So this is where roland said to go to gripe about a17 and the early release...

[JaxTeller718]

Yeah this is the REAL problem here.

 

 

What about those who didn't get "in" with TFP but are trying to promote their own channel?

They lost revenue/subscribers/publicity in a sense didn't they?

Yet some folks who just happen to know a Streamer get the advantage?

 

COME ON!

 

Exactly this. I can name 4 people right now, Streamers who the majority of their content IS 7 Days on a daily basis. They play Vanilla, they play mods. They LOVE the game. And all 4 were told no. Yet Joe Blow who plays Fortnite with Streamer A gets to play it off stream.

 

Some streamers also spent their time being very negative about the update. Not a lot but 2 that I checked out had nothing good to say about the changes. THAT is the kind of publicity you bought. Meanwhile other streamers out there are praising it and what they have seen and these people were told they were not popular enough.

 

This affects more than modders. Sure a lot of people don't care. That's fine, but there are some who do and they shouldn't be waved off to silence because it doesn't fit the company line.

 

You cant say "sorry guys but this is what we are doing and only these people can have it" and then have it turn out that there was no REAL selective process and a bunch of people got it. It is one or the other. Either ONLY allow the actual streamer to get it "like last year" or just give it to everyone. Because at this point modders, non modders, wives, cousins etc are all have access while the gatekeepers are still trying to tell us to move along, nothing to see here.

[katarynna]

I also agree with your issues Jax.

 

I completely support the idea behind the streamer event. But perhaps it should be for the streamers only and not also opened up to their friends.

 

With the a16 stream team, the number of streamers was very small and therefore much less likely to be abused.

 

Opening up the event like they did this time seems both reasonable and smart. However, with that many streamers, maintaining control of how they use their access once you also allow them to give "friends" access to play with them is impossible.

 

While I am sure TFP neither anticipated nor agreed with streamers selling early access or giving access to people they are not actually playing with on stream during the event, in hindsight it is not surprising.

 

While clearly some streamers abused their access, I still think targeting variety streamers who rarely or never stream 7DTD is a smart move. I just feel that in future events, access to the streamers only would be a better move.

[BloodDeacon]

I agree with your sentiment. I didnt care either. But when you are 100 percent on the outside looking in it begins to matter. Allowing modders access was an argument that was shot down because we were told we would get it like everyone else would when it was released. Which I was cool with.

 

Until it was obvious you didn't even HAVE to be a streamer to get it. Not only does this insult other modders, it insults all the streamers who applied and were turned down because of low viewership. Streamers who stream 7 days every single day and got completely ignored due to viewer count. The message here is clear. Befriend a streamer with high view counts. Screw the kickstarters, screw the people who LOSE viewers because they ONLY play 7 Days when content takes a year plus. But reward people with high numbers, some of whom have NO idea how to pay your game and their ONLY interest is in getting a sneak peek under their belts for viewers.

 

I'm not a modder, but I play 7DTD mods extensively. I'm a bit uneasy about how some of the leadership occasionally appears to take modders for granted. While it's probably a lesser issue at the moment, the long-term health of survival and RPG games is heavily dependent upon the existence of a happy, healthy modding community. Games like Skyrim, FONV, and of course, Minecraft, would have only seen a fraction of their success without the existence of mods that tailor the experience of the games to varying player interests and permit significant replayability beyond that of the base game.

[Eyegore]

It's nothing like Blizzcon.

Terrible comparison.

 

Nope, it's almost dead-on. Lemme remind you. Blizzard made the announcement to a roomful of fanboys about the game they loved, with the smug expectation that everyone would be happy to hear that the game wasn't actually for them, they'd have to wait much longer for Diablo 4 on PC, but in the meantime they should be really happy to play a cheap knockoff on their phones.

"Is this an off-season April fool's joke?" One fan asked, to great applause, because he was speaking for the vast majority in the room. The developer seemed genuinely surprised at the perfectly normal reaction from the audience, and so he asked, mockingly, 'Don't you all have phones?".... seeming much like a very old and similarly tone-deaf quote about why don't poor people just eat cake when they're hungry and there's no bread?

