A17 How Long Would You Wait For A Pre-Generated Map to Build?

[kareed]

i voted 10 by 10 only because size really isn't all that important to me, but i really am fine with i'd wait all day

[Fyrdrinc]

I am not sure why map size can't be a simple slider that defaults to some reasonable size. 4X games have been doing scalable maps for a long time, with a lot of success. Impatient people can do a small map, patient people can do a large one.

 

I wouldn't mind, while one is at it, being able to do something about sizes of towns and building clusters. I rather liked the old days where there were only a few really big cities and mostly otherwise you had small clusters of stores and houses at a crossroads.

[DaVegaNL]

It is separate from the game. It will be more like what the map generator that we have now is but instead of generating a map to preview the world you will be generating the world itself. So you could set it to generating on one computer and do something else on another computer. At the end of the generating you don't spawn into the world and start playing. Instead a random map named for a county other than Navezgane will appear in a list of maps with Navezgane. So instead of choosing either Navezgane or RGW in the options menu you will now select from a list of named maps that will be faux counties of Arizona. Eventually you could have a dozen or more different maps to choose from limited only by your storage capacity.

 

Starting a new game in random gen and generating a random gen map have been the same process, but in A17 they will be separate processes.

 

Hi Roland,

 

That sounds good! Then you can start multiple games in the same map, if I got this correctly, right?

Is it easy to delete a pre-generated map? Or do I have to go into the game directory to deleted it in that way?

[Burakin]

In today’s world of gaming, players of whatever age, WILL NOT wait more than 10 mins to play a game

 

The current generation of players are “click now and play a.s.a.p.”

 

Are there any popular games out there that have in the instructions or game specs stating “World generation will be approx. 1 hour to 5 hours+” and been successful?

 

I know that it’s not likely to just wait 10 mins for a huge map, but I just sense that this way, any new players or critics will just give up ask for refund and there will be endless bad reviews

 

The days of waiting for a game to load and play ended in the 80’s, I remember having a tape based computer (ZX Spectrum and C64 etc.) and waiting ages for it to load, only to get bored and then either reset, (that was back then when that was the only option, I know , I lived the 80’s)

 

Nowadays that will just not be acceptable

 

7 Days to die vets will be happy to wait, new/future players will not

 

Now as broadband speeds have increased the only way I can see around this is for a dedicated super spec online system, that you “login to” choose/make your world, let that super-fast nuclear powered comp generate the world quickly, show a preview and then the player will download it in a few mins, if they like it

 

Or

 

Pre made worlds, that players that have generated themselves and then have the ability to upload the entire world including the generated data to a map database, so that others can scan through “maps” and then download the ones they’d like to try

 

Making a player that doesn’t have the most up-to-date computer sit and wait for possibly hours, is just going backwards in today’s gaming world technology

 

finally

 

if there is a long wait for a generated map, there better be 0%, absolutely 0% of any stuttering or map loading time

 

That's way too sweeping and broadstated imo. While everyone is entitled to their views I don't like statements like this - it really misinforms dev's.

 

I digressed slightly so in italics for those who wanna skip the ramble.

After the 'privateer' / wing commander / (or the still excellent Freespace 2) noone made a half decent space sim anymore because 'thats what not like people wanted' - only to have the new yield gobbled up like cookies when they fiinally came (and star citizen - whatever your opinion of the development raising 150M in kickstarter money). The same for Turn/Tile based RPG -> we only got might and magic X legacy after god knows how long we waited cause no-one wanted it anymore (X wasn't all that great really, but some of my best gaming memories are 'world of Xeen' might and magic, not the heroes of mind you. The original rpg of wich heroes was a spinoff.)

If they released one now with 'somewhat modern' graphics and as great a story and a huge exansive area now i'd buy it.

(I still remember one of the very late game grotto/dungeons - you'd run into warning signs and the last one was "now you've done it, gone to deep. Your bones will lie in a rotting heap -> the sense of (justified) dread....)

In modern time - I might reroll a large world with long history more then a dozen times to get what i want for dwarf fortress world gen - takes several hours per)

 

 

Ofcourse you have your entitles screaming 16 years olds - and they are very visible. But ^^ like the polls prove there is a big amount of players out there that will invest time in getting stuff 'just right'. It shouldn't be hard to please both with what they got now. You have your navezgane for want to jump in immediately. You could even have the dev's or community ring up a few pre-RGW als alternatives to load up they in general liked very much by alpha 18 or even now if they are there already (edit: well ronald had the idea to - just on the page after the one I responded too - that either is stating the obvious then or great mind thinking alike - I'll leave Roland to pick which one ) Then you have your ready in 15 mins for people with a little more attention span then half a MTV clip. And then the option to go big for server, people who like expansive maps etc etc.

