Fun, and how people define such, and a17

[LordoftheMoo]

There have been a lot of discussions, arguments, etc. on here about how a17 plays. Is this viable, is that still valid, is some other thing a bug or "the future". I think one thing that's getting lost is "how does a person define 'Fun' "? I think as the exp build progresses toward a stable, and towards an a18 in the future, how "fun" the game is need to be monitored because in the end that is its true measure of success. How fun it is to those who play it. This is true of all games, board games, card games, video games... each has to be fun in some way or else people will dislike it and not play it. The tough part is that how people define fun is varies from person to person.

 

In context, some people like a grind-y fps style game and don't think a17e goes far enough. Others are upset that it's impossible to build a defensive building that can fully survive a horde night with little damage, as was possible in a16. Some people think the level of challenge and combat are perfect, and want to see only slight refinements to a17. For me, I define fun in this context as "a cross between entertaining activity, and challenge, and creativity" (the last mostly around building because building can be fun just in itself). How does my definition work into a17? That's my problem, now, as I don't know anymore.

 

As some examples example of why I'm struggling to find fun in a17, I started a new b208 game Scavenger difficulty (because I'm still trying to feel out the huge amount of deep changes), and spent the first part of day 1 collecting things like wood, a cooking pot from a nearby cabin, etc. Basic stuff. But I've noticed that things move slower now. Not progression, but actual things like "using a stone axe for construction is slower now than a16". This seems to be intentional, though I don't know the reason. Perhaps to just slow down some progression? Definitely makes you feel like you're not making as much progress when performing tasks, that the game is almost lagging on you (though it's not actual lag of any kind).

 

Regarding stamina, well slowing player activity down using stamina drain, that was in a16. That's fine. The more you do, the more tired you are. You need to stop and rest. Got it. However, having stamina decay both from activity and from just time passing (hunger is a factor of time), slows the game down and makes the early levels just tedious. Remember, getting the perks to improve that requires that the early game be played - "you must suffer through the pain to appreciate the slow eventual reward" doesn't feel like it's very fun. It starts to feel by the second or third time through that the early game is punishment for an eventual "Easy ride" (never made it to that point in a17, this far, but I'll believe those here that it's quite easy once you have around 100 points in). I can see making things more of a chore and challenge in the early game, because that's the stick to the carrot! But something's off, and for me the fun is drained from early game play. It's no longer a challenge, it's just a job.

 

A little later in that same game (mid-afternoon, day 1 still), I then trucked off the 2.1km to the vendor to complete the last newbie quest. I got there at about 20:00, and wandered outside not long after. Just up the road was another building, another vendor. Yay! I went up there, and went inside. Now it's about 21:00, and getting dark. Shadows in the game are VERY dark now - almost pitch black, to the point of being an issue IMO, but whatever. After checking that vendor, I went to leave. It's 21:15 in game. I open the garage door and a zombie bear, silently waiting just outside the door, mauls me. No warning. The bear wasn't trying to get in, as the zeds do, banging away. It was literally sitting up against the door such that when I opened it, I thought something had gone wrong as the outside didn't become visible. It wasn't until after the thing hit me that it made any noise.

 

Having one of the toughest enemies in game curb stomp you under 18 in-game hours into the first day, where you can do nothing (and cannot even see it because their texture turns near black in shadow), well, that's not fun. That's not challenge. That's just "here, die now". There is absolutely zero a level 2 player on day 1 can do in that situation. There was nowhere to run - this was the entryway into the Jen vendor complex, and the bear blocked the entire door anyways. Remember, this was on Scavenger, so there is no "lower difficulty" to drop to. I paused the game around 20hp, stared at the screen for a minute, and exited the game. I wasn't having fun.

 

I *want* to like a17. I have a lot of issues with some of the mechanic implementations (like perks being king, etc.) but I want to try to see this game be fun. This is an experimental build, so things are being tested mostly for functionality, but also to try to work out any issues with the new systems that weren't visible in internal testing. But some kind of balance is off in the game, and posts seem to imply that TFP want the game to play this way. I'm not sure what, though I think the gamestage calculation and resulting zed table contents is a large part of it. I guess it just feels that, instead of everything in the game trying to kill me, the game *itself* is trying to kill me. And that to me just isn't fun. There isn't challenge in that, when the game puts things in your way that you cannot overcome even with luck and skill. There has to be SOME chance for it to be "a challenge". If there isn't, then it's something else, instead.