 

So we should all be happy some 'special' people get to play before us, and we should even go watch them and be grateful. But no, instead we got 19 pages of people expressing their dissatisfaction. That's what really happens. And someone made a great point about how even the people who do see it on a stream and want to buy it, can't, at least not the game they saw on stream. Not yet. That's why it should have been made available to everyone at once, and then everyone would be happy, with zero ill-will generated among the fans. I hope they learn from this and don't repeat this fiasco on the next release some years from now.

[LuckyStar]

Nope, it's almost dead-on. Lemme remind you. Blizzard made the announcement to a roomful of fanboys about the game they loved, with the smug expectation that everyone would be happy to hear that the game wasn't actually for them, they'd have to wait much longer for Diablo 4 on PC, but in the meantime they should be really happy to play a cheap knockoff on their phones.

"Is this an off-season April fool's joke?" One fan asked, to great applause, because he was speaking for the vast majority in the room. The developer seemed genuinely surprised at the perfectly normal reaction from the audience, and so he asked, mockingly, 'Don't you all have phones?".... seeming much like a very old and similarly tone-deaf quote about why don't poor people just eat cake when they're hungry and there's no bread?

 

So we should all be happy some 'special' people get to play before us, and we should even go watch them and be grateful. But no, instead we got 19 pages of people expressing their dissatisfaction. That's what really happens. And someone made a great point about how even the people who do see it on a stream and want to buy it, can't, at least not the game they saw on stream. Not yet. That's why it should have been made available to everyone at once, and then everyone would be happy, with zero ill-will generated among the fans. I hope they learn from this and don't repeat this fiasco on the next release some years from now.

 

While I may not completely agree with you....

 

..I'll concede you make a very strong argument.

[with regard to when it should have been released, that is]

 

Not sure I want to debate the whole Blizzcon thing here and hijack a thread but I'd be open to discussing it in another thread.

Sounds like you got a good head on your shoulders.

[Valhurian]

As a long time player, I've tried to avoid posting on the forums because of the clashing within the community but this has gone on long enough.

 

I pirated the game in 2015 and bought it on steam after playing it for 2 weeks. If you want free advertising make a quality game and you'll start getting some free god tier advertising. It's called word of mouth. (Or in this day and age, word of text) If that alone is not a good enough incentive, maybe you should do things a bit more traditionally. As a programmer, I would be extremely surprised if TFP is not using some form of version control. This could be an advantage since you could use a version X many releases behind to release a public demo. (You know, like AAA producers used to do for console, and the thing that Mojang did for Minecrack)

Now you have 2 legitimate sources of advertisement that cost you absolutely no capital investment whatsoever. (Personally, I have a small group of friends that I brought into 7D2D, so you got some free advertising out of me even if you didn't ask for it. Come at me KB warriors)

 

Regarding this streamer event, I agree this is rather disrespectful to the previous customers that got you to where you are today. Yes, it costs money to turn the lights on, yes it costs money to make money. That doesn't mean you should treat your existing player base any different from your target audience. (BlizzCon is a superb example)

 

Another thought since I'm rambling is, for as long as this game has been in development this is NOT an alpha. Sure, it's an IP owned by TFP, and you can call it what you want. 7D2D Alpha 17, is about as accurate as me calling it D7D2 1.2.

 

 

For those people (myself included) that HAVE spent money and have played this game for 100, 1,000, or more time, they deserve at least an inkling of entitlement. Time is money, regardless of who is getting paid and who isn't. Players are wasting time (money), to play a game. Developers are investing time (money) to develop a sellable product. So if anyone here says a gamer is just entitled and whining, my advice to you is to take a good look at this industry. Gamers pay the heaviest price for gaming. That is, END USERS. Anyone playing here, could play something else, or work a little longer, or learn a new hobby. Instead we voluntarily consume our spare time (money) playing this game. So yes, the (mis)handling of this game concerns everyone who has invested capital and time.

