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Suggestions to Improve the Game


Wyrda78

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1. Melee Combat and Movement

 

I think simplistic melee combat is fine for this game however there are some changes and some features that could be added that would greatly add to the depth. Firstly, and this is really game breaking, sideways and backwards sprinting. It really is as ridiculous as it sounds and it makes it trivial to kill any zombie, including irradiated wights and packs of dogs by simply sprinting backwards and attacking. Zombies have no hope of killing a player who knows what he's doing and can instantly accelerate in any direction like he's rocket powered. Sideways and backwards sprinting needs to be removed, and player movement acceleration should be decreased slightly. This will make the player less mobile and more vulnerable to your average zombie, especially at night. In place of sprinting there should be a dodge feature, so when the player holds shift and presses and direction other than forwards, he will execute a dodge in that direction, and quickly move a tile space as to dodge a zombie attack.

 

Blocking - there should be a block feature, cross between minecraft and Chivalry: Medieval Warfare. What that entails is that you will block by pressing RMB, and for a short time after the block animation has been initiated it will block all damage from zombie attacks and the player will take a hit to his stamina instead. After that short time, holding block will reduce damage and stagger chance, but not negate it completely.

 

Kicking. If anyone has played Dark Messiah of Might and Magic they will know how fun this mechanic can be. You should be able to kick or push zombies, to push them of ledges and in to spikes, or simply to get some room from a zombie that has suprised you. Kicking/pushing should cost stamina and have a cooldown, and you could invest perk points to be able to kick better and to be able to effect larger zombies.

 

 

 

2. Levelling, difficulty progression, the heatmap and hordes

 

To state clearly: the level of the player should have no effect on the world whatsoever. This is one of the worse sins RPG type games can commit, and that's a levelled world. Did you just get a heap stronger? Then so did everything else. It makes levelling up pointless and there is nothing that destroys a sense of realism, survival and immersion easier. Finding irradiated wights and zombie cops in every diner when I'm a high level does not make the late game better, only more tedious. And even more egregious is - when you're playing on no loot respawns which I think is the best option - having to wait until you are a high level player to loot the gunstores and gunsafes. This just shouldn't be a thing. High level loot should be in treacherous places that are hard to get to like the wasteland or military bases - while places like the gunstore in the snow biome, rather than inexplicable having super tough enemies, should simply not have as much good loot (you can loot is easily? So can (did) everyone else). And new players should have a chance of find cool and high-level weaponry as well as finding tough zombies they aren't equipped to kill.

 

As for the 7th day horde, the difficulty of this should be independent of players level as well. There should be a number of factors which influences the difficulty of the hordes you encounter at your base. Firstly, time. The hordes should get harder as the game goes on, and if you're not at a stage where you can handle it, then tough luck - get better or play on an easier difficulty. The heatmap should also be redone. Instead of just being a ticker than spawns a screamer every time it reaches 100, it should be a numerical values with no cap, and the higher this is the more frequently your base should be attacked, and the stronger the hordes that attack it should be. So for example, you place a furnace and start smelting, and it should at 40 to your heatmap. Turn it off and it will gradually decrease. Add another and it will increase to 78, and every subsequent furnace smelting should add a diminishing heatmap value. Turn them off and your heat gradually decreases. Other things that should increase heat is noise, and block placement/displacement. The more blocks the player places/displaces, the higher heat that area should have - though of course this should be subject to diminishing returns as well. This will make it that your megafortress attract more zombies than you do camping in a POI.

 

As for the hordes you randomly encounter, firstly, they should spawn further away. Secondly hordes like dogs shouldn't spawn on every 5th day and be predictable. It should be random and dependent on the heat value. There player should have a heat value that is influenced by how much noise he is making and how much he smells, and areas should heave heat values. Area heat value should determine how many zombies are in the area in the first place, how tough they are and what the chances are zombies spawn in the area in general. Player heat value should determine the chances of the hordes spawning and homing in on the player's location. Cities and factories should automatically have high area heat values while plains and fields have almost none. There should be items (such as deer scent) that reduce the player's heat that results from his smell, and there should be stealth perks that reduces the noise and heat increases caused by running and moving.

