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A17 Pointless base building


skylerkae

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Can't recall offhand and not at PC to check, think I was level 13 or so at the start of the night.

Standard difficulty, max zombies, solo, 60min days on random gen.

Will post GS later but level gives you an idea.

 

Thats the key thing. After gamestage 59 is where it starts to completely break because you then start getting irradiated zombies which just blow away defenses at that point as they can regen faster then you can hurt them.

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Still stands the simple math.

 

It takes a horde buffed 4 zombies 7 seconds to break through a single block of cobblestone, 3 seconds on forged iron spikes (if you even have that by day 7 praisebe2rngeesus) Whatever you build is tissue paper to them.

 

Digging down is a good addition, but they also get a 8x speed attack buff for digging downwards. That stacked with their ability to share block space and you have 4 zombies hitting 12times a second burrowing downwards like a bullet. They literally make perfect 1x1 holes downwards.

 

 

 

My day 7 horde we already knew we wouldnt be ready for so we made a 70 block long tunnel at bedrock and as we heard them dig we would run to the opposite end of the tunnel, they would dig a perfect flat parallel tunnel above. they still eventually breached at 00.30 and we ended up running shorter bits of tunnel and deploying a pair of metal spikes behind us for running barricades to stall them and shoot over.

3 smg's would take each pod of horders out.

 

 

Made it through with only 12 blocks of free walking room left.

 

Tense, gritty/dirty genuinely felt like a battle for survival. But it ran so close I dont see that working for day 14. We hope to have fortified a nearby gas station enough by then with the materials we didnt waste on trying to build a night 7 defence. The clay shortage is real though.... Full 3 days spent gathering stone and clay and we didnt have enough cobble to make a one thick 3 high lipped wall for the back garden of the gas station... :D

 

Materials are really hard to gather for building. But then I havent 100% perked the digging yet, I had to buff farming to garner enough food to keep 3 folk alive in one base. Of course the walls and the farmland need the same building material... that may have something to do with my shortage.... but its impossible to dig on an empty stomach now :L

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Thats the key thing. After gamestage 59 is where it starts to completely break because you then start getting irradiated zombies which just blow away defenses at that point as they can regen faster then you can hurt them.

 

Oh no I know, have several games going, SP, co-op and dedi.

 

We are seeing some impressive hordes with 3-4 players on Guppy's server.

 

It was demonstrating Day 7 solo.

Radiated are no where near as tough as the A16 version btw ;)

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So I was just busting into a school and there was 2 zombies behind the door so I woke them up and let em hit it. First one hit it for 20, the second one hit it for 35, then 20, then 35, it seems if its hit in rapid sucession by zombies they get a fairly large block dmg bonus. These 2 zombies were the exact same one btw. Then again even without it, with 10 zombies beating on one block its not going to last long, even without the damage bonuses. IMO they should cap the number of zombies that can do dmg to a block per block, though I am not sure how much of a performance hit this will cause, it'll probally not be a small one.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Do not underestimate the jumping capabilities of the spider zombies. I am very close to define

them as flying as well.

 

Just had to link this:

them damn spider zombies.
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Me and friend stayed for horde night and lasted surprisingly longer than I thought lol.

I am seeing posts of players saying their bases didn't last long. I also see a couple posts of ones that did last (though I think they make it seem just barely, but they did last)

Problem I see is, and this is knowing it is experimental and future fixes could change everything, that a lot of us will see the couple of base designs that work and will copy them. That may be great because then more of us may be able to last a full horde night but.....we will lose those nicely designed, aesthetically looking bases that players use to be so proud of that they would love to give tours. Even going so far as to make youtube video tours of them. I am afraid we might end up with a bunch of cookie cutter bases just so we don't have to keep rebuilding. I think TFP will have their hands full trying to balance the game so precisely so it works for the fighters and the builders. Am hoping they can. Until then I do enjoy the comradery of standing together with some buddies and fighting to the death. Even if the death is an inevitability.

Die well brothers (and sisters)

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I survived the day 14 blood moon by finding a giant open field, then filling the field with barb wire, spikes, short walls made of dirt, pits with spikes, and then placed campfires around the perimeter to mark off the killing area.

 

Then I kited the zombies around, shooting them when they were hung up on walls or barb wire, or clubbing them if they got to close.

 

A few times I almost got surrounded, and a spider monkey broke my leg, and the traps didn't do much for the irradiated cops, but eventually I made it through.

 

I think a shotgun turret in the field would help a ton, but I don't have the materials to make that yet.