 

End text wall. TL:DR Money = entitlement. Time is money. Players spend more than people that have never played. Come at me bro.

[amazombie]

I didnt read all 19 pages of this, so I may have missed this if it was brought up.

My idea may be a compromise. Recently another game I play did an event and to qualify you had to have a certain number of hours in the game.

I think this may be a way of compromising here, maybe give it to those who have x amount of hours played.

[Boldero]

I think Jax really does have a right to feel agrieved, tbh I hadn't even considered the guys like Jax (and I apologise for that) that have been modding the game for the benefit of keeping peoples interest and enjoyment in the game for much longer than if vanilla was the only option to players, so my level of ire has just gone up a notch... It at least should have been aknowledged by tfp, and they need to take a long hard look at this if they intend to ever do this again in the future.

 

Publicity for his game, especially amongst the community would have been much better served if someone had sat down and taken a look at the people that have done so much over the last year to promote this game rather than just a 5000 subscriber figure.

 

It really wouldn't have hurt to repay some of those modders and regular streamers with early access, as I am pretty damn sure that a lot of them would have been using the privelidge of early access for the overall benefit of the game not just getting subs or bits.

 

We need one of the big guns in the community to setup a twitch stream in the future, grab all the people here that are interested in seeing the smaller streamers and modders actually play the game and the people like myself who would much rather watch them than someone who has zero or fleeting interest in the game, im sure we could get it to 5k easily before the next alpha.

[Krakaphat]

It is indeed. Khaine is my friend so I hold no ill will to him, but its an absolute mockery of any argument posted here that its "for the streamers" when I am told "well he had a streamer friend who gave him access sorry man".

 

F That. It is 100 percent unfair to all of us. If you DIDNT stream you should NOT have access, bottom line. This means my goal for next year is to find a streamer with the sole purpose of getting an early copy because I have NO expectations to have to be a streamer to get one.

 

What about modders who do not use a streamer for access? Or what about normal players who don't even have access to communicate with a big streamer? To heck with them? That's a great message to send.

 

I was totally ok with all this streamer stuff, I even embraced it after initially being against it.

 

Am I salty? G-Damn right I am. I busted my A$# promoting this game through keeping interest in a full year of drought in content. Not only myself but all the other smaller modders too. They have 100 percent right to be salty as well. And our thanks for that is getting to come here and read about other modders getting to test and edit their mods on it because they know somebody?

 

The PUBLIC has every right to be salty. This wasn't a streamer exclusive event. This was a "It pays to know people in high places" event.

 

And before I get the whole "you will get it on Monday it's only 3 days" line well if it truly WAS only about it being three days then you shouldn't have a problem giving more people access, since they got it ANYWAY.

 

Don't post a lot normally but Respect you more than most Jax, you see things from "both side's of the Story" This Post sum's it up perfectly!!!!!

[Kam R.]

The nepotism is real.

 

Okay, fine, I care a bit.

It's "just" a game but yeah, especially since it's a game I'd love to not have to deal with real human bull♥♥♥♥ and just enjoy the game.

Hard to do that with these things happening, admittedly.

 

Maybe next alpha just release it to all right away. No more drama.

[Madnesis]

...

 

I think the Streaming event was a success.

It did what it was intended to do:

- Showcase A17

- Give players some answers and new questions

- Heighten anticipation and excitement

- Get people talking about 7DTD

 

...

I would add the following to the list:

 

- Disappoint (again, this is the 2nd time) many people from 7D2D’s community.

- Give the feeling that TFP don’t give a damn about their current non-streamer customers.

[thewalkingdeadguy]

20 Pages of smashing success... You wanted your marketing? You got it.

[General Lee]

I don't like vegans, vegetarians, or players who think zombies are simply misunder....I THOUGHT WE WERE SHARING HERE!!!

[.Markus]

I was sticking up for TFP earlier in the thread but with what has come to light I'm changing my mind. It's probably still a net benefit to the community maybe but only just barely. Assuming what you guys are posting is true then yeah, things got out of hand.

 

It's still an idea with merit but like they say pick two : cheap, fast, or good. They tried to pick all three.