 

 

 

3. Traders

 

A lot has been said on how overpowered traders are so I will only touch on that briefly - it's way too easy to get money from traders and they restock way too fast. It's a zombie apocalypse, so it doesn't make sense that traders are booming hubs of business that constantly cycle through stock. Traders should only restock once a week or less and when they restock it should only be partial. As for how to balance the price of goods, well of course due to the economic calculation problem it's impossible for a central planner to perfectly allocate the price of goods, so what would be ideal is that data is collected on what people people buy and sell, and a system automatically increased the price of a good the more it is bought, and decease it the more it is sold. This would be the best way to balance the market prices.

 

The other point I want to make about trading is that traders should not be invulnerable (yes, on multiplayer servers server owners should be able to make traders indestructible if they so desire). Traders should have to have guards and turrets to defend their base against zombies just the same as a player does. Occasionally, and I stress occasionally as this could quickly become annoying, the player should get a quest to help defend the traders base from an impending zombie attack. If he doesn't accept the quest there should be a chance that the trader is destroyed. If the trader is destroyed, there should be a small chance that the player the player gets a quest to help rebuild the trader by collecting building materials and traps.

 

 

 

4. Base Defence; traps, underground and stilted bases

 

There has been controversy about this issue, however I posit the notion that 7 Days to Die is a survival game, thus survival should be challenging, thus it should not be trivially easy to dispose of the games mean threat which is the 7 Day Hordes by digging 20 feet underground. Listening to some psychology lectures on Youtube an interesting fact that I remember hearing is that completely different neural circuits are used when aggression is initiated upon you, compared to when you initiate aggression (even when the threat is the same). The point I'm making about this is that in 7 Days to Die, unlike many other games where you attack the boss, 7 Days to Die is, and should be, a game where you are attacked whether you like it or not. That is what makes the game unique and gives it a foreboding atmosphere. It should make the player afraid. So I think it greatly detracts from the game that zombies can't attack downwards. It's already a given that zombies can sense the player wherever he is, and tear through concrete to get him, so it doesn't seem like that big if a leap that the zombies should be able to claw through earth. Players can disable that if they wish. But I do not like feeling invulnerable every time I go underground. There should be a threat of zombies collapsing through the tunnel and it being like the tunnels described in World War Z. Although I can realise why people not wanting hordes of zombies digging gigantic sinkholes in the earth - there should be a type of digging zombie that is good at digging through dirt and stone, to create tunnels that other zombies can follow though.

 

Also, if zombies cannot reach the player because he is too high, the zombies should start attacking the blocks holding up the base instead of uselessly milling under the player. Zombies don't necessarily need an advanced knowledge of structural integrity to do this, and considering that zombies were once human, it makes sense that they might have a trace of their old intelligences.

 

Another idea that I have is that is multiple zombies die in one spot, this should create a gore block that rests above traps instead of getting destroyed. This will start making paths of spikes, clog up traps, death pits and spinning blades, and climb up piles of gore to get over walls. I think this is an easy and realistic way to make base defence more nuanced and enjoyable, so that zombies can't be defeated by just luring them into a bunch of spikes.

 

Also, zombies need better pathfinding. If there is an open door they should go through it instead of attacking the blocks around it like they sometimes do. And zombies should not all try to get through doors, but they shouldn't all go to attack the door, it makes zombie behaviour too easy to anticipate.

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This seems well thought out and well intentioned, but these suggestions are far from new. Perhaps go poke around the Pimp Dreams forum for awhile and you'll see what I mean.

 

The answer to most of what you've written here is ALPHA. The Pimps have all of this stuff in mind already, but they've got their own set of priorities in terms of what gets worked on and what they consider vital.

 

I don't mean this to come off harsh, but we've had this exact thread many times around here.

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5. Hardcore features and other gameplay options

 

-There should be a timer to place objects on the ground. I realise this game is influenced by Minecraft but I think it's fair to say that this game should not have things such as nerdpolling, instantly barricading yourself or placing traps in the path of enemies that are chasing you.

