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Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17  

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  1. 1. Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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More pathing improvements done today including not jumping on every block between us. Walk around like a normal person.

 

It is pretty cool to stand in a room with a variety of wall blocks and improve the weak spot a zombie is beating on and then they will shift to next weakest and so on. Like having a structural engineer bang on stuff and say fix this.

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Yeah my question was what are the chances of them doing a hot fix for it for alpha 16? The reason I ask is because Alpha 17 is still pretty far from completion.

 

I asked this awhile back and got no response; doing some digging and it seemed other people have also asked, also without a response. Roland recently alluded to A16 being dead code base, so...my conclusion is "no" they are not going to update.

 

Hopefully they'll change their mind.

 

-A

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More pathing improvements done today including not jumping on every block between us. Walk around like a normal person.

 

It is pretty cool to stand in a room with a variety of wall blocks and improve the weak spot a zombie is beating on and then they will shift to next weakest and so on. Like having a structural engineer bang on stuff and say fix this.

 

What b is the testing branch on now?

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Over halfway!

 

Yeah my question was what are the chances of them doing a hot fix for it for alpha 16? The reason I ask is because Alpha 17 is still pretty far from completion.

 

There is a total of 33 'bars' in the health bar. 19 of them have been removed. Thus leaving 14 bars left. This means they are ~60% (57.5%) done with Alpha 17. Not sure why a developer would want to go back to their old code base merge the fix for one issue in and then have to test the ♥♥♥♥ of out it before releasing it. Plus if it breaks something it could be a huge time consuming effort to push out R16.5. Which could then in turn delay Alpha 17, something no one wants.

 

Therefore I would say the chances of another Alpha 16 release are less than 2%. There is just not enough value added to go down this road.

 

Just want to say thank to all the dev's for grinding away on improving this game.

 

Rud

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More pathing improvements done today including not jumping on every block between us. Walk around like a normal person.

 

It is pretty cool to stand in a room with a variety of wall blocks and improve the weak spot a zombie is beating on and then they will shift to next weakest and so on. Like having a structural engineer bang on stuff and say fix this.

 

Now the real trick: Will they automatically start tearing the walls down on your base or hideout even though you haven't been sensed and you've been quiet and nothing is running? Though it is pretty funny when a wandering horde comes through and they run into a building, instead of pathing around it (no ones inside, nothing that would indicate "come in here"), they just tear a hole in the wall and plow through to the other side.

 

I guess my question is: Do zombies still have that innate ability to always know which building you're camped out in for the night?

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Snip

 

I guess my question is: Do zombies still have that innate ability to always know which building you're camped out in for the night?

 

Only on Horde Night.

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Yeah my question was what are the chances of them doing a hot fix for it for alpha 16? The reason I ask is because Alpha 17 is still pretty far from completion.

 

I feel you man. I'm currently not playing because of this, but I also understand this will probably not be easy. Since the whole engine on which the problem was fixed is on a different version of Unity. So it's not even to say the fix for A17 would work in A16, let alone the time it would consume to do it and test it and compile it.

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More pathing improvements done today including not jumping on every block between us. Walk around like a normal person.

 

It is pretty cool to stand in a room with a variety of wall blocks and improve the weak spot a zombie is beating on and then they will shift to next weakest and so on. Like having a structural engineer bang on stuff and say fix this.

 

Should they all go for the weakest block? Perhaps some random variance would be a good idea if it isn't already planned. Yeah, he may be a rotting corpse fixated on eating your brain but he's also a hell of a structural engineer :-)

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I’m glad someone got the reference. I kind of assumed that Roland did that intentionally but then started to have doubts.

 

Boomer was my favorite. Stuck with Hawaii 5-0 for as long as I could stomach but ultimately it wasn't worth it. ;)

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I asked this awhile back and got no response; doing some digging and it seemed other people have also asked, also without a response. Roland recently alluded to A16 being dead code base, so...my conclusion is "no" they are not going to update.

 

Hopefully they'll change their mind.

 

-A

 

Someone just asked a few posts up why the devs can't just pick out a few highly desired changes and push those out. The reason is that A16 is not the game. They've moved on and putting any time into making changes designed for the next iteration to try and work for the current iteration is completely wasted time and money. A16 is a dead end road. A16 is not the game.

