How this game is supposed to be played

[Sergoros]

At this experimental, I just run around forest, gathering feathers and sometimes killing boars at bloodmoon. You can easily outrun bloodmoon nights even with basic stamina. You can even run around in circles, harvesting boar little by little. No way im gonna even try to defend against crazy excavators, that zeds have become.

[thraka]

Can you just drive around all night in the jeep?

 

I wonder how they plan to stop people who log off during Blood Moons, or who strip naked and die once, then don't respawn until daytime?

[Poojam]

I wonder how they plan to stop people who log off during Blood Moons, or who strip naked and die once, then don't respawn until daytime?

 

Time stops if no one is in game. BM logging is prevalent on MP servers.

[thraka]

Time stops if no one is in game. BM logging is prevalent on MP servers.

 

And then of course, there is the ultimate exploit of simply refusing to play the game because it's unfair and boring. That's a hard one to resolve....

[Guppycur]

XML mods can't fix the most important problems here. If you think so, then I don't think you've done much xml modding.

 

Multiple land claim blocks is apparently in the DLL's. I don't think we can mod that back in. That's the biggest server killer in A17e right now.

 

I don't know that we can add item and gun quality back or the parts. Hopefully with the attachments it will become as encouraging to scavenge as it was.

 

It will take a great deal of time to add biome and map diversity back into the RWGmixer. It may not be possible. Apparently it's changed a lot.

 

I don't think we can fix the zombie sleeper RE-spawns that are holy obnoxious.

I don't know if we can eliminate encumbrance, but we can likely reduce it's debuff.

I think we can make it so the player is not constantly hungry/thirsty and those assets tied to health and stamina. Not sure yet.

 

I don't think we can mod zombie block damage to make them not be great diggers without sacrificing their ability to be effective at exposed bases. We can reduce the magnitude of their effectiveness, which might be adequate.

 

I don't know if we can speed up the player's actions and agility to make it feel like you're not walking in soup.

 

We can free up all the inventory slots on day 1.

We can give the zombies loot.

We can make the default headshot multiplier matter again.

We can eliminate all of the level gates and rework the perks/attributes.

We can add stamina drinks and balance it out so they have utility again.

We can eliminate the death penalty.

We can add more animals.

We can give you a forge at level 1.

We can buff XP for digging/crafting/planting/exploring.

 

We can probably add books/recipes back into the game too so that there is another primary reason to scavenge.

 

The "we cannot's" are new problems this time around and are way more important to change than the "we can's". I'd like to think the "we can's" are obvious to fix too, but I understand if people have different opinions.

 

p.s. I never envisioned having to address these things, because some have been in the game since I started playing (A9). I thought most of them functioned fairly well in A15/A16 too. I was mostly satisfied playing the game with pvp-friendly mods that a lot of the servers were running. Not real satisfied. But mostly. Now with A17, the scale has flopped off the table and fell on the floor. There's no balancing this.

 

About the only thing not easily moddable is the lcb count, which I wholly agree, needs to be returned. I wouldn't make the very bold and unsubstantiatable claim that servers are dying because of it though.

 

Yet.

 

It's just too soon to know what people like and don't. For every post of a dislike, I can find you one that started that way, but changed over time as people actually played the change, rather than just railing about it.

 

Now, I agree... Some things suck. No doubt. Some aspects are a slide backwards. Absolutely.

 

...but 20k posts from the same 10 people spelling doom and gloom rather than clearly articulating /why/ the changes are bad, helps no one.

 

Tfp digs in, you guys dig in, and the conversation about WHY the changes are not good either never happen or are drowned out by bull♥♥♥♥.

[Poojam]

...but 20k posts from the same 10 people spelling doom and gloom rather than clearly articulating /why/ the changes are bad, helps no one.

 

Tfp digs in, you guys dig in, and the conversation about WHY the changes are not good either never happen or are drowned out by bull♥♥♥♥.

 

In this forum, I've either written it already or someone else has. I have seen only once where anyone with a yellow name responded to me or any of the people I've seen comment on these things, and said they would consider making a change. After I explained why it was a severe problem for PVP, Gazz said he would try to make player kills not trigger a death penalty. Which is wonderful, and I haven't brought it up since.