 

I guess the moral of the story is we are going to need two bases. A place to live in and craft, and a place to survive the hordes.

 

- P

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I tried fighting like I did in Alpha 16, Melee style on the ground with just a wood catwalk to jump up on and run around on for safety.

 

Quickly found beer isn't very helpful anymore and your toon has a terribly low tolerance for beer as it's insta blurry.

 

I have a catwalk, and spikes underneath, with 5x5 rows of spikes with space to run between so the zombies will get caught on and die.

 

Started ok, killed the odd one, but ended up just running around the spikes hoping they'd die.

 

I did mod my game to reduce the jump and run stam.

 

I was level 40 for 7 day horde on 2 hour game days. Horde had cops, and ferals and well everything I guess. haha

 

I went through 13 beer, and they collapsed my catwalk and not that many were dying anymore. So I figured I best run for some safety. Then the game ran into the null reference error and had to restart the game which reset the horde.

 

So I ran to a building and frame jumped my way to the roof, they went through the building up the stairs onto the roof in moments and I was on my way down the blocks for another building.

 

Ran to another, framed up, and again same thing. Had no choice but to get out of there.

 

This time ran onto one of those garage type poi's and regained some stam, It was beside a very tall brownstone building. So I put frames from the roof to the wall of that building. The zombies started filing in like a row of ants into the brownstone to get to a spot where they could get onto the frame walkway I made. I was able to shoot some of them, then I removed the frames that touched the brownstone and they all turned around and ran down the stairs out, or out the windows and openings. After most were out, I'd put the blocks back on and again they'd stream into the brownstone.

 

I figured, this was my way to survive the night since it had gone so wrong so fast. But after 5 or 6 rounds of musical stairs, the building I was on collapsed.

 

I ran and framed up another building, and they were in the room under me. It was about 3:30am at this point. I placed a block over the ladder and leveled it up as far as I could. They broke it once and I replaced it, then another null reference error. Reload and horde reset with cops in there there. That made things bad and they broke through the roof. I was able to get out of there, and run. Had to kill some dogs, but was able to survive the night.

 

So I suppose if you want to just survive, find two large buildings and put blocks across remove one side, have them run around to the other side, rinse repeat until morning.

 

Made for a rather exciting evening, although it certainly isn't what I was hoping for.

 

Seems melee horde nights are no more. booo I really enjoyed those.

 

ohya it was on Normal difficulty with 24 enemies on bloodmoon.

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I'm still running tests in creative, the only things I've discovered is:

 

Spikes are not enough passive damage to soften anything but an ultra-early game horde. You need blade traps, dart traps, Electric fencing, and turrets. You also need design setups for them to operate properly and not just hang them out there.

 

Doors are structural weak points if you only use one door. You can face two doors against each other, and the AI seems to regard that path as 'too hard'. Airlock style entry/exit paths can exist at ground level with upwards of 4 doors without constantly being pathed through by wanderers and ferals.

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I think I've found a way to whittle down the numbers a bit. it's not an end-all solution, but it looks like a good first-line defense.

 

Literally the dumbest way ever: Pit traps. filled with spikes.

 

Have a gap in your outer perimeter, with, for the sake of my tests, a 10 long, 2 wide, 2-3 block deep pit. line it with flagstone or whatever you like or leave it dirt. Fill it with spike traps.

 

I've been running tests with 25 arlenes and this has been the most effective, by far, of whittling down the numbers. Only a few jump over the pit, so you'll need to kill them. Some pyramid up. Sure, fine. But most stay in the pit where it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Bonus points if you put mines down at the bottom.

 

Most defense setups I've tried have left at least a dozen and more arlenes alive. This one left only 5, which is manageable from a defensive standpoint. This is also small enough to repeat at several points around a base, and the test was run with a doubled-door right next to the pit so no funky jump-overs are needed.

 

A 10x3x3 pit with 60 spikes and covered with loose floorboards was enough to kill all 25 arlenes as they tried to jump up onto unbroken trap plates. I'll consider that a win.

 

A17.0_2018-11-24_23-27-20.jpg.8f097060d19f96ac01a703cc991d0102.jpg

 

The 2:1 ratio for simple zombies is a bit concerning when you consider how beefy some of the other zombies are, and a cop explosion will, of course, clean the pit. By then, however, they still need to get out of the pit. Line with barbed wire and a fence so you don't accidentally fall in, and you're set.

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Haven't tested but starting to think zombies are more attracted to player based blocks?