 

If we still do the seed thing properly I'd run up a 8x8 or whatever first that could finish in 15 mins and have a first look of 'the center' - pick the 2 or 3 most promising and have them gen overnight for 20 or 30 k and pick the best one from that to play in. If i'm gonna spend a lot of time in a map like that I'm wanting a good map.

 

edit: before i get jumped: I know as a single player i'm not gonna 'use' all of that. But I really like the idea of having a world around and picking my favourite spot instead of going to 'this this bestest one on this map' feeling. They way i play now often has me taking over a poi on the edge or near a town i make defesible for abotu the first 7 weeks. I get my ♥♥♥♥ together and build up reserves (if all goes well) and by then I usually found a 'nice' place scouting and go for a more elaborate fully player build base there. It just the feeling of not being on a railroad, doing what everyone would do.

 

So explicitly i;m not saying their aren't impatient players and they should at least be given the option to get to know the game before their patience runs out (as in not to lose client base) but having the options for us with time, patience, ocd whatever have the option seems wonderful and I want the dev's to know that.

 

they are putting in distant trees - removes one of my main immersion breakers so a island in a lake or a cliff based base becomes a nice option. Now if only they found a way to distant-render an "just about" version of player build (or adapted) bases too that would finish things up visually for me mostly. Meme's aside - the new lighting also did look nice for the most part.

 

edit: Just read they are making the building process threaded too. Even better - make a 'quick pick' based on some small renders then let the long one run from that seed even during daytime while you do work / watch a movie whatever (I work from home mostly )

[Burakin]

I guess I should step in and mention that the entire system is programmed with a Size variable and the code for generation scales.

 

8k is indeed the baseline as Roland put it. 8k is a good test to optimize as it is just a bit bigger than nav and I want it to take less than 10 minutes.

 

Generating larger sizes will work, will load, and will play. The variable for this will be exposed when you get a17. I'm doing testing on how long it takes things and putting together a semi-accurate timer so you know how long it's going to take total. The map generation is fully threaded aside from exporting to disk so you will be able to read messages on what is happening and how long is left, it will not lock up the game while generating. For dedi owners it will prevent joining until the map is generated and loaded.

 

So, 20k obviously takes a very long time to generate, the time goes up exponentially as the total km size does but the only technical limitation would be the hardware generating the map.

 

The reason we don't just load you in then generate as you go is that when making roads, placing towns, and generating other things; a lot of data has to exist. The map is put together in layers and that's done on a world level. It's not something that can be skipped around and is slower when done in such a manner. Now rwg maps run as fast as navezgane as far as chunk load times and that is something we've wanted for a long time. No special code during run time for random maps is a good thing.

 

The depth of editing that can be done to a randomly generated map after the fact now is awesome. You can change player spawns, move POIs, add new pois, add new roads, remove roads, edit the height map, etc. All things in rwg are accessible in the world folder just like with nav.

 

I wouldn't take away the ability to have large maps, that's something I also love. RWG is my baby after all. Don't panic and rest well in the fact that you won't be hard limited to 8k and that I've actually added more moddability with this change.

 

That does seem awesome, gets me really excited. I understand RGW is hard, but for some reason whenever I settle down then close after the point of no return (at least for 40 days or so) I find this weird road/path that either has a height drop or a weird slant or stuff. Thats ok if I pass it once while exploring, but in my home area I would be tempted to fix it (for instance in my current game the path toward the lakeside trader i leave near is very steep slanted while an only slightly longer road could graciously curve around the lump in the way and look pretty natural. Last bit also has path at such a slant you'd drop off riding it (its ok in places, the apocalypse after all but near a trader you'd expect that 'maintained')

then followed by this weird bump 3 block up for the actual POI. It would be wonderful to be able to fix that ♥♥♥♥ with map edits - at least near places youll visit frequently like homebase and trader.

 

so question: is this only in 'generate mode' or can it be done later?

 

Any clue/hint on how to do that? I haven't really looked at xml edits or file structures yet. - Elaborate please if/when you can

 

Picking your spawn place sounds kewl too. Get dropped in weird stupid places on spawn too often. I play dead is dead SP usually so to give me at least a fighting chance dropping myself NOT on the edge of wasteland and being run down by a pack of dogs in the first 10 minutes would be great.

[KeiraR]

Also, yes, a dropdown of various sizes was already planned. Default of 8k.