 

So, what do the rest of you define as "fun" and "challenge"? Does a17 fit it (I think we can all agree that once you learned the system, a16 had little challenge past like day 3 or 4)? I've seen a lot of posts on individual things within a17, but I think it would be interesting to see how people define "fun in a game" and then compare it to a17 as a whole, and not on the individual mechanic level.

[vonstorm]

Not to belabor the point, but a large toggling system in options would go a lot further in balance preferences than keep adjusting details in the core game. Each player or server can dial in on what their game style prefers.

[babspsol]

Fun for me is in beating the horde and it is made all the more satisfying when so much of the community thinks doing so is "impossible" and many more only seem to be able to do it by exploiting the AI behaviour or using some beefy POI that the horde can't chew through before dawn.

 

This is the first alpha build since I started playing in A9 that I don't know if I will survive horde night and that makes a game I previously called "loot container simulator" incredibly fun again.

[grieferbastard]

Not to belabor the point, but a large toggling system in options would go a lot further in balance preferences than keep adjusting details in the core game. Each player or server can dial in on what their game style prefers.

 

Yep. Going to upvote this via quote and saying 'yes, yes please'.

[grieferbastard]

Fun for me is in beating the horde and it is made all the more satisfying when so much of the community thinks doing so is "impossible" and many more only seem to be able to do it by exploiting the AI behaviour or using some beefy POI that the horde can't chew through before dawn.

 

This is the first alpha build since I started playing in A9 that I don't know if I will survive horde night and that makes a game I previously called "loot container simulator" incredibly fun again.

 

 

Pretty much. I learned to get really, really good with the fire axe and be super, super cautious. I take an iron door and 2 barbwires into POIs. You see trouble, run like hell and drop a door, throw up some barbed wire and then ready yourself for when they beat through it. Often it's just about giving yourself time and positioning.

 

However I absolutely agree that sometimes it just throws up stuff you can't beat and can't even run away from. That's no fun and sorta pointless, especially early on.

 

Also, FFS, speed up the use of tools. At every stage. The slow, slow, slow slapping away at stuff with feeble tools and tepid, lazy swings of tools just saps the fun of the game for me. 16+ hits? Spending 2 or 3 RL minutes just.... watching while I whack on s safe? At level 120 with steel tools and all the perks?

 

Nope. It's a terrible game experience and makes me want to install mods. There's 0 value in it, 0 payoff. It just makes me not mine or really try to do any of the awesome stuff the games capable of for altering the environment.

[Wigbert]

Not to belabor the point, but a large toggling system in options would go a lot further in balance preferences than keep adjusting details in the core game. Each player or server can dial in on what their game style prefers.

 

As has been said before, a large toggling system while in Experimental would make it next to impossible to troubleshoot bugs.

Toggling system would have to come after the game is stable.

 

I'm having lots of fun with A17 but don't get too attached to your map while things are being worked on.

[TheMouldyCheese]

Not to belabor the point, but a large toggling system in options would go a lot further in balance preferences than keep adjusting details in the core game. Each player or server can dial in on what their game style prefers.

 

 

Absolutely this. More options are needed.

 

I almost had a similar thing happen to me.

So I was getting ready to loot a building, I woke up a few sleepers and drew them out of the building and bashed their heads in. Had a check around me before heading inside, nothing nearby. So dived into my inventory quickly to scrap/dump a couple of items.

Suddenly RAAARGH! Something swiped me, my screen went red, my underwear went brown. I came out of my inventory and there was a huge bear sat next to me. Fortunately, i managed to get a gun out and just fire wildly at it. This seemed to bug the bear out and it didnt swipe me anymore.

 

I feel like it was a bit of an FU moment, there is no way that bear was there before I went into my inventory, and I probably would have been pretty pissed if he'd finished me off.

