Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[meganoth]

i always wonder why does we need two windows with slots one just to show and one is usable. whats the point of having two if there can be just one window. slots under statistics could be usable and the slots on the left removed

 

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Excellent point. When they have time to clean up UI (I think this might be more like a task for beta) this could be a low hanging fruit. The main advantage would be the (noticable) time saved to bring up that window. Also the "assemble" command could be removed completely.

[DaVegaNL]

Guys. You are 'fighting' over something which hasn't even come out yet. Let's see how it works when A17 is released around Halloween.

 

 

 

Hmm. That felt weird. That's usually one of the arguments used against me.

 

Ps. No matter how difficult the developers will make the AI, players will always find a way to exploit it.

[Aldranon]

In a game, I hate wasting any resources: The very opposite of my RL behavior.

 

Of course, throw a real apocalypse at me and I might start saving sandwich bags and lint! The lint goes in the bags, duh!

[Gamida]

All of you who are lamenting how easy it will be to exploit the AI have only your own selves to blame for reading up on how it works. I reject that players who are not in the know would eventually learn to build double thickness on three sides and single thickness on the fourth. That way of building is so outside what is intuitive that the only people who do that are those who have learned how the AI works and are using that knowledge to their advantage (or they were clued in by friends who know).

 

infoinfoinfoinfoinfo......

 

 

Is that how they will work? You can build 3 walls of concrete 5 blocks thick and a single wall of concrete blocks and they will know to go for the single block side?

I was thinking they would go for an individual block that was weaker (maybe from previous damage or of lower durability material such as wood) no matter where it was.

 

Would they only go for the outside wall?

If I made a base with a double wall of concrete blocks on 4 sides and but on west wall I put one wood block in center of inside wall, will they go for that wooden block?

 

Just some things that popped into my head. Apparently driving out things like where I left my wallet and if you don't breath it is not good...

[Roland]

Is that how they will work? You can build 3 walls of concrete 5 blocks thick and a single wall of concrete blocks and they will know to go for the single block side?

I was thinking they would go for an individual block that was weaker (maybe from previous damage or of lower durability material such as wood) no matter where it was.

 

Would they only go for the outside wall?

If I made a base with a double wall of concrete blocks on 4 sides and but on west wall I put one wood block in center of inside wall, will they go for that wooden block?

 

Just some things that popped into my head. Apparently driving out things like where I left my wallet and if you don't breath it is not good...

 

Maybe if your base was 3x3 and only predictably until faatal adds in his advanced features...

[Aldranon]

Just some things that popped into my head. Apparently driving out things like where I left my wallet and if you don't breath it is not good...

 

I think we have the same DNA! I forgot I left my 7d2d character online until he lost over 80 wellness, but he didn't die! Is that a bug?

 

I'm already testing my A17 fort:

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I assume the new zombies are smart enough to read so will ignore the 6 shotgun turrets on the right side that will be shooting them in the head!

 

And the mother of my ideas is my A16/A17 complex of various buildings. The one in the front is my A17 test building.

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[toores]

All of you who are lamenting how easy it will be to exploit the AI have only your own selves to blame for reading up on how it works. I reject that players who are not in the know would eventually learn to build double thickness on three sides and single thickness on the fourth. That way of building is so outside what is intuitive that the only people who do that are those who have learned how the AI works and are using that knowledge to their advantage (or they were clued in by friends who know).

 

Dude, it's not going to be some profound secret. Players will find out easily that if they only managed to upgrade half of the wall before the horde night started, zoumbies attacked the other half.

And once you find that out, it don't need to be intuitive. You'll just have to accept that thats how zombies think in 7d2d.

 

That being said, faatal has repeatedly said that he is working on basics and core for now and will add advanced features second but all of you are acting as if the basic AI features he has revealed are the whole sum of what you will face. Perhaps in A17 that will be true but faatal has distinctly mentioned he is a fan of randomness in zombie behavior and that he will be working in features to make them less predictable but that these are advanced features that will be added in zombie AI 2.0

 

I'm counting on it to get more advanced , I have no doupt in Faatal's competence.

(and of course I have limited information on the topic, so my thought are just based on what i know)

 

Finally, in regards to pathing, faatal has also said that there will be a limited range in how the pathing calculates the optimal path. Aldranon's idea of two separate bases sound to me like they would be beyond the range of the pathing algorithm to really work unless the bases are right next to each other and really really small. Even the one base with three sides double thickness and one side single thickness probably won't work unless you are talking about a very small base. In most cases zombies coming from a direction will stay on that side of your base hitting the weakest blocks on that side and not detecting blocks on the other side of your base unless your base is small enough to be in the range of their pathing.

 

That is good to hear. (must have missed that bit)

 

So please remember that no AI is going to be smarter than human ingenuity and you only have yourself to blame if you spoil it for yourself by following the AI development so closely that you know how to beat it before ever booting up A17 and also that the first iteration is basics and faatal has advanced features planned that will help obfuscate and randomize zombie behavior so that they are not quite as predictable as what many of you are planning on (again provided you aren't using your early access privileges to fully analyze and overcome the AI before ever experiencing it ingame).

