Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Boidster]

He messed up 6 more times?

 

[khzmusik]

Yes. The point of experimental is to test things publicly, with the people who choose to opt in, before everyone gets it as a stable version.

Experimental release is really for testing?

Yes. I know it sounds obvious, but some people don't actually understand that.

 

Including Roland it seems. Not trying to re-open a can of worms, but if you want the background, here you go.

 

This sarcastic response likely comes from another thread about A17.2E RWG, titled "just when you thought it couldn't get any worse..."

 

In that thread, Roland said (or admitted) that A17.2 experimental was deliberately released with RWG so broken, that you (TFP) asked your own internal QA team not to bother testing it. So it wasn't even close to being ready for testing publicly.

 

His defense of that move was that it didn't have to be ready for testing publicly, because experimental releases are not public releases. So don't complain, and if you can't handle it, go back to stable. That response didn't sit well with a lot of folks (including, especially, me).

 

But, on to the positives: From Mad Mole's Twitter updates, it looks like the work Kin is doing will make RWG better than it's ever been. Hopefully it is ready in time for an A17 release.

 

Also, now that I finally stole a seed that produces a playable RWG world, I have been doing a lot of trader quests. I never realized how effective they are at getting players to explore, which is especially great in (working) RWG worlds.

 

Encouraging player exploration is definitely a good thing, especially in a game like 7D2D where sooner or later you have to dig in and build a horde base (which encourages staying put). It was something that I thought was lacking in A16, and this is a great improvement.

[NukemDed]

???!

wtf are you trying to say here?

 

releasing it broken... ?????

 

i see

here it is

as it it is

we are still wotking on it

have a PLAY while we are WORKING on it.

 

some folks need a reality check

 

having children would sort them out

[khzmusik]

here it is

as it it is

we are still wotking on it

have a PLAY while we are WORKING on it.

 

That's fine if it's the stated purpose of an experimental release. It is not. In fataal's own words, "The point of experimental is to test things publicly."

 

It's both TFP's own goal, and perhaps more importantly, it's an expectation of the community. (Not an unreasonable one either.) So, if you're releasing something that can't even be tested publicly, you're working against both your own goals and against community expectations.

 

Sometimes you have to do this - and in the case of RWG, I'm pretty positive TFP had little choice but to do it. That's fine - but the proper response is to acknowledge it, explain that you're working on it, and ask for patience while it's being worked on. Not to deny it was ever released to the public, then to tell people to shut up and stop whining.

 

...and now, finally, I will shut up and stop whining.

 

On a different subject: With my new playthrough, I've been trying a "nomadic" style, where you don't form a base, and move from POI to POI to spend the night. It's a good match with doing trader quests, or with any play style where exploration is encouraged.

 

I'm also playing a "high-risk death" style. Not dead is dead, but no bedrolls, and you lose everything on death. I like this, as it doesn't require you to completely create a new map when you die (problematic when there are only a dozen viable RWG seeds), but it still makes death something to be legitimately feared.

 

It's pretty fun, but there is one issue that makes it less so. You are discouraged from nighttime activities where you are at risk of being killed, so you have to find things to do while you sit in some reasonably protected area.

 

Without a stable base (and the forging, mining, etc. that you can do there), there just isn't enough to do. Cooking food, spending skill points, or organizing your pack just doesn't take up enough time, and you spend a huge amount of the night just sitting there.

 

Obviously I'm not required to play this way, but it seems like there might be a way for TFP to account for this play style, and give us something to do in situations like these.

 

I don't have a specific answer though. Maybe the suggestion that you have to take time to read books would be good for this? A way to sleep through the night - recovering health, fighting infection, etc. - would be nice, but TFP have stated they're not interested in adding this. (And they have good reasons.)

 

Anyone else in the same boat? Have any thoughts or suggestions? If nobody else finds this a problem, then maybe I just need to alter my play style.

[The Gronk]

Without a stable base (and the forging, mining, etc. that you can do there), there just isn't enough to do. Cooking food, spending skill points, or organizing your pack just doesn't take up enough time, and you spend a huge amount of the night just sitting there.