 

I've seen lots of yellow tag comments over the last few days, but none acknowledging these issues as even issues. I even created a thread about that fact and soliciting a response, and it's on the 2nd page with zero replies. So I suppose, I'll have something more rosy to talk about when people get their heels undug.

[Scyris]

I really thought there would be threads discussing new strategies and sharing ideas on how to survive horde night. I didn’t expect defeat threads where people would give up after less than a week with the game saying “It’s impossible!”

 

Well, when bases are bascally worthless now because zombies chew thru even stainless steel in 2 minutes or so to get to you. It seems the literal only way to make a base that will survive is to exploit the hell out of the AI, git gud, doesn't really apply here either, the problem is zombies block damage now is just far FAR too high. Its not just the buff for mutiple zombies being close, even without that buff they'd still rip thru things super fast as like 10 zombies can pile on and focus fire 1 block. Needs to be a limit of how many zombies can be hitting a block, or a max block dmg dps that can be delt to give players a chance, or, just increase player placed block hp a ton. Note: I said player placed blocks only, ones naturally spawned in poi's will have default values, so it gives more incentive to build your own.

 

Either way, something needs to be done, as its no longer a tower defense like a16, now its bascally exploiting the AI to win.

[Scyris]

The focus on POI's and the "encourangement" (re: FORCED) to kill zombies really do bring attention to the amazing work the building designers put in. it's a pity they overdid the spawns. You do NOT find 10 people inside a locked a 2 bedroom suburban flat unless it was orgy and wings night when things took a turn for the worst.

 

Also, hobos are not socialites. You do not need 4 zombies in a (also locked) rundown crapshack.

 

Yeah, I find many poi's have a unrealistic amount of sleepers in them. My record is having 3 or 4 bust out of a closet at once. Then again some poi's have too little zombies like the big stores. Some should have more than others. The food stores should have the highest amount of zombies because think of it, food source, people are going to wanna barricade and live in there to access the nom noms. However a small square house having 6-10+ zombies in it is kinda silly.

 

I actually rather like a17 other than the base issue, and the issue that guns just feel far to weak compared to their ammo costs, especally guns like the ak47.

[meganoth]

Well, when bases are bascally worthless now because zombies chew thru even stainless steel in 2 minutes or so to get to you. It seems the literal only way to make a base that will survive is to exploit the hell out of the AI, git gud, doesn't really apply here either, the problem is zombies block damage now is just far FAR too high. Its not just the buff for mutiple zombies being close, even without that buff they'd still rip thru things super fast as like 10 zombies can pile on and focus fire 1 block. Needs to be a limit of how many zombies can be hitting a block, or a max block dmg dps that can be delt to give players a chance, or, just increase player placed block hp a ton. Note: I said player placed blocks only, ones naturally spawned in poi's will have default values, so it gives more incentive to build your own.

 

Either way, something needs to be done, as its no longer a tower defense like a16, now its bascally exploiting the AI to win.

 

Depends on what you would call exploiting the AI. I'm not saying you are wrong or that there isn't a need for more balancing. But we are expected to exploit the zombie behaviour. If you think as a survivor, there is no AI, there are zombies that you observe. And if you observe they always follow the path of least resistance, you would exploit exactly that. If you would find out that a combination of traps is more efficient than others, you would use that.

 

Just as an example, did you already try to funnel the zombies? I.e. put a simple cobblestone wall (probably 3 high) around a platform pillar with just one LOONG spiked entrance to your base pillar(s) for the zombies? Would reduce greatly the amount of spikes to set down and need just a measly cobblestone wall. And that would not be exploiting the game, it would be exploiting observable zombie behaviour.

[Bubbahotetp]

Plants VS Zombies was a great game, actually.

 

Didn't like it that much, made it in time to refund it. Not horrible but... meh.

[ubai]

Why do I have to mod a game to make it a better experience? They, (the Pimps), might have as an option to make things harder, Dead is Dead, GPS Zombies homing in to your support struts, etc. Do they enhance my play? No.

 

Why do you have to mod any game? Because you want to add something you like, or change/remove something you don't. Games like this have so many moving parts that even the greatest game designers in the universe can't make a game that will please EVERYONE. 7DtD's greatest strength is that they recognize this and add a very robust and simple modding system so that you can tweak the game into something you like better.

 

It seems a bit masochistic to play a game you don't care for when it is so easy to mod. I have modded (or tried to mod) many games and 7DtD is definitely one of the easier ones. Honestly, it is the best part of the game.