[Snowydeath]

Pretty much. I learned to get really, really good with the fire axe and be super, super cautious. I take an iron door and 2 barbwires into POIs. You see trouble, run like hell and drop a door, throw up some barbed wire and then ready yourself for when they beat through it. Often it's just about giving yourself time and positioning.

 

However I absolutely agree that sometimes it just throws up stuff you can't beat and can't even run away from. That's no fun and sorta pointless, especially early on.

 

Also, FFS, speed up the use of tools. At every stage. The slow, slow, slow slapping away at stuff with feeble tools and tepid, lazy swings of tools just saps the fun of the game for me. 16+ hits? Spending 2 or 3 RL minutes just.... watching while I whack on s safe? At level 120 with steel tools and all the perks?

 

Nope. It's a terrible game experience and makes me want to install mods. There's 0 value in it, 0 payoff. It just makes me not mine or really try to do any of the awesome stuff the games capable of for altering the environment.

 

At max stats and best tools with mods it doesn’t take more than a minute to break open a safe lmao. All I see are people bitching because they aren’t learning the game they’re playing the old way. Sickens me to see people who call themselves gamers but refuse to adapt.

[Roland]

At max stats and best tools with mods it doesn’t take more than a minute to break open a safe lmao. All I see are people bitching because they aren’t learning the game they’re playing the old way. Sickens me to see people who call themselves gamers but refuse to adapt.

 

There was a negative video review made of the game three or so years ago back when we had the hub city full of dogs and cops. The reviewer called 7 Days to Die “impossible” to play. To prove how impossible the game was he showed his own game footage of him on day 1 naked and alone running into the hub city. He then did it three more times trying to retrieve his pack—of course dying each time.

 

On the one hand we have gamers asking for TFP to please design places and things that are too difficult for an early level player to handle and that they should need to wait and come back after their progression reaches a point where they can do it. TFP complies and then the other hand drops where we then get complaints and rants that you can’t run into a hub city on day 1 naked. It takes too long to break open a safe with this tier one stone axe! Dungeon POIs have Ferals on Day 1 how am I expected to deal with that?!

[beHypE]

I agree with the essence of your post Roland, but if what you quoted is true (1 minute with max stats and the best tools with mods), then it's still WAY too long. At that point in the game I expect nothing short of a quick picklock in 5 seconds, but since we don't have that feature, you should just absolutely shred the safe in seconds.

 

Now obviously I totally agree gunsafes should feel like a time consuming chore to open with a stone axe.

[Snowydeath]

There was a negative video review made of the game three or so years ago back when we had the hub city full of dogs and cops. The reviewer called 7 Days to Die “impossible” to play. To prove how impossible the game was he showed his own game footage of him on day 1 naked and alone running into the hub city. He then did it three more times trying to retrieve his pack—of course dying each time.

 

On the one hand we have gamers asking for TFP to please design places and things that are too difficult for an early level player to handle and that they should need to wait and come back after their progression reaches a point where they can do it. TFP complies and then the other hand drops where we then get complaints and rants that you can’t run into a hub city on day 1 naked. It takes too long to break open a safe with this tier one stone axe! Dungeon POIs have Ferals on Day 1 how am I expected to deal with that?!

 

ABSOLUTELY, I have no problem with areas being harder than others and coming back when I can deal with them. Or I'll try to sneak my way in to get loot then make my daring escape. There are so many ways to do all the stuff people complain about. I believe adapting to the situation and learning the mechanics is what you need to do in order to make it far into this game. It's not Minecraft and it sure isn't rust or ark. This game is absolutely great and I love where TFP are headed with it.

 

No decent games cater to good players anymore and just soften the gameplay for the vocal minority who are generally not good at games. This game offers the chance for HC people to play it and suffer or normies to lower the difficulty and relax. Sure Game Stage needs to be tweaked a little for those normies but right now I feel this game will be the one that takes most of my time for a while. The changes implemented make it feel fresh while remaining fundamentally the same game too. It is still a Sandbox/Survival/Crafting game and I can't get enough. I only have 600 hours in this game so far but I can easily see myself putting in as many hours as I have in Civilization IV, V and VI within the coming months.