[Chronosphere]

lol i dont think u understand marketing, these streamers has played for 4k hours ish and deserve the exposure, why not create hype for streamers and for the fans, its a win win for both.. beside the viwers and who cares its only 3 days lol. why be annoyed after waiting a whole year for changes and u explode from frustration when its right infront of you? lol.. sad

[Madnesis]

lol i dont think u understand marketing, these streamers has played for 4k hours ish and deserve the exposure, why not create hype for streamers and for the fans, its a win win for both.. beside the viwers and who cares its only 3 days lol. why be annoyed after waiting a whole year for changes and u explode from frustration when its right infront of you? lol.. sad

 

If the concept is just to annoy the community and do marketing stuff, I could propose some other stuff:

 

1. Remove the game from EA and say it's complete (why not) but before you do...

2. Build the hype by only giving access to streamers for over a... month! Wouldn't be that super new and awesome new marketing technique, huh?

3. Add remaining content as paid DLCs:

- Bandits DLC

- Behemoth DLC

- Gyrocopter DLC

- (Inser other random DLC here)

4. Add lootboxes

5. Add microtransactions so you could by super stylish hats.

6. (Insert some other random marketing technique here).

 

More seriously, what about finding the right spot and so people feel involved and heard and want to promote the game to their friends, family, whoever because it's dope and the devs are doing a great job, are open, transparent and honest with the community and release updates at once for all so all can enjoy the build and stream at the same time (casual vs "pro" streaming). What abou that?

[e1ghtbit]

Are we just screaming in a vacuum here? Do TFP read these and can we reasonably expect someone to respond to this? I mean aside from the snide Roland comments since he's just a moderator here.

[lazerblade01]

Probably no longer relevant, but one more piece of pie for everyone to chew on.

 

I was offered access to A17 on Saturday, third party (a friend of a streamer who got access offered me access). I declined.

 

Some questions to consider:

1. How many of the streamers that were given access had not previously streamed 7DTD?

2. How many viewers actually watched 7DTD from one of these streamers that had not previously watched it, considering that #1 is likely a very low number?

3. How many of the streamers who did stream, gave priority to streaming 7DTD the entire weekend?

4. How many of the streamers who were given access had not streamed 7DTD at all, or did so in limited lengths of time, over the past month?

 

My guess is that anyone who actually signed up was already a 7DTD streamer, and had recently streamed 7DTD - otherwise why bother signing up except to boost their viewer numbers, and for anyone looking to boost viewer numbers only, and not already being an established 7DTD streamer, chances are their viewers that stuck around to watch already have the game, or weren't there to see the game but rather to support the streamer.

 

I'd be interested in knowing if the sales were actually boosted by this event at all. Because my guess is that in comparison to a sale, the numbers were excessively low.

[LuckyStar]

I'd be interested in knowing if the sales were actually boosted by this event at all. Because my guess is that in comparison to a sale, the numbers were excessively low.

 

That's difficult to say in such a short amount of time.

 

Advertising is a tricky thing.

It takes time for a campaign to show it's results. [At times]

 

Certainly there are short term Ads that spawn immediate sales.

Made pizzas when I was 16.

Within 30 seconds of a commercial for our place, the orders began coming in.

 

Something like a Streaming event lasts awhile as the critics now have something to see.

Social media will take it's turn.

People will spread the word.

 

It's not always about immediate sales.

It can also be about promoting interest/awareness in the game.

 

We'll see.

 

You might be right, you might not be. Time will tell.

 

What I can say with absolute certainty is that companies that don't advertise at all fail.

[i have an MBA majoring in Advertising/Marketing if that means anything.]

[Burakin]

I'm just gonna add my 2 cents here for prosterities sake, though i'm sick n tired of the whole discussion by now.

 

to be clear: I'm against any kind of streamer preferential treatment whatsoever.