 

Converted 2 poi wood barns and both of them are still standing in the 3rd week even with spitting cops and vultures and this is on insane. I stand in the middle of the barn on a raised platform only an outside ramp with a 3 gap to come in. Zombies do break walls and supports but they never tear the whole place down as they are crambling in the middle of the barn to try to get to me.

 

With the spikes not dismembering zombies anymore I've totally HAD to rely on building or more accurate refurbishing poi's. A16 u just needed a few of spikes, made them into crawlers and only had to deal with cops dogs and spiders, I even cooked bacon and eggs in the middle of the street on horde nights it was so easy.

 

Now though when doing easy tasks I'm constantly thinking how to outsmart the next game stage increase, it's great.

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Here is the problem. For many alpha's people have been cheesing the blood moon and that has made many of you simply rubbish at building a good blood moon base. I believe the devs never intended for you to sit in your base sipping a cup of coffee watching the hours tick away while Z's ran over your spikes and died.....or couldn't even get to you because you knocked out some stairs or were sitting on bedrock and that's the behaviour they have been trying to eliminate.

 

I build the typical blood moon base you have seen on these forums hundreds of times, 5x5 platform, raised 6 high on 4 pillars with truss frame to shoot through. Amazingly on my 21 day horde they knocked out 2 pillars (cobblestone) without a collapse despite me going nuts on any weapons I had.

 

Some of us have been actively defending against the blood moon for many alphas, being careful with ammo early game so we had heaps for the event. We don't have a problem with the blood moon.

 

For those of you that have been cheesing blood moon and wasting ammo early game, you are going to struggle until you relearn to play this game without the cheese. You will be a better player for it.

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Haven't tested but starting to think zombies are more attracted to player based blocks?

 

Converted 2 poi wood barns and both of them are still standing in the 3rd week even with spitting cops and vultures and this is on insane. I stand in the middle of the barn on a raised platform only an outside ramp with a 3 gap to come in. Zombies do break walls and supports but they never tear the whole place down as they are crambling in the middle of the barn to try to get to me.

 

With the spikes not dismembering zombies anymore I've totally HAD to rely on building or more accurate refurbishing poi's. A16 u just needed a few of spikes, made them into crawlers and only had to deal with cops dogs and spiders, I even cooked bacon and eggs in the middle of the street on horde nights it was so easy.

 

Now though when doing easy tasks I'm constantly thinking how to outsmart the next game stage increase, it's great.

 

I'm starting to understand the AI's pathing preference:

1 - Is a direct path available without jumping up or down on anything. Take it.

2 - Is the target below me. Destroy floor / jump down.

3 - Is the target pathable if I ignore doors? Destroy and path through door.

4 - Can I step over something? Jump it.

5 - Can I pyramid to a pathable route? Jump on zombie.

6 - Is there no path, RAGE.

 

Interesting quirk: Zombies will pyramid at the exterior wall or rage if there's a 1 block 'jump' behind the door they can't avoid.

 

The best bait for zombies is an open path. That's why I started testing spike pitfall traps with loose floorboards covering them. They fall in and are either killed or controlled for a much longer period of time than most other scenarios, with only a few stragglers at worst.

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I have a video to prove just how easy Day 7 was with a basic horde night base.

 

Obviously later hordes would require more than this but it is intended to be modular so expandable easily and upgradeable etc.

Molotov's and clumping are the key, plus enough spikes.

 

 

And just disregard the fact that I MAY have set myself on fire... just once ;)

I think they broke a total of 3 blocks of cobble, the outer wall was purely testing the Ai for funnelling etc and they did not behave how I expected so it was interesting to observe.

The base was started on the morning of Day 5.

 

But you had very few zombies and it seemed like they kept coming at midnight.

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I first tried playing on lower difficulties (I like to play Dead Is Dead).

 

I had many starter bases overrun by zombies piling up over my defenses on DAY ONE!

I've managed some games past day 14, but it was a tough night on 14.

At times the Z's have become so focussed on a part of my building that when I've fallen through a damaged part they've actually ignored me, and I've been able to run around behind them, collecting arrows, and laying some frames to get myself back up out of their reach (if they'd turned around I'd have been mince).

 

I do wonder if they are targetting a 'heat point' within the building, rather than the player now.

 

Anyway, I've now concluded the only feasible option for Dead Is Dead play is to select Zombies Never Run. Now when a horde hits I can just go out regardless of day or night and just club them all to death without them even touching my building. The building could be made out of paper for all it matters now.

It also eliminates the danger of being late getting back to base after a 2.5km run to a distant quest. If night falls, just keep walking and clubbing.