 

Like I suggested on page 3.

Alright then, problem solved, case closed, crisis averted, on to the next one.

[Ladarian]

Couldn't they ship experimental with a half dozen pre-generated maps?

 

It might possibly alleviate the rage from some folks upset with generation times should it even be an issue.

 

Aditionally they could be test-only maps.

 

If folks want to report bugs they must be using one of these maps. Change the maps for every patch to force a new save which is also a problem every patch.

 

Basically force the folks who wanna actually be useful to follow the testing rules and let everyone else do their thing with the consequence of having no legit ability to complain.

 

That was way more than i intended.

 

In Pimps We Trust

[bloom_meister]

If you really think playing 7d2d on a big map with a lot of players makes it a "COD, rust whatever" clone... then you are blind.

7d2d is a great game. And I personally dont even interact with other players most of the time. I simply like the threat (and the possibility) of coming across others. I wanna show ppl my builds. I wanna be scared when looting a city because I dont know if I might get shot in the head...

 

How can you say that, because I like to play 7d2d like that, that I "dont understand how its meant to play".

Do you think Skyrim shopkeepers were meant to be blind when they had a bucket on their heads?

Do you think ANY gamedev writes on the cover: "PLAY IT THIS WAY OR YOU ARE JUST A COD FANBOY!"

 

No obviously not. Because that is not what a game is. Everyone plays it differently.

 

 

What Viktor said.

[Cadamier]

<EDIT: HEAVY SNIP>

For dedi owners it will prevent joining until the map is generated and loaded.

 

We're totally fine with that! Since Admins can generate the map before letting everyone join!

 

Thank you and have a nice day!

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Couldn't they ship experimental with a half dozen pre-generated maps?

 

It might possibly alleviate the rage from some folks upset with generation times should it even be an issue.

 

Aditionally they could be test-only maps.

 

If folks want to report bugs they must be using one of these maps. Change the maps for every patch to force a new save which is also a problem every patch.

 

Basically force the folks who wanna actually be useful to follow the testing rules and let everyone else do their thing with the consequence of having no legit ability to complain.

 

That was way more than i intended.

 

In Pimps We Trust

 

Interesting Ideas Ladarian!

[Alphado-Jaki]

new random gen world seeds for ALPHA 17 thread may distributes seed_name with pre-generated world data.

[Menace312]

new random gen world seeds for ALPHA 17 thread may distributes seed_name with pre-generated world data.

 

I was just thinking that!

 

For me it's not really an issue if it took 1hour to generate a new map. I rarely restart, and if it means smoother gameplay, I'm all for it.

 

I do see how this would be an annoyance for those, that restart a lot. And perhaps server owners.

[TheStoryteller01]

I wouldn't mind longer map building times as long as the preview stays as fast as now.

 

For purposes of testing prefabs, biomes and RPG mixer stuff I have a clone of the game installed where literally NOTHING spawns, except for the things I test

[TheProphet]

I dont mind it to be as big as possible, i would wait, but i would hate map wipes often, so try to not force wipes on servers with newer updates unless 100% necessary, also try to mainain compatibility.

[TheProphet]

I have been DYING for this. Spending weeks as an admin building community bridges over vast bodies of water is a pain. You ROCK SIR!

 

I hope admins don't start ruining the vanilla experience now with their annoying tendency to overbuild stuff.

[TheProphet]

We're totally fine with that! Since Admins can generate the map before letting everyone join!

 

Thank you and have a nice day!

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

Interesting Ideas Ladarian!

 

Can someone tell me if client side you will need to wait ages too, or only the person that hosts the server has to wait?

 

For example let's say I make an huge 24-hour-generation map, and host the server.

 

New players will need to wait 24 hours? Because obviously, this is a failure and nobody will play. Not even 10 minutes of wait, no one will wait 10 minutes except hardcore gamers.

 

I assumed only the person generating the map has to wait, then once it's generated, players join as usual.

 

Btw, wouldn't it be better that the map gets generated as you join? If you join and you are 0,0, then what's the problem with inmediately joining and then as you play around 0,0 since you just started and you'll be slow, the map is generating around you. Or this would be too laggy for the player?

[Wamplet]

How large is an 8kx8k map in hard drive space?

 

Does generating the map produce all of the regions on the hard drive?

 

As an example, I had a 16.4 map with 2 players with 240 regions and it uses about 1.6gb. I'm not sure how many regions there are in total, but from what it looks like, it generates region data when i travel to a new region in the map.