[Brian9824]

I really thought there would be threads discussing new strategies and sharing ideas on how to survive horde night. I didn’t expect defeat threads where people would give up after less than a week with the game saying “It’s impossible!”

 

The problem is when at level 14 your getting radiated zombies spawning there is not much you can do to stop them aside from cheesing the AI. That's not fun to me. I don't want to build ramps to trick the AI, or build hanging bases, or build a hedge maze. All that combined with the fact we lost our primary defense of log spikes means all we can build for defense for the first 40 levels is basically balsa wood spikes.

 

I want to build a base and defend it, but with the zombie spawns, AI change to focus on the same blocks, and the new damage bonus if multiple zombies target the same block its an exercise in futility.

[OzHawkeye]

The problem is when at level 14 your getting radiated zombies spawning there is not much you can do to stop them aside from cheesing the AI. That's not fun to me. I don't want to build ramps to trick the AI, or build hanging bases, or build a hedge maze. All that combined with the fact we lost our primary defense of log spikes means all we can build for defense for the first 40 levels is basically balsa wood spikes.

 

I want to build a base and defend it, but with the zombie spawns, AI change to focus on the same blocks, and the new damage bonus if multiple zombies target the same block its an exercise in futility.

 

I think perhaps one of the (unintended?) consequences of the Zombie AI changes, is in using the strategy of calculating the path of least resistance to you (a friend of mine and I at lunch yesterday joked they must all be carrying around hidden slide rules and pocket calculators), they all make the SAME calculation on the SAME data, and hence all arrive at the SAME conclusion on which specific block to attack.

 

Hence we get a conga line (or worse, a dozen Zombies clipping into one), all hitting the ONE block, and receiving a Zombie-party damage boost while doing it to boot.

 

Hopefully, if this is indeed the issue, some way can be found to push them back into a more "broad front" attack pattern so that damage to a base is less focused.

 

I'd also very much like to have my Log Spikes back too. ;-)

[Brian9824]

I think perhaps one of the (unintended?) consequences of the Zombie AI changes, is in using the strategy of calculating the path of least resistance to you (a friend of mine and I at lunch yesterday joked they must all be carrying around hidden slide rules and pocket calculators), they all make the SAME calculation on the SAME data, and hence all arrive at the SAME conclusion on which specific block to attack.

 

Hence we get a conga line (or worse, a dozen Zombies clipping into one), all hitting the ONE block, and receiving a Zombie-party damage boost while doing it to boot.

 

Hopefully, if this is indeed the issue, some way can be found to push them back into a more "broad front" attack pattern so that damage to a base is less focused.

 

I'd also very much like to have my Log Spikes back too. ;-)

 

Yeah the AI change COMBINED with the bonus to zombies attacking the same blocks means they bypass 99% of your defense and hit 1 specific point. So you have to cheese the AI and purposely create a weak spot to draw them in, and then focus all defenses on that point.

 

Overall A17 is great. The individual difficulty, loot, etc is all great. It's just the spawning that's off. It's also something that's easy enough to change.

 

I suggested in another thread, and i'm gonna make a post tonight on it, but I feel like TFP should create a new menu option for spawning difficulty and use that to effect the gamestage rather then zombie difficulty. This way people can have tougher day to day zombies but not have it effect the spawning so that your getting radiated and ferals so fast

[OzHawkeye]

Yeah the AI change COMBINED with the bonus to zombies attacking the same blocks means they bypass 99% of your defense and hit 1 specific point. So you have to cheese the AI and purposely create a weak spot to draw them in, and then focus all defenses on that point.

 

Overall A17 is great. The individual difficulty, loot, etc is all great. It's just the spawning that's off. It's also something that's easy enough to change.

 

I suggested in another thread, and i'm gonna make a post tonight on it, but I feel like TFP should create a new menu option for spawning difficulty and use that to effect the gamestage rather then zombie difficulty. This way people can have tougher day to day zombies but not have it effect the spawning so that your getting radiated and ferals so fast

 

I'd be all for that too Brian.

 

Indeed, I miss the option from earlier Alpha's to bump up the spawn rate (say, in A10/11 etc). I'd rather zombies be i) pretty dumb, ii) not with ranged attacks but iii) so damn numerous that they might just totally overrun my base through a "mega-herd".