Now the only real danger I face is being overrun by masses in a confined space (ie a quest that drops a bundle of Z's onto me)

 

So essentially, the undefensible hordes have eliminated the intended game play. Here's hoping some eventual balancing will get the game back into a credible base build/defense state, where base destruction isn't a guaranteed outcome.

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Radiated are no where near as tough as the A16 version btw ;)

 

Yeah, I dropped a Day 14 Radiated Whyte with stone crossbow bolts, and that was even with a lot of my shots going to all the other zombies around the place, so their regen is definitely a lot less than A16.

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I've made a small test in creative. Race: who first will destroy full reinforced concrete block, normal Hawaiian zombie or me with auger in hands. He won, when he finished 6000hp reinforced concrete block I was still on 1500/6000. Feral or radiated Hawaiians deals about two times more dmg to blocks. Maybe some zeds have small augers in their hands(or pickaxes instead fingers), so small that we do not see them. Multiply this by 8 zeds on horde night... (I know that hawaiian and cops are the strongest zeds)

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Just had another thought... I would like to hear from anyone getting screamers. If we add wandering hordes- 7 day hordes and then screamer hordes that in A16 started to camp forge areas, how is this going to affect base building?

 

Believe it or not, on Day 7, i had a Screamer walk up to my base at 20:00, a wandering horde came about 50 meters alongside the base at 21:00 and then the horde came at 22:00. The screamer died on the spikes before screaming and i just let the horde walk past the base and they stopped about 150 meters away from the base and i just had to deal with the regular horde. i went and killed the wandering horde after i was done with the 7 day one.

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What Im reading from all this then, is that if we want to take advantage of all the new blocks and build a "nice" base, it should be a secondary base. For horde night we need to build a formatted base to take advantage of the quirks of the AI (blocks to another building etc..).

I love what they have done, but as another poster stated its going to be hard for the devs to compromise between the builders and the hardcore survivalists.

Back when I modded Neverwinter nights servers you could tweak the AI of mobs, you had ranged, casters, healers etc. I found that adding random spawns to generics made for some great encounters. To transpose this idea, if on the horde night instead of doing a quarterback checkdown which is predictable after time, if the devs could add a random element to behaviour it could mitigate the problem. For example, if each zombie had a different AI checkdown chosen at random. We could have the current one, plus one that says destroy every block within x radius of player, one that attacks nearest door, Pyramiding, etc. The randomness would make every attack different, some wildly unsuccessful, some more potent depending on base style. Instead of a checkdown, each zombie gets a part of the code and changes it every 60 seconds or so.

 

Because if bandits are coming, zombies working in unison with auger hands are going to be hard to beat. Even a rocket launcher will not do that much damage, and bandits are supposed to be intelligent and work together - Zombies arent.

 

Just an idea.

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What Im reading from all this then, is that if we want to take advantage of all the new blocks and build a "nice" base, it should be a secondary base.

 

Nope ... just build your nice base. As i do too. Just build it that Zombies can access a tunnel or a small path to you. So you can kill them one by one ... like this:

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20181125153945_1.thumb.jpg.58dfefb90b5a1c840f2e282e79318c99.jpg

Basement_2.jpg.d67ccb569b1f925976550be280cfd3ba.jpg

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What Im reading from all this then, is that if we want to take advantage of all the new blocks and build a "nice" base, it should be a secondary base. For horde night we need to build a formatted base to take advantage of the quirks of the AI (blocks to another building etc..).

 

On Day 10 or 11 and that is what i am planning to do. I got my wood defensive base set up, but am going to build a more fortified flagstone storage tower close enough to it for my main items. I have about 3 or 4 days to get it set up. Hopefully i can get it done in 1 day for the base and 1 day to move the critical loot. I could also just build a new main defensive tower, but i'm not sure if i will have enough time. don't have the resources for it right now.

 

I was trying to look for ore below some rocks and a horde came by. I think i was digging less than 2 or 3 minutes (about 10 blocks down), I made a small wooden square with a door and they were pounding all around as i scrambled to make my way back up and out. Fortunately, they weren't at the door and around the rest of the small walled structure, so i was able to get out.

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I've made a small test in creative. Race: who first will destroy full reinforced concrete block, normal Hawaiian zombie or me with auger in hands. He won, when he finished 6000hp reinforced concrete block I was still on 1500/6000. Feral or radiated Hawaiians deals about two times more dmg to blocks. Maybe some zeds have small augers in their hands(or pickaxes instead fingers), so small that we do not see them. Multiply this by 8 zeds on horde night... (I know that hawaiian and cops are the strongest zeds)

 

They'll be great for raiding then.

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