 

If i had some videos form MM, I might not be "following the AI development so closely". I'll take whatever fix i can

[sillls]

With all thistalk about wall building and zombies seeking weak points. I would like to remind players that

 

It really IS all about you

 

When zombies attack, they don't care about loot or moats of spikes or anything like that. They only care about one thing. Getting to the food. So unless there is a dear near by they are coming after you.

 

You are the ONE target that they seek and the one best asset to lure them to there destruction.

 

So if you have a door or other block that is going to give way on one side of the fort, the best thing to do is to move to the other side. There is a very good chance that the things will stop pounding on that door and go around to were you are. Moving through log spikes and other traps while doing so.

 

This is because while zombies take the path of least resistance they also the shortest path. If you move away. You will be too far from them and will move to the other side to get closer.

[toores]

Guys. You are 'fighting' over something which hasn't even come out yet. Let's see how it works when A17 is released around Halloween.

 

 

 

Hmm. That felt weird. That's usually one of the arguments used against me.

 

Haha

[Cazmyr]

There's a few good laughs right there (the visual) lol.

 

Actually, I'd like to do the opposite! I picked up some great tips from the mod-pros in my travels here. I'm just a beginner but would like to have a go at fixing myself up a pve animals-only game

 

Is the Mod called '7 Days to be Eaten?'

[Zadwanaa]

Well, the Zombie AI is a bit artificial in the first place and by exaggerating a weakness in it, I would call it an exploit. If the word "exploit" offends, call it "Playing the AI and not the game".

 

I see your point, but im sorry man, its not an exploit or "playing the AI and not the game." It's just strategy, otherwise any defense you set up is an exploit or "playing the AI and not the game" because on horde nights, they come for you, wherever you are, so you bait them to the strength of your defense.

 

plus, this is all theory until A17 drops and we can start taming bears & wolves to zipline to the front lines and fight the army of behemoths, we're all just theorycrafting

[Roland]

Dude, it's not going to be some profound secret.

 

You are speaking from your own experience with 100s or perhaps 1000s of hours with the game. Based on the number of people who ask for help in this forum, in youtube comments, and in the ingame chat, the secret of the current much more simplistic AI is a pretty profound secret to the average new player who hasn't read a scrap of any Developer Diary information and is frustrated trying to survive past the first few days let alone the first blood moon horde.

 

I never said that players won't discover patterns and tendencies of the zombies. Of course they will and that is perfectly fine. Its also fine to use that knowledge against them. If smearing guts on your face was discovered to make you invisible to the zombies then people would use that and it wouldn't be an exploit-- just a very powerful stealth strategy.

 

I'm just talking to those who are reading faatal's progress notes and then complaining that it is going to be too easy and too exploitable. It drives home the point that being an early access backer is different than being a simple customer wanting to play a cool zombie game. You can't have it both ways. Either you follow development and know things the average player wouldn't know and would have to discover through playing and trial and error or you avoid this place and play the game with fresh eyes.

 

Of course for those of us who have already put in thousands of hours, truly fresh eyes are probably unattainable simply because the game will never be so different than what we have already experienced that we can't apply all that experience to the new iteration and not be successful. Maybe a few hours of adapting but not that much more...

[Guppycur]

Knowing that zombies attacked doors made me stop using doors... not like they were useful anyway. So I agree.

[Aldranon]

You are speaking from your own experience with 100s or perhaps 1000s of hours with the game. Based on the number of people who ask for help in this forum, in youtube comments, and in the ingame chat, the secret of the current much more simplistic AI is a pretty profound secret to the average new player who hasn't read a scrap of any Developer Diary information and is frustrated trying to survive past the first few days let alone the first blood moon horde.

 

I never said that players won't discover patterns and tendencies of the zombies. Of course they will and that is perfectly fine. Its also fine to use that knowledge against them. If smearing guts on your face was discovered to make you invisible to the zombies then people would use that and it wouldn't be an exploit-- just a very powerful stealth strategy.

 

I'm just talking to those who are reading faatal's progress notes and then complaining that it is going to be too easy and too exploitable. It drives home the point that being an early access backer is different than being a simple customer wanting to play a cool zombie game. You can't have it both ways. Either you follow development and know things the average player wouldn't know and would have to discover through playing and trial and error or you avoid this place and play the game with fresh eyes.

 

Of course for those of us who have already put in thousands of hours, truly fresh eyes are probably unattainable simply because the game will never be so different than what we have already experienced that we can't apply all that experience to the new iteration and not be successful. Maybe a few hours of adapting but not that much more...

 

I don't think it will be too easy. I don't play the game for the Night Horde Defense, not because it wouldn't be fun, but because I cant generate enough resources to engage the night horde zombies and continue playing the way I do in the daytime.

 

I currently am trying to get enough bones for shotgun ammo by starting up 8 forges and constantly fighting the Screamer Hordes. I can get a lot of bones, so I MIGHT be able to play with shotgun turrets in A17. Its just during late game when base defense becomes pointless. Too many bullet sponges.

[Cazmyr]

Knowing that zombies attacked doors made me stop using doors... not like they were useful anyway. So I agree.