 

Just wondering if that will change and if generating the map makes a certain region size count of data for the map or if it loads all of it on the hard drive.

[SylenThunder]

For a fully explored map on a clean generation with the current default 10k radius circle, the region files are about 11.4GB. This will vary some based on city density in the seeds.

I have had maps on servers run as high as 30GB after a lot of player activity.

 

I could do some calculations based on that if you want. Right now I still need a cup of coffee in order to do maths.

 

 

Looking at the poll, it's interesting that only one person so far has selected a map size similar to the current default.

[meganoth]

Can someone tell me if client side you will need to wait ages too, or only the person that hosts the server has to wait?

 

I assumed only the person generating the map has to wait, then once it's generated, players join as usual.

 

I'm sure the generating is done completely on the server, like it is done in A16 too. I.e. whether dynamically generated or pregenerated, everything is done on the server.

 

The game generated slightly different maps on linux than on windows in A16, probably because of small differences in the floating point number implementation (i.e. rounding). Now if each client did its own map generation, these differences would make a multiplayer game with mixed linux- and windows-machines show discrepancies I haven't observed at all.

 

Btw, wouldn't it be better that the map gets generated as you join? If you join and you are 0,0, then what's the problem with inmediately joining and then as you play around 0,0 since you just started and you'll be slow, the map is generating around you. Or this would be too laggy for the player?

 

Yes, should have been possible to have a background job that slowly but continually generates the map in the background, even for area that isn't just discovered. Like the command some server owners use, only that the command works at top speed which leads to lag. No idea why they didn't do this. Maybe they wanted to completely remove those corner cases where the server needs to generate area for the players as they move simultaneously into new terrain leading to lag spikes.

[Spectral Force]

It is separate from the game. It will be more like what the map generator that we have now is but instead of generating a map to preview the world you will be generating the world itself. So you could set it to generating on one computer and do something else on another computer. At the end of the generating you don't spawn into the world and start playing. Instead a random map named for a county other than Navezgane will appear in a list of maps with Navezgane. So instead of choosing either Navezgane or RGW in the options menu you will now select from a list of named maps that will be faux counties of Arizona. Eventually you could have a dozen or more different maps to choose from limited only by your storage capacity.

 

Starting a new game in random gen and generating a random gen map have been the same process, but in A17 they will be separate processes.

 

I'm not keen on the new way to "preview" a map. I check out seeds before creating them on my dedi, so now instead of waiting just a few minutes for a size 5 preview, I have to wait an hour and generate the world twice? We still need some kind of previewer that's not generating the world. I can't think I'm the only one who does this.

[Alphado-Jaki]

How large is an 8kx8k map in hard drive space?

 

Does generating the map produce all of the regions on the hard drive?

 

As an example, I had a 16.4 map with 2 players with 240 regions and it uses about 1.6gb. I'm not sure how many regions there are in total, but from what it looks like, it generates region data when i travel to a new region in the map.

 

Just wondering if that will change and if generating the map makes a certain region size count of data for the map or if it loads all of it on the hard drive.

 

Navezgane, whose size is approximately 4kx4k, is about 500MB, so I assume pregen-map is 4 times of it, 2GB.

[Jackelmyer]

Couldn't they ship experimental with a half dozen pre-generated maps?

 

It might possibly alleviate the rage from some folks upset with generation times should it even be an issue.

 

Aditionally they could be test-only maps.

 

If folks want to report bugs they must be using one of these maps. Change the maps for every patch to force a new save which is also a problem every patch.

 

Basically force the folks who wanna actually be useful to follow the testing rules and let everyone else do their thing with the consequence of having no legit ability to complain.

 

That was way more than i intended.

 

In Pimps We Trust

 

Later in this thread some are estimating the size of the pre-genned maps could be roughly 2gb of data. So if you want 6 pre-genned RWG style maps, you'd need to potentially download 12gb of data. Maybe they could be compressed and decompressed and copied on initial load? Buuuut... Then you may have compression errors adding to the bug lists. We'd also be adding additional "load" times for the first time launch of the game to decompress and copy the files.

 

There's always going to be trade offs. The most ideal is likely to further optimize the World Generation process if possible.

 

I think it may be better to have Maps added like mods. And give players the option to download pregenned maps. It's not an unheard of concept. Kind of old school. But still not unheard of. Whether they're "AddOn's" on console or Workshop on PC.

 

I think a nice feature to work on is the Server Selection in Multiplayer. Add a "Server Details" screen that allows server hosts to add in more detail about their server and what it may take to get setup. Additional URL's, etc.