 

That was my allusion but to firmly answer your question they will not push the micro-stutter fix or any other fix to A16. All resources energy and focus is on pushing out A17. Kinyajuu said he fixed one cause of the stuttering early on and if they didn't push that to A16 at the time then they aren't going to do it now. If the game is unplayable for someone due to the stuttering they will just need to wait until A17 but in most cases it is not a show stopper and merely an inconvenient annoyance.

 

Fixing smell and zombies running in circles would've been hotfixes I personally would've wanted before the micro-stuttering because those things make the game less playable to me than something I've learned to take in stride after all these years. But they won't push those fixes to A16 either.

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So I can build a 4 block high concrete wall around my base and on each side put 2 vertical wooden frames at ground level and put a blade trap and gun turret behind each one and I am all set?

 

You are until blade trap is broken.. :).

 

There is that yes :)

 

It also depends on their distance to blocks, since distance has a penalty, so they may ignore a weak block if it is far away.

 

Curses, foiled again....

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Should they all go for the weakest block? Perhaps some random variance would be a good idea if it isn't already planned. Yeah, he may be a rotting corpse fixated on eating your brain but he's also a hell of a structural engineer :-)

 

Or maybe zombies ignore blocks already being targeted by other zombies. That would help them to spread out more and then if you killed a zombie another would then step forward to take its place since the block would be weaker but not currently targeted.

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Now the real trick: Will they automatically start tearing the walls down on your base or hideout even though you haven't been sensed and you've been quiet and nothing is running?

 

In testing, with the current state of the game, I have to make noise or be seen for zombies to come at me. Otherwise they wander, which does not allow block destruction in that mode.

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Should they all go for the weakest block? Perhaps some random variance would be a good idea if it isn't already planned. Yeah, he may be a rotting corpse fixated on eating your brain but he's also a hell of a structural engineer :-)

 

I love random variation, but that is more for the polish stage of development.

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Only on Horde Night.

 

I am aware of the horde night gps tracking ability of zombies, I was referring more to the not-so-random zombie pathing that always puts them at my base/building door day or night when I haven't done anything crazy to either

 

A. raise the heat level on the chunk

2. done something noisy in the vicinity of a zombie

III. been spotted by a zombie

 

Its like they just bump into things and think "ok, guess I'll just attack this until it breaks". It's not game breaking by any means, I just feel like its a drag to get found out when you've been doing a good job of being stealthy (my style) We are snek. We take. Don't bother--our way.

 

Was more curious to see if @Fataal was also working on (excuse the following programming ignorance) the AI part that controls how the zombies perceive/detect players and/or how a zombie determines where to wander around and if it is truly random or if the code forces zombies to gravitate in the direction a player is currently located. And by that I don't mean a straight line shot code, just a "he's over there somewhere, ballpark, yolo, wander in a northeasterly direction that'a way, maybe you'll see him" sort of code.

 

edit: just saw fataal's post: I believe that answers my question, but raises another: Are the zombies that were in wander mode, but start making it their life's purpose to destroy the large boulders strewn on the map an A16.4 thing that has been addressed, or is something switching them to attack mode (maybe they saw me or something, but they can't path around the boulder and have thus decided to go through it instead).

Edited by XCOUNTRY (see edit history)

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Or maybe zombies ignore blocks already being targeted by other zombies. That would help them to spread out more and then if you killed a zombie another would then step forward to take its place since the block would be weaker but not currently targeted.

 

Limiting the number of Z's that can attack a block is a good idea but I'd like to see them cluster two or three deep with the weight/attacks of the Z's behind adding to the damage. It's a horde, not a firing line. :-)

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I love random variation, but that is more for the polish stage of development.

 

Fair enough, get it working and _then_ mess with it :-)

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Hey as long as they don't keep jumping around and spinning pointlessly like idiots at a rave...I am happy...

anything past that at this point is just gravy...

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Limiting the number of Z's that can attack a block is a good idea but I'd like to see them cluster two or three deep with the weight/attacks of the Z's behind adding to the damage. It's a horde, not a firing line. :-)

 

I really like this idea, it would be a good way of simulating larger hordes as well since that is kind of a limited resource currently. You could make it exponential too or based on the "weight" of the zombies behind, since usually the faster smaller zombies hit the walls first, but the larger slower ones arrive after. Couple that with that earlier idea of blocks not downgrading and just being destroyed and that pocket of three zombies on one side of your base could become a big problem, fast.