 

Also, there should be more options available to the player at the start of the game

 

-respawn mode, save every 8th day or dead is dead mode

-no map or compass until you find them in game, and no magic minimap markers

-150% block hardness

-no HUD or crosshairs. If you're low on health your screen goes red. If you or low on stamina you start puffing

-no building in the presence of zombies

 

 

 

6. Points about Zombies, loot and other miscellaneous points

 

Zombies have far too much HP disparity. I like survivalist difficulty because otherwise I feel like zombies go down easier than a Hollywood extra after taking a 9mm to the gut. however irradiated zombies have waaay too much HP. To the point where it takes 2-3 minutes of constant headshots to take down an irradiated cop. That doesn't make the game harder, it only makes it more tedious. I don't mind if zombies are tanky, but they shouldn't feel like a raid boss in an MMO. Guns should feel like they have stopping power, and even the toughest zombies should go down in 3 or so headshots from high-powered rifles. Meanwhile, normal zombie HP needs to be buffed because they go down way too quickly, they are undead after all and even normal human have survived after taking 20+ bullet wounds, including shots to the head.

 

Zombies should also have a much bigger aggro radius. I can shoot zombies from 20 metres away and they don't realise I'm there. If I shoot my gun in a area like a city, I should have zombies coming in from every direction. Zombies should be able to see me from much farther away.

 

Zombie dogs should not be able to climb ladders. They are formidable enough.

 

The boulders above ground should not contain iron, coal, nitrate, or lead. In the early game if I want iron I should have to smelt scrap metal and if I want other resources I should have to hunt down above-ground resource nodes. If I want a good supply of specialised resources, I should have to invest in a deep mine. Trying to find resources should not be trivialised in such a way that I can get every resource as soon as I have crafted a stone axe. In fact, even lategame you harvesting boulders is more profitable than mining underground. This should not be the case and boulders should give stone only.

 

Don't give me 7 casino tokens as loot. There should be a chance that you can find tokens, gunpoweder, bullet casings, nails and other miscellaneous items in a significant amount such as 100 or more as well as pocket change, rather than looking in the loot and debating whether it's worth your time clicking to put the loot into your inventory.

 

Armour should decrease the chance of being maimed, and you should not have to take his to level up your armour skill like it's TESV: Oblivion. My suggestion is that blocking be added, blocking an armour skills are merged and you can level it up by blocking.

 

 

 

Well that's all I can think of for now. I'll probably add more points once more things come to mind. Also keep in mind that I wrote this list because I like the game and want to improve it, rather that it being the case that it's me being overly critical. I realise the game is still in alpha.

 

 

This seems well thought out and well intentioned, but these suggestions are far from new. Perhaps go poke around the Pimp Dreams forum for awhile and you'll see what I mean.

 

The answer to most of what you've written here is ALPHA. The Pimps have all of this stuff in mind already, but they've got their own set of priorities in terms of what gets worked on and what they consider vital.

 

I don't mean this to come off harsh, but we've had this exact thread many times around here.

 

 

I know the game is in alpha (see above paragraph that I didn't get to put in due to character limit). I know not all my ideas are unique, but it's helpful to reiterate certain things to bring them to the forefront of the Pimp's attention. And while I'm sure you've had many threads with suggestions I'm sure I've got a unique or insightful perspective on a couple things at least.

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Many of these suggestions were actually IN the game at one point or another ( eg: 7 day hordes getting harder by day, not level; zombie gore blocks) and were removed for either something else, or to maybe be improved on in the future. Gore blocks were in back in A10 - 11 and were kinda cool, but once you knew enough to have an overhang over your walls to keep zombies from climbing them and breaching, all they did was help your defenses by building up along your walls and making zombies have to break thru them 1st before reaching your walls. They were removed by TFP and replaced by the current (often derpy lol) behavior where Z's try and jump on top of each other to get higher. Not sure if this is on the list of things to revisit int he future.

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Again, I don't want to come off harsh, but you're wrong. We've had ALL of this before. All of it.

 

I doubt you've had suggestion in the exact same way I've put it together. And even if it has been suggested doesn't mean it's at the forefront of the devs' focus. It if were they'd have already removed things such as backwards sprinting which doesn't seem particularly hard to fix. I think talking about the issues iss beneficial to the game rather than what you're implying which is that we should just shut up and not talk about anything.