 

The current Zombie AI is something I think fits better for Bandits when they come in A18. Personally, for A17 stable, I'll look for ways to boost overall zombie numbers, and reduce the frequency of "laser-pew-pew" zombies where I can.

[Adammair]

It seems to me that a lot of my issues come from one simple fact - I'm not playing this game the way it was designed to played.

 

I am a base builder by nature, and that seems to become more and more difficult with each patch. So, please, tell me - is building a base a viable play style? Should I try to invent and build an impenetrable tower like I did in countless other tower defense games, or am I just doing it wrong? I am fine either way, but I would really like to know.

 

I am a tradeskiller by nature (mostly in games though . With A17 I find myself beating countless zombies with my iron club just so I can make some simple iron tools and cook a few simple items. I don't *need* them, I just want to make them, for, you know, fun. I used to be able to, but now it's all locked behind levels. I keep reading it was all done in the name of making the game more survival-like. /shrug

 

I played dozens and dozens of other games (no exaggeration here) where I could specialize in one area or the other. The way it usually works is that you get some basics from every single field, and then you excel at a single one of them. Can I do that in 7D2D now? I can't seem to be able to do much without spending skill points in the areas I have very little interest in.

 

I am truly at a loss here. Clearly, I have some wrong expectations. I can kill zombies all day with my iron club, but that gets real old real fast. I killed so many, I'm sure if zombies were smart enough, they'd avoid me by now. That's not what I want from this game. I want freedom to build. I'm not getting that vibe from A17.

 

It looks like this game is being changed to accommodate a very specific play style. I would really like to know what that play style is so I can adjust mine accordingly.

 

the game is supposed to be played how ever u want to play its your game and has no set rules and no one to tell u what u have to do

[giKoN]

the game is supposed to be played how ever u want to play its your game and has no set rules and no one to tell u what u have to do

I wanna boil an egg. The game tells me I have to kill 50 zombies first or spend roughly 20 real life hours mining. By then I ate the raw egg and blead to death out of my butthole.

[Kalen]

Depends on what you would call exploiting the AI. I'm not saying you are wrong or that there isn't a need for more balancing. But we are expected to exploit the zombie behaviour. If you think as a survivor, there is no AI, there are zombies that you observe. And if you observe they always follow the path of least resistance, you would exploit exactly that. If you would find out that a combination of traps is more efficient than others, you would use that.

 

Just as an example, did you already try to funnel the zombies? I.e. put a simple cobblestone wall (probably 3 high) around a platform pillar with just one LOONG spiked entrance to your base pillar(s) for the zombies? Would reduce greatly the amount of spikes to set down and need just a measly cobblestone wall. And that would not be exploiting the game, it would be exploiting observable zombie behaviour.

 

Its funny, when people use to exploit the AI by digging underground, many people on this forum called that cheating.

[Rockspider]

Its funny, when people used to exploit the AI by digging underground, many people on this forum called that cheating.

 

The exploit cheat rubbish! It was a sandbox game players can chose how they play their game! How does it effect any other player in the slightest in your game?

I can go into god mode for my whole game if I so chose how does that any other player?

 

Quick remove GOD MODE NOW!!!! lol

[Kalen]

Again with the exploit cheat rubbish! No it is a sandbox game players can chose how they play their game! How does it effect you in the slightest in your game?

I can go into god mode for my whole game if I so chose how does that effect you?

 

Quick remove GOD MODE NOW!!!!

 

lol, dude chill.... I didn't call it cheating.

[Rockspider]

soz dude redited 4u x

[Kalen]

soz dude redited 4u x

 

No worries, man.... its always been a heated topic.

[Jugginator]

I wanna boil an egg. The game tells me I have to kill 50 zombies first or spend roughly 20 real life hours mining. By then I ate the raw egg and blead to death out of my butthole.

 

Or.. ya know.. loot around in small houses / busted ones for a cooking pot. Easily find one in ovens and such.

[Kalen]

Or.. ya know.. loot around in small houses / busted ones for a cooking pot. Easily find one in ovens and such.

 

Ha! I take it you haven't tried to boil an egg yet in A17.

[Reth]

Or.. ya know.. loot around in small houses / busted ones for a cooking pot. Easily find one in ovens and such.

 

It almost sounds like some people who are happy with the new system haven't actually tried it yet. Interesting.