VulpesHilarianu Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 One of the things I've noticed running a single man random gen world with two hour days, default block hardness, and sixteen zombie horde nights, is by day forty nine things start becoming a bit too strong. By that time I'm usually around GameStage one thousand, have upgraded the rifle skill to at least three, have at least fifty skill with the bow, and have at least a level five hundred compound bow and hunting rifle. At that point I'm getting ferals pretty regularly as sleepers, with a few radiated zombies giving me a nice surprise. Challenging, but still something I can deal with even on horde night. But by day sixty three when I'm usually close to GameStage fifteen hundred it becomes a slog to play. The recent day sixty three bloodmoon horde tore through my non-reinforced steel exterior wall that was two thick before I had managed to thin them out. In about a minute and a half they were inside and using eachother as fodder to get over the spikes while the last line of defense shotgun turrets shot at them. That's just ridiculous AI block DPS to deal with for single player. What's even worse is when you're going around looting (both in singleplayer and multiplayer), and getting entire houses full of just radiated feral wights, radiated fat cops, biker zombies, and military zombies. All for a freakin' kitchen full of metal cans and empty jars. I believe the sleeper system needs to be adjusted to work with your GameStage and location so that high-level special zombies like that only appear in places like Vick Garrison's pawn shop, the hotel, Shotgun Messiah, Working Stiffs, the multistory Crack A Book, and office buildings. Places where there's a lot of POI-specific loot containers with mid or end-game loot. Going into a random adobe house and seeing two radiated fat cops that are bound to explode and destroy all the cabinets and dressers around them makes it a non-viable strategy to bring anything other than the AK-47 or exploding crossbow bolts. All because your GameStage is high, and completely disregarding the current POI type. It irks me, because POI-specific spawns are a thing. Zombie nurses and hazardous workers in the hospitals for example, construction workers in the oil refinery, and zombie bikers and zombie strippers in the Boobie Trap. To have these radiated feral wights or radiated feral spider zombies spawn in basic structures like the log cabin or trailer home is a big flaw to me. For new players joining or those that haven't logged in in a while this spawn system is just unfair to them, because they go in looking for clothes or some water and end up wasting ammunition that's far more valuable. That is if they're not killed outright because they weren't able to prepare to deal with the high threat level. For stealth characters who use silent weapons like the compound bow and the crossbow it becomes a question of whether you're lucky and can land those two or three consecutive headshots fast enough without the zombie screwing it up when they stand and rotate like a music box figurine to face you. Because otherwise they start running after you swinging wildly, and it becomes nearly impossible to deal with them without waking up the others and causing a rush. In summary by late game looting's more luck than skill, and base defense becomes a question of whether or not you've got enough active defenses because block health doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Please use paragraphs, I'm interested but it hurts my eyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VulpesHilarianu Posted June 10, 2018 Author Share Posted June 10, 2018 Sorry, I'm sleep deprived. I'll edit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 - Block health indeed doesn't matter. We also make huge megabases with 1-4 players. But if you don't rush towards them on horde night. It will take about 2-3 minutes before the first wall is down. That's why I suggest very kindly that they either reduce zombie attack speed VS blocks or rude the damage the special zombies do vs blocks. - The game stage on the one hand makes sense, because you are lvled and have better equipment and guns etc. However that is not always the case. And when you don't have a blue shotgun or higher, it will get very hard to kill a feral radiated cop because their HP regen is just plain silly. I like the idea of more spawn specific locations though. And to not have feral fat cops spawn inside a random shack. I"ve had 8 of them spawn inside a cabin once. Was quite the blast. I love the idea of feral radiated stuff. But their hp regen is off the charts. That's why most stuff can't kill them. Just give them more raw base hp instead. You're right about the music box figurines. It's very annoying and hard to combat such an AI. Whereas normal melee combat is very ezmode. That's one of the biggest flaws I see in running zombies (IMO) the twirling zombies. Batman, EDIT: Welcome to the forums! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Yes to all. It isn't balanced yet. Since TFP's plan seems to be to have a game that can be played at least to level 200, I assume they have to and will look at that before release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippy0330 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 One of the things I've noticed running a single man random gen world with two hour days, default block hardness, and sixteen zombie horde nights, is by day forty nine things start becoming a bit too strong. By that time I'm usually around GameStage one thousand, have upgraded the rifle skill to at least three, have at least fifty skill with the bow, and have at least a level five hundred compound bow and hunting rifle. At that point I'm getting ferals pretty regularly as sleepers, with a few radiated zombies giving me a nice surprise. Challenging, but still something I can deal with even on horde night. But by day sixty three when I'm usually close to GameStage fifteen hundred it becomes a slog to play. The recent day sixty three bloodmoon horde tore through my non-reinforced steel exterior wall that was two thick before I had managed to thin them out. In about a minute and a half they were inside and using eachother as fodder to get over the spikes while the last line of defense shotgun turrets shot at them. That's just ridiculous AI block DPS to deal with for single player. What's even worse is when you're going around looting (both in singleplayer and multiplayer), and getting entire houses full of just radiated feral wights, radiated fat cops, biker zombies, and military zombies. All for a freakin' kitchen full of metal cans and empty jars. You literally just described everything that is right with a tower defense game called 7 days to die, where every 7 days, you have to tower defend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 You literally just described everything that is right with a tower defense game called 7 days to die, where every 7 days, you have to tower defend. Every tower defense game I have played had a power progression of the player that kept in step with the power progression of the incoming horde. I don't see that in 7days. You normally have an AK47 after three weeks (probably too early), but the enemies get harder every week after that. And I don't see the player progress in an similar way to the zombies after that. In later stages it becomes an atrition race where the player looses simply because he looses interest in repairing the same structures again and again and the hunt for ammunition is the only driving force to go out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 gameStage = playerLevel + playerLevel * (daysSurvived * daysAliveDifficultyBonus + gameDifficultyMultiplier ) So if you die then the days survived reset to zero and start counting up again which should significantly reduce your gamestage. Also, going into options and reducing the difficulty will also reduce the speed at which it ramps up. So the real question is are you playing dead is dead and are you willing to change the game difficulty? Because if your answer is “no - yes” then (unless gamestages is bugged) you should have a real solution within your power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 For most players who don't die anymore it does feel like you'are being punished for being to good though. Getting crazy horde nights with 10+ radiated feral cops alone etc. And if you still don't die then, you're being punished with a HEFTY repair bill and or ammunition replenishments. The loot they drop still is nowhere near good enough to compensate for the troubles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menace312 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 For most players who don't die anymore it does feel like you'are being punished for being to good though. Getting crazy horde nights with 10+ radiated feral cops alone etc. And if you still don't die then, you're being punished with a HEFTY repair bill and or ammunition replenishments. The loot they drop still is nowhere near good enough to compensate for the troubles. I'm reading between the lines here, but it seems your hinting towards leveled loot... I hope that never happens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 I'm reading between the lines here, but it seems your hinting towards leveled loot... I hope that never happens... 0 hints for lvled loot. But I would like a mega horde to drop something of value. There's a difference Not just crap I immediately scrap or drop. Otherwise , whats the point of fighting the horde? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menace312 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 0 hints for lvled loot. But I would like a mega horde to drop something of value. There's a difference Not just crap I immediately scrap or drop. Otherwise , whats the point of fighting the horde? The point would be: Survival... I dont think (or hope) TFP would make the game give a reward for clearing a bunch of zombies outright... But with the new quest system, I bet there are going to be quest like: Kill these zombies, and I'll give you dukes. Or: Survive hoard night with no resurrections, and I'll give you "blank"... A better way of catering to these kinds of concerns I think... But that's just my opinion of cause... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Unless hordes will give something usefull, or serve any purpose what so ever. I'll just continue bypassing them with base design or simply running away on minibike. Would already help a lot if your defenses' kills count as your own for exp etc. - Since the digging aspect is still unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menace312 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Unless hordes will give something usefull, or serve any purpose what so ever. I'll just continue bypassing them with base design or simply running away on minibike. Would already help a lot if your defenses' kills count as your own for exp etc. - Since the digging aspect is still unknown. Well... That's assuming you are still able to use any of those strategies... (Even without the digger). I think faatal would have a thing or two to say about this. Or code as it were Edit: I think Gazz is our man, if we wanna learn about rewards and quest rewards specifically... So Gazz: Will there be any generic reward quests in A17? Like kill 10 zombies, and you get dukes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Currently designing something efficient, but oh so ugly from the top view :S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greil Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Unless hordes will give something usefull, or serve any purpose what so ever. I'll just continue bypassing them with base design or simply running away on minibike. Would already help a lot if your defenses' kills count as your own for exp etc. - Since the digging aspect is still unknown. I agree that the hordes need to offer some reward beyond congratulations you survived. Is having zombies be the only source of experience too lame? Would force you to fight and also look forward to the horde night as they would be a huge boost to your level allowing you to progress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eidobunny Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 I think we should bring up this issue again once we see what A17 has in store for us. Also idk about you guys but I feel fairly rewarded by the zombie loot on 7th nights. Guns, ammo, tons of scrap, bones... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greil Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 I think we should bring up this issue again once we see what A17 has in store for us. Also idk about you guys but I feel fairly rewarded by the zombie loot on 7th nights. Guns, ammo, tons of scrap, bones... Later stages of the game they feel annoying because the loot doesn’t exceed the ridiculous cost of repairs and ammo. Getting guns when I’m rocking several near 600 quality guns isn’t doing a lot for me. And then when you’re sitting there just unloading into bullet sponges that don’t drop enough loot to even come close to supplementing the cost it took to kill them is also lame imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadamier Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Well, this is still Alpha... So basically "Proof of concept" is what's going on. So... Here are a bunch of things... Mostly - which I found totally helpful is not to have the forge and other things within your base... If you hang out at your base all the time, then that's another reason why they're there! FYI: You can have a complete set of forges and such sitting out in the open for everyone to see... Screamers will come all the time and just hang out if they don't find 'anyone' there... So "Sniper Roosts" are a must! IE: If you're going to drop a tonne of ores off at your forge jump onto a sniper roost and scope out for the screamers before you drop off the ore or do anything with any of them... Well, I haven't had that much trouble at all. Wither it be SP or MP with 10 of us. The only issues I or we've ever had is when we make a satellite base and aren't prepared... That hasn't happened in a long time. Could it possibly be something wasn't fixed, or there was a flaw in your defenses? Also - I've noticed people just shooting what ever is in their line of sights... What I'm talking about is that because of HP, Damage, etc, but mostly HP zeds do 'x' amount of damage. The Big Guy - Disturbed Tourist - whom 'farts,' 'burps' and belches a lot is a 'tough' one. He's got a lot of HP - so that means he can go through 'a lot' of spikes without dieing... Others almost die after one spike... The tourist damages the spikes along the way - making it easier for 'everyone else following' in his wake. If you watch for this its clear at about day 14... So prioritizing your targets can help mitigate 'base damage'/'base repairs.' As for the POI spawns... Haven't seen 'all' nor 'most' POI's generate Rad-Ferals... Only 'some' here and there and not even enough worth really mention. This is in Vanilla and Valmod and War of the Walkers and Darkness Falls: They mostly come out at night... You are playing vanilla aren't you? So far I've gotten my Gamestage up towards 1786 or so, and haven't seen these issues, but this is mostly SP since I really don't check it in MP. Later on is when 'optimization' comes into play... And yes - many things need to be 'linked'/'fixed'/'and/or adjusted' within the game, that's when 'all of this should happen.' From my experience - there isn't 'enough' of the 'bigger' zeds Power to the Zombies!