 

Obviously I'm not required to play this way, but it seems like there might be a way for TFP to account for this play style, and give us something to do in situations like these.

 

Sleeping through the night is problematic in a MP environment to say the least.

 

I'm not sure if this will work but it might be worth a shot...

 

Mod a bedroll to have an inventory. When the inventory is open the bedroll provides incremental <whatever> buffs to the player, healing and a stamina buff are the obvious ones. Have the buffs stack over time to a certain limit and you essentially have a bedroll that provides you with a good night's sleep in game while you go and make a cup of coffee.

 

You could probably use Area Of Effect buffs within a block or two of the bedroll but that means that anybody could use it, the inventory version could most likely be locked for a single player.

 

Not the best solution but if you're getting buffs from resting it should feel less like the time is wasted.

[Anthonydevidal]

My favorite zombie is the survivor who had a backpack and always appeared running and when you killed him released a juicy booty of war, I have not yet seen one in this alpha 17 ...

 

What was missing I loved seeing it and hunting it.

 

I have had bad luck or have disappeared in alpha 17?

 

please bring it back

[Sakurambo]

My favorite zombie is the survivor who had a backpack and always appeared running and when you killed him released a juicy booty of war, I have not yet seen one in this alpha 17 ...

 

What was missing I loved seeing it and hunting it.

 

I have had bad luck or have disappeared in alpha 17?

 

please bring it back

it must belong to a mod, probably Ravenhearst

[meganoth]

That's fine if it's the stated purpose of an experimental release. It is not. In fataal's own words, "The point of experimental is to test things publicly."

 

It's both TFP's own goal, and perhaps more importantly, it's an expectation of the community. (Not an unreasonable one either.) So, if you're releasing something that can't even be tested publicly, you're working against both your own goals and against community expectations.

 

Sometimes you have to do this - and in the case of RWG, I'm pretty positive TFP had little choice but to do it. That's fine - but the proper response is to acknowledge it, explain that you're working on it, and ask for patience while it's being worked on. Not to deny it was ever released to the public, then to tell people to shut up and stop whining.

 

1) They might put out a game with an RWG that is known broken to test the REST of the game. Whether that was communicated well, don't know.

2) If you reopen a days or weeks old discussion or dispute again (which I would also advise not to do), please quote the offending person or link to his post instead of rephrasing what he said. The rest of us can't judge if he is wrong or you interpret him wrongly. Most arguments start from misunderstandings. I know because I fall into that trap often enough.

 

...and now, finally, I will shut up and stop whining.

 

On a different subject: With my new playthrough, I've been trying a "nomadic" style, where you don't form a base, and move from POI to POI to spend the night. It's a good match with doing trader quests, or with any play style where exploration is encouraged.

 

I'm also playing a "high-risk death" style. Not dead is dead, but no bedrolls, and you lose everything on death. I like this, as it doesn't require you to completely create a new map when you die (problematic when there are only a dozen viable RWG seeds), but it still makes death something to be legitimately feared.

 

It's pretty fun, but there is one issue that makes it less so. You are discouraged from nighttime activities where you are at risk of being killed, so you have to find things to do while you sit in some reasonably protected area.

 

Without a stable base (and the forging, mining, etc. that you can do there), there just isn't enough to do.

[...]

 

Anyone else in the same boat? Have any thoughts or suggestions? If nobody else finds this a problem, then maybe I just need to alter my play style.

 

Ideas:

 

1) One forum poster said that with points in stealth night time questing is in some ways easier than at daylight because zombies don't see you at night and don't wake up as easy when you shoot other zombies in the room. Probably your top priority should be to look for night vision googles if you want to do this.

 

2) Don't bother to loot a house you intend to stay in the night, just clear it of zombies. In the night loot and scrap anything valuable in the house. Wrench the kitchen, lamps, beds. Cut the curtains. You might even cut wooden walls to save on tree cutting in the day. Anything that doesn't look like a stone walls really has some limited benefit.