 

 

Many of these suggestions were actually IN the game at one point or another ( eg: 7 day hordes getting harder by day, not level; zombie gore blocks) and were removed for either something else, or to maybe be improved on in the future. Gore blocks were in back in A10 - 11 and were kinda cool, but once you knew enough to have an overhang over your walls to keep zombies from climbing them and breaching, all they did was help your defenses by building up along your walls and making zombies have to break thru them 1st before reaching your walls. They were removed by TFP and replaced by the current (often derpy lol) behavior where Z's try and jump on top of each other to get higher. Not sure if this is on the list of things to revisit int he future.

 

That could be fixed by allowing NPC to climb up steeper angles, and improving AI so they attack overhangs. I definitely think zombies need to be improved in this area, my base is simply two block high wall with two layers of spikes around and I the zombies can't get in even if I'm not doing anything. I should feel like I need to take an active part in the base defence. Last 7th day horde I lowered my drawbridge so I could fight some zeds because I was getting bored with how ineffectual they are.

 

Something also to keep in mind is that just because the game is changed in a certain way, doesn't mean that change is for the better.

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Oh joy, another long winded post about how the game could be improved... I think MM actually prints these out and uses them as toilet paper when he runs out of the good stuff.

 

And yet it is still 100 times more productive than your post right here.

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Let's stop with all the posts berating the OP for starting an improvement thread. If you agree or disagree with with one of the points then outline why. Otherwise just move along.

 

Sorry, it wasn't my intention to argue or cause controversy. Rather I just wanted to have a conversation about how we can improve the game. If we can talk about issues and come to a general community consensus, that would help the devs a lot, since they actually have to work on the game rather than being able to playtest it all day like we can.

 

I think it's especially important to discuss the game while it's in alpha because it's early in the development process that the general direction of the game is decided. That's essentially what a lot of my post is aimed at, to try and capitalise upon 7DTD's best aspects - survival, immersion and ability to immerse the players in the world and cause emotions of dread and apprehension. Because I don't want to see the game go down the path of arcadey sandbox game.

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It’s not your fault. The old timers just have to realize that the newer members want to have the same conversations that they did when they were fresh to the game. If they are all talked out on these issues they should just go elsewhere and allow those who want to discuss to do so.

 

It is also a different conversation from the past in that it is from an A16 context rather than an A8 or A11 or A14 context.

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1. Melee Combat and Movement

 

I agree with all of your points on this. The question is whether any of this will make the cuts in order to get the game done. The developers have talked in the past about finishing moves and some additional elements to melee combat but they talk about lots of wishes and hopes they have for the game. Reality is that they have limited time and resources. They are currently working on improving player animations as seen from third person so if they were going to add in new moves now would be the time to do it while they are rigging up new animations.

 

 

2. Levelling, difficulty progression, the heatmap and hordes

 

The world leveling along with the player is a matter of personal preference and does not make a game better or worse. Some people like it and some people hate it. But it is a valid and reasonable development route to go. The haters will call it "lazy developing" but I can tell you that it is anything but. This game is not a purely leveled world as other games (that opponents like to reference) in the past. It is a hybrid that I personally think works pretty well. I do think they could work on their tougher enemies having more to them than just being bullet sponges but I disagree that ramping up difficulty must be independent of player level. The most often suggested replacement system is to have areas that are higher difficulty that have tougher enemies and better loot. The game has some of this already and it is planned to incorporate more of this as they continue development with sleepers. The thing is, though, there are weaknesses with this model as well and this system can be gamed quite easily. Personally, I think the developers are on the right track with how they are leveling the world and also how they plan to create areas of greater difficulty that players can attempt "ahead of schedule" or avoid until they are ready for them

 

Current zombie spawning is not the intended final implementation. They are still working on it. They've made some gains in this area such as having environmental zombies spawn lying down forcing them to have to stand up and help reduce the chance of the player seeing them pop into existence. Gazz recently changed the values of some objects that were blocking LOS from zombies to players making it so they could spawn in closer because the game thought the player wouldn't be able to see that zombie spawn in. Part of the issue, however, is lag and this probably more true of hordes than individual spawns. Often the zombie or horde spawns properly at a fair distance but due to lag plus player speed of movement that gap closes too quickly and it appears that the zombie spawned next to the player. These issues should be improved once optimizations start at Beta.