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 I agree that the hordes need to offer some reward beyond congratulations you survived. Is having zombies be the only source of experience too lame? Would force you to fight and also look forward to the horde night as they would be a huge boost to your level allowing you to progress? Interesting idea. - - - Updated - - - I think we should bring up this issue again once we see what A17 has in store for us. Also idk about you guys but I feel fairly rewarded by the zombie loot on 7th nights. Guns, ammo, tons of scrap, bones... ammo? I don't find it appealing when you find 0-100 slugs, when you have to spend 600+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eidobunny Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Later stages of the game they feel annoying because the loot doesn’t exceed the ridiculous cost of repairs and ammo. Getting guns when I’m rocking several near 600 quality guns isn’t doing a lot for me. And then when you’re sitting there just unloading into bullet sponges that don’t drop enough loot to even come close to supplementing the cost it took to kill them is also lame imo Take the ammo out of the guns and sell the guns / parts to the trader to buy more ammo / etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eidobunny Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Interesting idea. - - - Updated - - - ammo? I don't find it appealing when you find 0-100 slugs, when you have to spend 600+ Your horde nights sound insane. I try to cut down a lot of my ammo costs with wooden spikes, which do a surprising amount of damage to a horde for relatively cheap. Electric fences and blade traps are great non-consumable damage sources as well. Even in later gamestages I try to use my crossbow when possible and stick to AK-47 for radiated cops/wights. Usually I spend about 200-400 bullets on a rough night and make most of that back, plus get some expensive things like guns and rockets and radiation and military gear. 5-figure dukes in a night usually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Your horde nights sound insane. I try to cut down a lot of my ammo costs with wooden spikes, which do a surprising amount of damage to a horde for relatively cheap. Electric fences and blade traps are great non-consumable damage sources as well. Even in later gamestages I try to use my crossbow when possible and stick to AK-47 for radiated cops/wights. Usually I spend about 200-400 bullets on a rough night and make most of that back, plus get some expensive things like guns and rockets. We started with wood spikes 3-4 rows. Then electric fences all around + steel spikes in the middle. The thing is that you have to kite radiated feral cops etc away from everything because they'll simply rip through it all. HP regen being insane is one reason. 2nd was the weird glitching zombies so their heads would go inside the wall, or inside another zombies' body. And non head shots take even longer. (Devs Neverrrrrrrr talk about this bug) Which annoys me very very mucho. I think at the "final" gamestage all defences were to be crapped upon except some steel spikes. I can't spoil too much or the devs will counter it again. And at the end we had used 200-300 sniper rounds + 200-300 shotgun shells. And we usually use the X-bow to oneshot the weaker zombies. Aaandd I had jumped down at the near end to smack them with my spiked club. By that time it's usually about 4-5 feral radiated cops running around + some feral radiated wights and some other tough zombies. Doges are the worst though as their hitbox range is huge. So even at the end 1 dog can take you down. EDIT: X-bow not X-box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eidobunny Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Yeah the biggest problem with a horde that big is losing bodies because the fight went on so long that some of them got shot or fell and disappeared or replaced another body or just rotted away before you got to them. If you could realistically loot every body it'd probably be worth at least as much as you lost, provided you have a good base design. I guess it's up for debate if you should earn more than you lose almost as a rule, or if 7th nights exist to intentionally set a player back and test them at the highest level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Yeah the biggest problem with a horde that big is losing bodies because the fight went on so long that some of them snip Yeah, you got a good point there. I'd say unless you have several kill zones within your base. 40-60% of the bodies will get shredded by other zombies. The only remaining ones are the weak zombies that died at the first spikes (crap loot) and some special zombies in the end. That's one of the reasons why my kill bases have to be so huge all the time. + I'm currently trying to make a design that does have somewhat of a multiple killzone thing without pathing of newer zombies overlapping the bodies of earlier ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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