 

3) (If you don't mind revisiting places you already have been you could set up bases all over the map and and on revisits start mining, use stationary forges with ores stored from previous visits. Ok, not really 100% nomadic, but maybe unavoidable on a limited map at the moment.)

[Menace312]

Kinyajuu's number 1 task is RWG. He has made 7 different RWG commits this week.

 

Uuh, I wish he'd do a dev diary of sorts on that one... Even just a shabby one

[spud42]

Any news on water physics?

 

even simply replacing dead zombies with a water block instead of an air block would help from getting holes in the water

[The Gronk]

even simply replacing dead zombies with a water block instead of an air block would help from getting holes in the water

 

I'd like to see each block given a porosity and water level, kind of a primitive compound block system.

 

Simply overlay water onto whatever block is there. If it's porous then water can pass through it otherwise the water is contained. You should be able to have underwater objects such as workbenches or zombie corpses without having to re-mesh every block in the game.

[khzmusik]

Sleeping through the night is problematic in a MP environment to say the least.

 

I'm not sure if this will work but it might be worth a shot...

 

Mod a bedroll to have an inventory. When the inventory is open the bedroll provides incremental <whatever> buffs to the player, healing and a stamina buff are the obvious ones. Have the buffs stack over time to a certain limit and you essentially have a bedroll that provides you with a good night's sleep in game while you go and make a cup of coffee.

 

You could probably use Area Of Effect buffs within a block or two of the bedroll but that means that anybody could use it, the inventory version could most likely be locked for a single player.

 

Not the best solution but if you're getting buffs from resting it should feel less like the time is wasted.

 

Yeah, I do remember that reason for not adding sleep to the game. I think there are others. They are good reasons and I fully understand why sleeping isn't implemented.

 

Starvation mod had a similar mechanic, where if you were on top of a bedroll, you got increased health and stamina recovery. It also had a "tired" mechanic so you were required to do this occasionally.

 

It was not a bad idea, but it did lead to kind of the same issue, which is that you have to sit there with your character doing nothing while you get a cup of coffee. Buffs or not, it's not particularly fun gameplay.

 

I also don't know how that mechanic worked in MP, so maybe it had that same issue, where other players could also benefit from it. IMHO that is less of an issue than the fact that you're sitting there.

 

1) One forum poster said that with points in stealth night time questing is in some ways easier than at daylight because zombies don't see you at night and don't wake up as easy when you shoot other zombies in the room. Probably your top priority should be to look for night vision googles if you want to do this.

 

2) Don't bother to loot a house you intend to stay in the night, just clear it of zombies. In the night loot and scrap anything valuable in the house. Wrench the kitchen, lamps, beds. Cut the curtains. You might even cut wooden walls to save on tree cutting in the day. Anything that doesn't look like a stone walls really has some limited benefit.

 

3) (If you don't mind revisiting places you already have been you could set up bases all over the map and and on revisits start mining, use stationary forges with ores stored from previous visits. Ok, not really 100% nomadic, but maybe unavoidable on a limited map at the moment.)

 

1) That is not a bad idea. It certainly would not be boring. There are a lot of higher priority perks that I want to spend skill points on right now, but maybe after those are at a decent level, I'll try it. (Still reluctant to go out, stealth or not, but maybe that's part of the fun.)

 

2) This is also not a bad idea, and if I were not "cheating" and occasionally staying at the same place, it's probably the best solution here. So maybe in reality this is my fault for cheating. (In my defense I do this usually when it's too late to clear a POI, and the "high-risk death" style encourages that behavior.)

 

3) Well I'm already "cheating" (see above), so maybe I have to embrace the fact that I'm not actually "nomadic" and do exactly that. (I did exactly that in an earlier A16/WotW playthrough.)

 

All good ideas, and thanks.