 

To be completely honest, I was bored of a16.4 for a long time and decided to wait for the coming changes in a17 and so far I'm not disappointed. I look forward to the stable release and even more updates aftwerwards. I'm not even a blind fanboy of the game or TFP and have criticized some changes all while adapting to them and realizing that they weren't as bad as I initially thought. I wish I was proficient at coding or art so I coulda gotten a job at TFP when they were hiring. Oh well, I will continue to learn and develop my own RPG/Survival game.

 

TL;DR

I love the steps taken and understand that there are balancing issues that will be ironed out, I haven't had many issues with the core gameplay and have adapted to overcome what initially seemed like bad changes. I look forward to the continued development of the game and the eventual release!

[pahbi]

The zombie bear was definitely a stroke of bad luck, and I could see how you'd be stressed with the time approaching 22:00 and the vendor about to kick you out. In your position I likely would have made the same mistake. I'm a total casual gamer.

 

That said, in hindsight, you could have jumped the rear fence and got out the back.

 

I was trading with a vendor and a bear attacked me, there is definitely some kind of bug with vendors.

 

* I like that some areas are difficult, and you have to wait to go there.

 

* I wish the vendor area had a 'safer' radius. Not totally safe, but a little less likely to have a zombie.

 

- P

[Jedo]

I define fun in this context as "a cross between entertaining activity, and challenge, and creativity" (the last mostly around building because building can be fun just in itself).

 

I think I would go with this definition. I don't like the punishing, impossible games out there, but I like a challenge. I want to be able to "win" and I want to have to work at it (improve my play in some way) in order to achieve the win, but I don't want winning to come down to having razor sharp reflexes.

 

Anyway, I love A17 and I'm having a lot of fun. A16 wasn't that fun, and because of a combination of real-life factors, my buddies and I stopped playing. We've started a new game of A17, and we're having a blast. We can't wait to hop back on and play, even if it's only for an hour when we have the time. (We usually prefer longer play sessions.) Things are paced differently in A16 with different restrictions, but we see it as a matter of adjusting to the new world of 7dtd. As a role-player, I have no idea what sort of obstacles I would encounter in an apocalypse, so I don't really mind the ones that exist in A17. They also don't feel "gamey" to me. I just play, and when a new perk or something comes available, I enjoy it.

[HerrKingsley]

There was a negative video review made of the game three or so years ago back when we had the hub city full of dogs and cops. The reviewer called 7 Days to Die “impossible” to play. To prove how impossible the game was he showed his own game footage of him on day 1 naked and alone running into the hub city. He then did it three more times trying to retrieve his pack—of course dying each time.

 

On the one hand we have gamers asking for TFP to please design places and things that are too difficult for an early level player to handle and that they should need to wait and come back after their progression reaches a point where they can do it. TFP complies and then the other hand drops where we then get complaints and rants that you can’t run into a hub city on day 1 naked. It takes too long to break open a safe with this tier one stone axe! Dungeon POIs have Ferals on Day 1 how am I expected to deal with that?!

 

If I recall it correctly. You use to spawn close to the hub city and therefore was the most logical place to go and look for loot. That's why a lot of new players who want raised in navazgane had problems with this. They didn't start in a easy area where they could evolve and then venture out to more difficult areas.

 

Poi's with feral zombies dont really tell the player that "hey this building will probably get you killed". The skyscrapers in a16 had more of that feeling since the stood out so much compared to the normal pois.

 

This could of course be balanced by only placing them in desert or snow where it is hard to survive without the right gear.

 

Balancing and indicators that's how you handle that. Your welcome

[TSBX]

My favorite was always the now lost, "Umm, uhh..." video. It was a mashup of MM answering the Q&A thread interspersed with his own audio quotes of, "Umm." "Uhh" "I mean..." etc. Moreso, it was art.

[LordoftheMoo]

The zombie bear was definitely a stroke of bad luck, and I could see how you'd be stressed with the time approaching 22:00 and the vendor about to kick you out. In your position I likely would have made the same mistake. I'm a total casual gamer.

 

That said, in hindsight, you could have jumped the rear fence and got out the back.