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Snip

 

Couple that with that earlier idea of blocks not downgrading and just being destroyed and that pocket of three zombies on one side of your base could become a big problem, fast.

 

I have a question about this:

 

Is the idea that the block would still have, what currently is, its Cumulative Durability? It is just in one pool and not split between all the downgrades?

 

So a Stainless Steel Block would have 21,000 Durability then be destroyed?

 

Or is it that that Stainless Steel Block would have 12,000 and then be destroyed?

Edited by Cazmyr (see edit history)

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I think it was just an idea passed around and a couple modders thought about implementing it. I don't know if the devs actually plan on doing this, so it would be whatever your preference was.

 

Me personally would:

 

Stainless Steel Block->Reinforced concrete->destroyed (since its concrete plated in steel, IMHO)=18,000hp

All other block upgrades->destroyed (since I believe the rest are a blend/completely different--scrap iron stuff already does this after you upgrade it from wood)=Cumulative HP from all preceding blocks.

Edited by XCOUNTRY (see edit history)

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It is pretty cool to stand in a room with a variety of wall blocks and improve the weak spot a zombie is beating on and then they will shift to next weakest and so on. Like having a structural engineer bang on stuff and say fix this.

 

So the zombies will be like engineers, eh?

 

 

Another part of me is thinking they're not civil engineers, they're just mindless zombies. So being able to outsmart them is reasonable.

 

The counter-argument to improving the A.I. is that they're not civil engineers, they're zombies. They're like a dog on a leash, that runs in circles and then doesn't understand how the leash got shorter. They don't think about structural integrity, they just go straight for trying to reach your tasty, tasty brains. As a human, your superior intelligence is your key asset against their far greater numbers...

 

I've said it before - they're not structural engineers, they're mindless zombies after your brains. Not taking the direct path demonstrates a level of intelligence I'm not sure zombies should possess...

 

On the other hand, zombies aren't engineers.

 

However, I want a limit on the zombie's intelligence. They're not structural engineers. They shouldn't be expected to size up a building and target the load bearing wall or pillar, per se.

 

You’ve highlighted exactly why I’m not a fan of this solution: zombies lack the mental capacity to grasp engineering concepts in my opinion. I mean, I’d take it over the current state where the player can become unreachable. But I would prefer that zombies be monsters, that overcome obstacles using their physical abilities...

 

I’ve been very trepidatious about making the zombies too smart in an un-zombie-like way. Zombies aren’t structural engineers. But I have to agree the results of going for a weak point are desirable...

 

 

Oh well... I hope I'm wrong, and the zombies still feel zombie-like. :)

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I think you'll find that the fallout system is a renamed version of the AD&D system with luck added. The original fallout game was developed as an AD&D game but the whole thing fell through and so as not to get sued by whoever the hell held the rights at the time they shifted genre to post-apocalyptic.

 

Neat! I didn't know that, though I did pick up right away on it having stats similar to rogue-likes, my first exposure to RPGs.

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Or maybe zombies ignore blocks already being targeted by other zombies. That would help them to spread out more and then if you killed a zombie another would then step forward to take its place since the block would be weaker but not currently targeted.

 

This sounds good to me. Even a ravenous pack of animals seems to be aware that it's seldom productive to waste all their energy bumping into each other. The block could be flagged as 'in use', or the zombie could make a bigger invisible 'hole' that extends in front of itself for purposes of the other zombies' pathfinding. Heck, that would be nice when they're just wandering, too.

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Was more curious to see if @Fataal was also working on (excuse the following programming ignorance) the AI part that controls how the zombies perceive/detect players and/or how a zombie determines where to wander around and if it is truly random or if the code forces zombies to gravitate in the direction a player is currently located. And by that I don't mean a straight line shot code, just a "he's over there somewhere, ballpark, yolo, wander in a northeasterly direction that'a way, maybe you'll see him" sort of code.

 

In A16 zombies definitely wander specifically towards your position. This makes sense with the right mindset, however. Suppose for the sake of argument that the game spawned zombies that wandered in all directions all the time, all over the map. You wouldn't even be aware of most of these zombies. You'd only see and interact with the ones that happen to wander reasonably close to you. So to save the CPU cycles of simulating a million zombies everywhere, the game culls them all out except for the ones that happen to be wandering your way. This is functionally the same as only spawning zombies that wander your way in the first place.

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