 

They can do their thing for whatever marketing goal TFP do or don't have while (other?) EA play (or watch the stream if they prefer) and it would have 0 negative effect on marketing. I'm not gonna repeat the detailed arguments I made elsewhere. They are searchable. I have yet to hear a single argument that holds water to do it this way, but I'm not expecting any or they would have been forwarded by now.

 

The fact that streamers dude(ette)s actually made a buck selling it to not-streamers , further f*&^*& the loyal EA fan over is just the cherry on the f-ing cake.

 

blegh

 

 

@ Jax - playing your ravenheart mod - was cocky and started a few times on the same setting I play vanilla (without taking time to get into the mod) and got offed real quick but managed to get to day 22 now without dying (play dead is dead, no air drops, 150% loot, no loot respawn warrior diff). I think you made a cool mod and i'm enjoying and respect all the work that went into it. Things I ran into I'll post in that, more relevant, thread.

 

edit: Serious Modders getting it sooner (even much sooner) then the rest of us; now that I could get behind. There is an appreciable benefit to that (at least for people who play mods - but i'm guessing many of the vets here do or have done (?) ) and they put many many hours of work into it (with, unlike streamers, no other tangible benefit then fellow fan appreciation - so arguably they deserve that extra bit.) So that is actual merit based benefit which makes a lot more sense to me.

[Cataclysmm]

Mod a game on release, wow, that seems like the babbling of a demented crazy bag lady..Why dont you actually see how the game plays thru before you go changing anything..But then, your probably one of those gamers that think they know better than the developers....

Must be nice having all that wealth and power, women, cars...Oh, wait..You dont.

[HIREDGUN]

 

It did what it was intended to do:

- Showcase A17

- Give players some answers and new questions

- Heighten anticipation and excitement

- Get people talking about 7DTD

 

 

AGREE.

 

 

I would add the following to the list:

 

- Disappoint (again, this is the 2nd time) many people from 7D2D’s community.

- Give the feeling that TFP don’t give a damn about their current non-streamer customers.

 

Disagree.

 

BUT I would add the following to the list:

 

- Find some early bugs to be addressed and possibly fixed before release to the 23% continually winy 7D2D’s community.

 

[meganoth]

Some streamers also spent their time being very negative about the update. Not a lot but 2 that I checked out had nothing good to say about the changes. THAT is the kind of publicity you bought. Meanwhile other streamers out there are praising it and what they have seen and these people were told they were not popular enough.

 

Well, are you suggesting Roland should have selected only streamers who have good things to say? Or let them sign a paper that they should not make negative comments?

 

THAT would generate a ♥♥♥♥storm of epic proportions!

 

TFP essentially bought show-time from steamers and not opinions. That there could be negative comments is normal with that form of marketing.

 

So we should all be happy some 'special' people get to play before us, and we should even go watch them and be grateful.

 

No one said you have to like it. You should simply ignore it like you ignore journalists who get to see new movies before you.

 

Players are wasting time (money), to play a game. ... Gamers pay the heaviest price for gaming. That is, END USERS. Anyone playing here, could play something else, or work a little longer, or learn a new hobby. Instead we voluntarily consume our spare time (money) playing this game.

 

Have you really thought about what you are saying here? As a satire it's absolutely great

[thearrican]

I was not aware of that and i wish a swift death to those who signed up to stream but then never did.

 

Just a heads up there are two people right now in the directory that I saw who have less than 500 followers and seem to be streaming solo... so guess the whole thing of giving out the code was the silliest thing they could have done huh? It really shows their dedication to the real streamers... Kappa

[thearrican]

Mod a game on release, wow, that seems like the babbling of a demented crazy bag lady..Why dont you actually see how the game plays thru before you go changing anything..But then, your probably one of those gamers that think they know better than the developers....

Must be nice having all that wealth and power, women, cars...Oh, wait..You dont.

 

You truly don't understand how gaming in the independent sector works do you? How many arma games were modded before they came out, rimworld, terraria, and so many others. These modders do know better than some devs, or have different ideas than some devs. I guess you don't know how many ideas have been pilfered from modders and used in games without compensation to modders because they truly did know better than the devs. Ignorance like this truly infuriates me.