- P

 

If there had been any indication that the bear was out there, that's exactly what I would have done. I think part of it might be that there are issues with the game sending visual and audio clues. A bear can make a lot of noise, and there should be those cues when one is snuffling around a door trying to figure out how to get at you. People have talked about wolves doing similar things, being completely silent and that this might be unintended (but we don't know) and I know even in a16 the first indication of the little girl coming up on you was usually *THWACK* *GIGGLE* I think though that on such a low difficulty setting that the thing should never have been there, and I think that's part of the overall issue with a17's scaling right now, is that the difference between Scavenger and Insane isn't a survivability level. I think that's what's broken, not that on Insane you are going to get eaten a LOT because you should (You deserve it for playing on insane. ). Rather, you shouldn't on Scavenger.

 

I think I would go with this definition. I don't like the punishing, impossible games out there, but I like a challenge. I want to be able to "win" and I want to have to work at it (improve my play in some way) in order to achieve the win, but I don't want winning to come down to having razor sharp reflexes.

 

Exactly, I don't want a twitch-shooter game in 7dtd, I want something that I can look at for a second and think on (and that I often MUST look at and think on, else I'm zed chow). Day 1 ambushes by end game critters though isn't in that category; you don't have time to think about the challenge and in this case there was no running, either (running is a valid way of getting that second to think, IMO - I've run from a LOT of buildings that I've pissed off). I also think that if you want a harder challenge, then the difficulty setting should be how you get that. End game critters on Day 1 might be valid for playing on Insane. I don't think that's true for Scavenger on Day 1.

 

ABSOLUTELY, I have no problem with areas being harder than others and coming back when I can deal with them. Or I'll try to sneak my way in to get loot then make my daring escape. There are so many ways to do all the stuff people complain about. I believe adapting to the situation and learning the mechanics is what you need to do in order to make it far into this game. It's not Minecraft and it sure isn't rust or ark. This game is absolutely great and I love where TFP are headed with it.

 

No decent games cater to good players anymore and just soften the gameplay for the vocal minority who are generally not good at games. This game offers the chance for HC people to play it and suffer or normies to lower the difficulty and relax. Sure Game Stage needs to be tweaked a little for those normies but right now I feel this game will be the one that takes most of my time for a while. The changes implemented make it feel fresh while remaining fundamentally the same game too. It is still a Sandbox/Survival/Crafting game and I can't get enough. I only have 600 hours in this game so far but I can easily see myself putting in as many hours as I have in Civilization IV, V and VI within the coming months.

 

To be completely honest, I was bored of a16.4 for a long time and decided to wait for the coming changes in a17 and so far I'm not disappointed. I look forward to the stable release and even more updates aftwerwards. I'm not even a blind fanboy of the game or TFP and have criticized some changes all while adapting to them and realizing that they weren't as bad as I initially thought. I wish I was proficient at coding or art so I coulda gotten a job at TFP when they were hiring. Oh well, I will continue to learn and develop my own RPG/Survival game.

 

TL;DR

I love the steps taken and understand that there are balancing issues that will be ironed out, I haven't had many issues with the core gameplay and have adapted to overcome what initially seemed like bad changes. I look forward to the continued development of the game and the eventual release!

 

I think a16 is a matter of "once you know the system, it's too easy". My first game was tough and I died a lot, but I haven't died in my last 5 a16 games no matter the settings used. a17 was hopefully going to bring some "you need to work at this to survive" back. I think at the lower settings however the pendulum has swung too far the other way. I've said in other threads that I don't think they are making enough use of the difficulty setting, and that it should affect nearly everything (except perhaps the rwg because I am 100% certain tying them together would be a MESS. Screw that, I wouldn't wish that on anyone). Hopefully what they have been saying about "this is the intended difficulty we wanted" is more for the HC/insane level gameplay, and they plan on making more major adjustments down the scale, but I haven't been getting that vibe, so who knows. That's what concerns me, honestly, is that it seems they want that even on the easiest settings the game is going to play like it's on the toughest settings across the boards. With the gs scaling changing so much, is there even much of a difference left in tine Difficulty settings? Just damage/hp?