[betam4x]

Is there anyone here that ENJOYS randomgen more than previous versions? The terrain is more natural, there are mountains, burned out sections of towns (though I still question how things can be on fire 150 years later), and the graphics are simply amazing. The only thing IMO they need to fix is roads and transitions into other biomes and RWG would be perfect. The only 'wishlist' I'd have for RWG is:

 

1) True interstate highways, complete with busted up cars where people tried to leave populated areas

2) When generating the world, take full advantage of all cores available to speed up world generation (I haven't tried it, I simply create many threads instead, but https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1542213/how-to-find-the-number-of-cpu-cores-via-net-c seems to have the answer)

3) More water. streams, rivers, ponds, lakes. Water wouldn't disappear due to the apocalypse. If anything water towers would dry up and you'd have to rely on natural resources for water.

 

A thought for you that don't like Alpha 17:

 

1) Turn down tree detail and lower the view distance to medium. The game runs fine in 1080p, 1440p, and even 4k on my system (though 4k gets down into the upper 30s/lower 40s FPS wise for me).

 

2) Stop comparing it to Alpha 16, it's not Alpha 16, it's an entirely new game.

 

3) The game already looks better than some AAA games I've played, and while I hope TFP focuses on optimizations, I also hope they don't do so at the expense of graphics quality. The game runs AMAZINGLY well on Linux under Steam/Proton, much better than Windows, so at least part of the problem is Microsoft.

 

To the TFP: Make sure you max out the graphical and core usage for the game. Get a Threadripper 1950x or 2950x and make sure it scales. The one thing I noticed is that it does not appear to take full advantage of the CPU or the GPU, so there is likely an engine bottleneck. Don't be afraid to write some shaders to assist with AI or something.

 

EDIT: Oh and to help with XP gain, give each town a name and give the player a small amount of XP for discovering it. Similarly, give each house a backstory, and have a journal or something that describes what happen. Let the player read through it and also give the player a small amount of XP for reading that.

[beerfly]

Is there anyone here that ENJOYS randomgen more than previous versions?

 

I like it with all its flaws. Its a good challange to have fun around a random generated world under construction. Easy as that. (Expectations are excluded since so much of evolution it got that we really can`t expect something less than better).

 

Get the oportunity to have fun, not complain is my strategy and it worked for few thousands of hours on my two Steam accounts.

[HungryZombie]

Is there anyone here that ENJOYS randomgen more than previous versions? The terrain is more natural, there are mountains, burned out sections of towns (though I still question how things can be on fire 150 years later), and the graphics are simply amazing. The only thing IMO they need to fix is roads and transitions into other biomes and RWG would be perfect. The only 'wishlist' I'd have for RWG is:

 

I'm pretty much in agreement. I love the random gen for the mixed patches of terrian. Having bits of wastland or burnt biomes really gives the apocalyptic feel.

 

If they fixed the roads, the duplicate POI's and the lack of water it would be perfect for me.

[AtomicUs5000]

2) Stop comparing it to Alpha 16, it's not Alpha 16, it's an entirely new game.

 

Stop telling us not to. It's not an entirely new game. If it was, then this would be Alpha 1.

What I, and most will do if there is some aspect of Alpha 17 that we do not like, is voice our opinion. We do this for at least three reasons:

1) That is the purpose of testing alpha versions.

2) The forum is a place to voice our opinions.

3) Good or bad, TFP values our feedback.

[Star69]

 

Snip

 

Anyone else in the same boat? Have any thoughts or suggestions? If nobody else finds this a problem, then maybe I just need to alter my play style.

The broken rwg gives you plenty of a poi for nighttime work.....grab one of the cell tower compounds. They are well protected with iron bars, there are only 3-5 zombies present and if you spend the night wrenching all the computer sections, you get around 5K dollars for what you get...maybe more depending on buffs. Bonus is you can always find a dozen or more in each town. If you can grab a condiminium and clear it before night, you can spend the night or many nights if solo, stripping the place of all things valuable and get a nice supply of canned food and water. These are just 2 poi's I like to do at night. A regular house just won't keep you busy all night.

[Roland]

Including Roland it seems. Not trying to re-open a can of worms, but if you want the background, here you go.

 

This sarcastic response likely comes from another thread about A17.2E RWG, titled "just when you thought it couldn't get any worse..."

