thing, allow me to do so. Don't force me to grind those levels (by killing) just to do the things I want to.

 

You mentioned in an earlier post that someone should disable zombies. Well that proves our point. If someone disables zombies, how are they going to level/gain skills? Anything other than killing zombies at this point in the game nets pitiful experience. The grind will be even MUCH worse than it is now. So the best solution is provide alternatives to gaining exp. If I want to level by mining, LET ME. If I want to level by building, LET ME!

 

TFP has already mentioned they're going to increase the XP for actions other than zombie-killing. Hopefully they'll reduce or level gates/requirements as well.

[Jedo]

Why should I kill 100+ zombies in order to build a proper base?

 

The post above yours shows that you don't have to do that.

[sadpickle]

Iron tools & weapons which are easily looted outside of POI's

I'd love to hear what loot containers outside of POIs spawn tools and weapons. Only the odd sports bag, backpack or car ever seem to have them. The lion's share of loot containers like Working Stiffs and Shotgun Messiah are inside the POI dungeons.