 

I don't believe there is a 5th day dog horde any longer. They can come on any day and your gamestage will cause the chance of them appearing become greater each passing day you've stayed alive.

 

3. Traders

 

Traders aren't done. The plan is that they won't be invulnerable and there won't be a magic repulsing forcefield around them. But not everything needed to protect traders in a more natural way is in the game yet so the forcefield and invulnerability is a placeholder.

 

Economy balancing is among the most difficult tasks there is in a game and it is ongoing. I'm sure they will get to where they want it to be by time the game is finished.

 

4. Base Defence; traps, underground and stilted bases

 

Agreed with underground threats and stilts. Gore blocks were implemented and experimented with through multiple iterations and the developers finally decided to give up on it because they couldn't get it done at a quality level they could live with. Doubtful this is returning. Pathfinding and general AI improvements are high on the dev priority list already.

 

5. Hardcore features and other gameplay options

 

Too soon. They have been consolidating and removing options over the past few alphas because too many options makes it impossible to get clear feedback and get the standard version balancing right. The devs have promised many many settings and options for the release version but until then you have to accomplish it by modding.

 

6. Points about Zombies, loot and other miscellaneous points

 

No disagreements really. They are already working on most of this. Most of what you have brought up is precisely because this is a work in progress and there are still things that haven't been finalized. Stealth is in the process of being overhauled and with that will come changes and improvements to distances at which zombies will aggro, how well they can hear, smell, and see and what player skills and perks can work to mitigate the zombie abilities. We just aren't quite there yet and smell and hearing is completely broken for zombies so stealth currently is pretty much garbage.

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I'd like to emphasise, when I'm talking about the game, mostly I'm talking about my idealised version rather than creating a list of priorities than I'm demanding the developers focus on. I don't really know what the devs are doing, if they are already have the things that I have pointed out of their to-do list then that's all good. To tell you what actually happened though, my computer crashed 3 times while writing this so I got sick of writing an introduction and instead went straight to the point.

 

I'm not really aware of all that's happened with gore blocks, I have save files in 2014-15, and then I've recently come back to playing the game. It'd be a real shame though if they were moved completely, while it will probably take some work to implement them in a workable state I think it's perfectly possible to have them as a functional feature. And while I'm not advocating for an player/zombie "arms race", it seems like a natural way to defeat unrealistic mob-grinder like designs, like having 3x3 pit of spikes that can kill a virtually infinite amount of zombies.

 

 

I appreciate you taking time to give feedback, the only major point of contention I have is about a levelled world. I don't see what adding in levelling adds at all - it reduces the sense of realism, immersion in the world, and the sense of progression, all of which I think are important aspects of 7DTD. And it seems like a win-win scenario to me. New players can go to the easy areas that don't have as much as a threat. Veteran players looking for a challenge can go to the harder zones. Essentially it's allowing the player to determine the amount of challenge they experience in a realistic way, while levelling is an arbitrary means of forcing a constant difficulty on all players. The sense of progression is also important. What's the point of getting stronger if everything else does as well? Levelling destroys the satisfaction a player gets from overcoming a challenge, such as conquering an area to the point that now is trivial for him. He can now broaden his horizon to attack more difficult goals. I didn't really detect any points from you against non-levelled world except for that it can be gamed easily. Well, I'm not really sure that's the case - players should be able to take on high risk for high reward, but even powergamers considered, I'm not sure it's easy to loot places containing packs of wights when you're armed with a bow and stone arrows. And if you can do that, then that indicates you've achieved a degree of skill and knowledge of the game that should allow you to pull of feats like that.

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The problem with zones is that it throws out a meta where as a player you are bypassing areas to explore to go find “appropriate” zones for your level. Then there is the need for visuals to indicate what is a high level vs low level appropriate zone. I’m not suggesting the devs would color cities as red blue yellow and green but pretty much anything they do repetitively around the map will be noticed and be jarring.