 

In that thread, Roland said (or admitted) that A17.2 experimental was deliberately released with RWG so broken, that you (TFP) asked your own internal QA team not to bother testing it. So it wasn't even close to being ready for testing publicly.

 

Yes, under great pressure I admitted that the devs weren't ready for bug reports on RWG at that time. It was such a horrible slip up that Madmole himself posted the same thing, himself, as recently as last week in response to people posting bugs about RWG in the official bug thread.

 

I'm pretty sure we're not looking to collect any RWG bugs since we have a brand new RWG we're working on.

 

What you fail to realize is that the devs themselves often test the game using.......Navezgane and whenever RWG is out of commission internally the testers and the devs use Navezgane since it is a perfectly viable environment for testing the game.

 

His defense of that move was that it didn't have to be ready for testing publicly, because experimental releases are not public releases. So don't complain, and if you can't handle it, go back to stable. That response didn't sit well with a lot of folks (including, especially, me).

 

No. I was not defending the move. The defense of the move is that since the developers maintained a perfectly viable Navezgane world for collecting the type of testing that they wanted it was perfectly acceptable to release an experimental build with RWG being non-functional. In fact, there were whole alphas without any RWG at all and I believe my first 500 hours in the game came solely from playing the only option available-- Navezgane.

 

My suggested coping mechanism for others (including, especially, you) was to opt out of experimental and go back to stable. Experimental is always voluntary which means that while testing and reporting and helping is appreciated, whining and ranting and scolding the devs is not.

 

Experimental releases are public in the sense that anyone who has purchased early access can choose to opt in and participate but it is different than regular releases that go out to everyone and automatically update their files to the new version. The reason experimental is even released is so that people will help out in those areas indicated by the devs and not so they can just play and then complain that their toy isn't working.

 

As a proof of the fact that in the developers' minds there is a difference for what is acceptable in experimental vs general stable public release they reverted the highly unpopular A17.2 experimental version of RWG which created either an island or huge bodies of water and no cities (the one you were vehemently complaining about and criticizing TFP for releasing to experimental) back to A17.1 which was still not ideal but (and here's the kicker so pay attention) it was what the general public was already playing and used to and the version in which they already had worlds generated-- so they felt that it was the best solution. See? Experimental one way. Public Stable release another way.

 

But, on to the positives: From Mad Mole's Twitter updates, it looks like the work Kin is doing will make RWG better than it's ever been. Hopefully it is ready in time for an A17 release.

 

Which is also what I and others have been saying this entire time since A17 came out. It is a work in progress. The current situation is not the intended final situation. It is being worked on.

 

Glad you're on board now.

 

Also, now that I finally stole a seed that produces a playable RWG world

 

And this is due in large part to the fact that the stable public version is different than the experimental version. Thank you for your feedback. It was part of what convinced the developers to revert RWG back to what it was in 17.1 before releasing A17.2 to the stable branch.

 

/so many worms

[Roland]

Oh and to help with XP gain, give each town a name and give the player a small amount of XP for discovering it.

 

No Man's Land...?

 

We should get to name zombie types we discover as well!

[Boidster]

I can say with 74% confidence that 99.2% of us understand exactly what Experimental releases are for, and what types of feedback are appropriate and not childish.

 

Roland is a sissy puss.

 

No, wait, Sisyphus. That looks better.

[SxR]

roland pls record vido of u pushing rock up hill pls??//

[fragtzack]

The truth about RWG revealed. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=RWG

[Roland]

roland pls record vido of u pushing rock up hill pls??//

 

I would but recording me teaching math to high school students requires parent release forms. It is a very similar rock though.

[Aldranon]

I would but recording me teaching math to high school students requires parent release forms. It is a very similar rock though.

 

I had a completely gorgeous single young lady teaching me advanced math for awhile, let me tell you, that was the hardest time I had learning... math.

[The Gronk]

I had a completely gorgeous single young lady teaching me advanced math for awhile, let me tell you, that was the hardest time I had learning... math.

 

I'm tempted to continue the math puns but that would be pandering to the lowest common denominator among us.