 

This way, you can have your custom server, vanilla if you want with just a PreGenned Map, an option to post your map to the WorkShop would be great straight from 7D2D, and provide links to your Map, and if you have mods or a website dedicated to your server, you can put in links to where players need to download content from.

 

<shrug> Lots of options for TFP to choose from I suppose.

 

 

EDIT: "Added Like Mod's" - Do not read as "Make them mods". Simply suggesting that the maps be added to a place where people can store pre-genned maps. And also where people can download the pregenned maps as needed. Not suggesting that Pre-Genned maps turn a server into a "Modded Server".

[Jackelmyer]

Can someone tell me if client side you will need to wait ages too, or only the person that hosts the server has to wait?

 

For example let's say I make an huge 24-hour-generation map, and host the server.

 

New players will need to wait 24 hours? Because obviously, this is a failure and nobody will play. Not even 10 minutes of wait, no one will wait 10 minutes except hardcore gamers.

 

I assumed only the person generating the map has to wait, then once it's generated, players join as usual.

 

Btw, wouldn't it be better that the map gets generated as you join? If you join and you are 0,0, then what's the problem with inmediately joining and then as you play around 0,0 since you just started and you'll be slow, the map is generating around you. Or this would be too laggy for the player?

 

Hmm... I'd like to know as well. My guess is we'll have to download the entire map before playing. So in theory, you could be stuck downloading 2gb and maybe somewhere around 10gb of map data before playing (20kmx20km, maybe more than 10gb?).

 

As Kinyajuu said, the map is fully generated before you play. So it runs just like NAV's. Which, is actually awesome and a double edged sword I suppose. Though as a developer, I can see siding with the option to increase a roughly one time Map Generation, one time download of a map, etc, for the benefit of a better running game. Makes sense.

 

 

My biggest concern is TFP's file transfer processes. How streamlined are they? Do they manage progress well? File integrity checking at various points through the transfer to ensure the whole map isn't transferred if the first 1gb was corrupted on transfer? Is there compression enabled? How is bandwidth managed? Can I render a 7D2D server unusable by simply having 5 new players join the game and lose all of my bandwidth?

 

These are some of the problems that people are going to run into, especially on dedicated game server hosting sites which, I believe a lot of people use. Which, could actually end up getting TFP into hot water with these providers. Usually, I think, the providers will allow high CPU and I/O usage for a period of time. But frequent high Network Bandwidth demands can become a real problem. If a provider has 20 people subscribed to their service and they're getting 4,000-10,000 new players onto those subscribed servers, could be something like 8 terabytes to 20 terabytes of data transferred. And that's only if each player has to transfer just once. What happens if they clear their map trying to fix bugs? That's... not exactly a tiny amount of data transferred. Not gargantuan by any means. But... noticeable by an ISP type provider who likely pays close attention to where all their bandwidth is going.

[Jackelmyer]

One other thing. Hey Roland. I think you have at least two camps that will really skew this pull.

 

"How long are you willing to wait to start a new map locally on your computer for solo play or playing with a friend or two?"

 

"How long are you willing to wait to start a new map on your hosted server?" - Assuming that map generation is going to be a part of the Server Start Up procedure as it has been.

 

Hosted? Pft. Take all day. What's one more day. Provided... We're not experiencing frequent issues with map generation failing or starting out corrupted.

 

Playing Solo or with a few friends connecting to my machine? Um. We kinda wanted to start after work today... Sooo... <10 min would be great.

 

 

Tough to poll as a single question. Just a thought.

[Roland]

No. I just think you don't understand how it works which isn't your fault. There is no difference for map generation whether you play SP, MP hosted, or MP dedicated server.

 

The map is generated before hand. It is separate from loading your game to play. You go into the main menu and select map generator and it doesn't care how you intend to use that map. It just generates it and names it so as to hide the actual seed.

 

THEN after the map is all done you start a game using that map and it will function exactly as Navezgane does now. Navezgane will just be one map name among many once you've taken the time to generate several maps.

 

So as long as you plan ahead and make the map long before you get all the guys together to play they will not experience any longer than normal load times than for a map like Navezgane. Now if you don't plan ahead and you have to generate the map while everyone is sitting and waiting for you to get your stuff together it could be a very long wait indeed depending on the size you do.

 

So, long story short, the poll is fine because there is just one generation and it is a separate process from loading a game to play and it doesn't care how you plan to use the map it generates.

[KingSlayerGM]

Hey Roland,

 

any news on that rumor that TFP would pregenerate a few maps to be ready when you first start the game?