 

The bad sort of leveling is when you have weak version of putrid girl, strong version of putrid girl, armored version of putrid girl, strong armored version of putrid girl etc.

 

That isn’t how it is done in this game. This game has new stronger enemies that begin to appear and are not just rehashes of old weaker enemies. This can also be supported lore-wise as a mutating virus.

 

Personally, I want to be able to explore everywhere and not have the world divided up into zones. I want to still be challenged when I’m strong so I appreciate new tougher enemies emerging as I progress.

 

TFP is doing a hybrid system. The wasteland, burnt forest, and snow biomes will be more difficult zones and there will be certain POIs that will be more dangerous and loot will be better in those areas. But they are also utilizing a generally leveling world along with the player to keep the challenge and also make it so that there is no need to skip this area or that area as you explore the world. And as far as loot goes to make the early game easier to balance with the late game.

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  • 4 months later...
The problem with zones is that it throws out a meta where as a player you are bypassing areas to explore to go find “appropriate” zones for your level. Then there is the need for visuals to indicate what is a high level vs low level appropriate zone. I’m not suggesting the devs would color cities as red blue yellow and green but pretty much anything they do repetitively around the map will be noticed and be jarring.

 

The bad sort of leveling is when you have weak version of putrid girl, strong version of putrid girl, armored version of putrid girl, strong armored version of putrid girl etc.

 

That isn’t how it is done in this game. This game has new stronger enemies that begin to appear and are not just rehashes of old weaker enemies. This can also be supported lore-wise as a mutating virus.

 

Personally, I want to be able to explore everywhere and not have the world divided up into zones. I want to still be challenged when I’m strong so I appreciate new tougher enemies emerging as I progress.

 

TFP is doing a hybrid system. The wasteland, burnt forest, and snow biomes will be more difficult zones and there will be certain POIs that will be more dangerous and loot will be better in those areas. But they are also utilizing a generally leveling world along with the player to keep the challenge and also make it so that there is no need to skip this area or that area as you explore the world. And as far as loot goes to make the early game easier to balance with the late game.

 

Sure, there is nothing wrong with going to different areas for different benefits and advantages. Having different geography give different benefits makes the game more dynamic and fun. There's nothing wrong with it being a meta strategy to go to a certain part of the map that is easier at the beginning (and indeed, there are already meta strategies with the current maps that aren't random gen). If you don't like there being an easier area, then you can simply choose not to go there or disable that biome via custom settings or maps, which I think should be an option. And this doesn't mean that later in the game certain biomes will be useless; sure harder biomes like Wasteland may hive you high-level loot, but all biomes will be useful in some way, by providing an abundance of a certain raw resources for example. And going in to an easier area can be a nice relief from being so high-strung from exploring really dangerous areas.

 

Having stronger levels of the same enemy like in Oblivion might break the realism a bit, in gameplay terms its functionally the same as having harder enemies who are also different.

 

In the end is comes down to difference of opinion, but I think most people would appreciate the increased depth of the game that comes from differing biomes where you have to use you knowledge to survive, rather than a constant difficulty level where you can be assured that things won't be too tough until you are ready for them.

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This will make the player less mobile and more vulnerable to your average zombie, especially at night.

That would actually be a big thing. It's almost impossible to die to normal zombies. I usually just die because I did not hear a random zombie dog horde spawn or something like that. Feels more like RNG not like a lack of skill (imho).

 

Blocking - there should be a block feature, cross between minecraft and Chivalry: Medieval Warfare.

But what would I use to block? Shields? My arms? The weapon I'm holding? Different block values?

 

Secondly hordes like dogs shouldn't spawn on every 5th day and be predictable.

Is that always the case? So that dog horde that killed me on day 5 is always there on day 5?

 

 

Listening to some psychology lectures on Youtube an interesting fact that I remember hearing is to claw through earth. Players can disable that if they wish.

I would even say no to that. That's what creative mode is for. If you don't like that zombies attack you, don't play the survival mode. :D

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