 

I agree.

 

When I found out that they attack doors none of my bases now have doors. I dig an underground tunnel to access the base.

 

-Added-

 

And that is totally on me. I do not expect the game to change in anyway to stop that.

[Darkfoxx117]

I disagree.

Figuring out that zombies go for the least resistance path is super easy in my opinion.

Also, when I first started playing this game a few years back, this is what I thought they were doing. As I started the game for the first time, I ALREADY expected zeds to go for the weakest part of your wall.

 

This is what any player would instinctively think.

 

 

I didn't instinctively think this. I just thought they would attack any and every block (closest to your position at first) until they eventually collapsed the building you were hiding on.

[Roland]

Knowing that zombies attacked doors made me stop using doors... not like they were useful anyway. So I agree.

 

What's interesting is that if we were watching a movie or reading a book about a guy who woke up in a zombie apocalypse after being in a coma and he found some helpful survivors and one of those survivors said, " We discovered months ago that the zombies favor doors so we always use tunnels with camouflaged entrances. We think they must have some residual knowledge from before they were infected that makes those bastards instinctively seek out doors." -- we would then accept that exposition as the way the universe of the movie worked and happily watch the rest of the movie without thinking that those survivors were being cheap exploiting recognizable zombie behavior. (In fact, it is inexplicable why the characters in TWD never routinely rubbed guts on themselves whenever going out since they learned early on that it worked...)

 

But in games, we don't want to be bored by predictable enemy behavior.

[rudthedud]

I didn't instinctively think this. I just thought they would attack any and every block (closest to your position at first) until they eventually collapsed the building you were hiding on.

 

I think the underlying issue here is how smart are the Zeds supposed to be? This tie back into the lore of the game. If the zombies are brain dead 100% and just go after 'smell' or 'sound' simple stuff then we can assume the zombies are dumb and will attack anything they feel in-front of them.

 

If the Zombies are smarter and haven't lost all brain power then I would expect them to go and attack different areas of my base. I would not expect them to know where the structural beams are though.

 

We kinda need more about the backstory (unless I have missed it) to know how the zeds should react/act otherwise it will be a never ending conversation.

[Roland]

Here's another question for those who are concerned that too-smart zombies will harm the game....

 

When the feature is implemented that makes it so that players who die come back as zombies and you play on a server with that feature toggled on, would you act like a dumb zombie to preserve the immersion factor of the game for the remaining survivors or would you use all your faculties to try and kill the still living players....?

 

[SnowDog1942]

No new info since May 1st and that was only party chat. Roland, throw us a bone. I dont need a video, Im not complaining about the wait time, just new info, please? That cant be it....right?

[Ouch Quit It]

Character to zombie ..respawns CONFIRMED!!

 

 

 

Btw..agree 100% with you Roland!!

 

MTFGA

[Aldranon]

Here's another question for those who are concerned that too-smart zombies will harm the game....

 

When the feature is implemented that makes it so that players who die come back as zombies and you play on a server with that feature toggled on, would you act like a dumb zombie to preserve the immersion factor of the game for the remaining survivors or would you use all your faculties to try and kill the still living players....?

 

 

I would first dig trenches from lakes and flood their bases, of course. I'm a Zombie... I got time.

 

That would just be to get there attention and I would then demand 5 rotten meat a day from each player. If they pay, I let them DIE... of old age.

[Tin]

What's interesting is that if we were watching a movie or reading a book about a guy who woke up in a zombie apocalypse after being in a coma and he found some helpful survivors and one of those survivors said, " We discovered months ago that the zombies favor doors so we always use tunnels with camouflaged entrances. We think they must have some residual knowledge from before they were infected that makes those bastards instinctively seek out doors." -- we would then accept that exposition as the way the universe of the movie worked and happily watch the rest of the movie without thinking that those survivors were being cheap exploiting recognizable zombie behavior. (In fact, it is inexplicable why the characters in TWD never routinely rubbed guts on themselves whenever going out since they learned early on that it worked...)

 

But in games, we don't want to be bored by predictable enemy behavior.

 

TWD zombies wouldn't even be a threat without the ppl in the show consistently being stupid and not paying attention to their surroundings. Here lets walk into this room without even being halfway cautious and just walk in.. zombie food!. Hey! lets walk around this corner, as tight as possible, instead of as wide as possible.. zombie food!. Hey! lets go to the city where the highest population counts used to be at.. zombie food! on and on..

Really hope they don't base the zombies in 7D2D on TWD zombies.

[Xrt]

If you can fit a Behemoth into 7D2D, you can fit in Archvile from Doom ll. LOL

Can you imagine that f'er running around your base respawning fallen zombies, starting with the most powerful ones.

 

Oh, and make him fast. And difficult to hit.

Now you've got your hands full, haha.

[sillls]

I agree.

 

When I found out that they attack doors none of my bases now have doors. I dig an underground tunnel to access the base.

 

-Added-

 

And that is totally on me. I do not expect the game to change in anyway to stop that.

 

I build up so the door is on the second floor. So I have to go up (removable wood frames) before I can go down to the first floor.