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Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17  

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  1. 1. Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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Yeah good work Royal.

 

And if you don't like it go back to A17.1, damn you!!!1!

 

Well.. You know.. If you don't count the fact that the RGW was broken there as well.

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ok now is clear that not the RWGmixer.xml is broken.

The whole system is broken

 

	<prefab_rule name="industrial_JunkyardsLots">
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />		
		<prefab name="vacant_lot_01" prob="0.18"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="vacant_lot_02" prob="0.18"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="vacant_lot_03" prob="0.18"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="vacant_lot_04" prob="0.18"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="mp_waste_sewer_hole_1" prob="0.18"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="utility_celltower_02" prob="0.19"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="utility_celltower_01" prob="0.2"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="army_barracks_01" prob="0.25"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="junkyard_lg_01" prob="0.3"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="junkyard_med_01" count="1"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
	</prefab_rule>

gives me ONE of the prefab

Celltower still 320

 

Have a look at my modlet, I spent some time going through the options and what they do and added some corrections for 'too many of the same building'.

 

The 'prob' attribute does seem to be a little broke, but playing with the max count seems to force it to move on and look at other options.

 

There also seems to be a problem with not specifying any values, this seems to be what the pimps want to be used if all the other options have been exhausted.

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Yeah this is normal. We are supposed to test it. It is an utter and complete mess, and it shouldn't have been released (even to an experimental version) in this form.

 

MM seems to think it was an accident that the code was changed. And yes, that can happen with any version control system if you are in a hurry and not looking which build you have checked out or what path you are on.

 

The Rad Remover is nice to have, but its not late game critical. Because most people use some type of damage burst to kill them anyway. I like Shotgun with full choke mod and aim for the head.

 

 

I have played the stealth + bow shtick once and that might be the guy that needs one. Maybe that's why I only played that type once.

 

I would agree that the rad remover is quite optional in pois, if you can make sure that you often have one or only a few radiated against you at any time AND have high burst damage.

 

But on horde nights it seems THE most important mod by far. Without it you are wasting a lot of ammo because when a radiated goes down other zombies walk in front of it and prevent you from finishing it, giving it time to heal. Also you are wasting a lot of trap damage if you are not able to finish off the radiated while he is getting trap damage.

 

Disclaimer: I didn't do any objective tests on the impact of rad removers, just some assumptions and subjective impressions on how fast radiated go down.

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We watched a server that had a lot of players and it sent all their map data and combined it. After a month like 20% of the actual map was uncovered. I'm pretty sure we will support 16k maps again soon enough but my point is people think they need all this space, yet 50 players only uncovered 20% of the actual map after a month of play in a16.

 

Im calling Bullsht on this. I help admin 3 servers that have almost all of the map was uncovered in each alpha version since a14 for a map that was 10k x 10k circle. Dont force #FAKENEWS down people's throats.

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ok now is clear that not the RWGmixer.xml is broken.

The whole system is broken

 

	<prefab_rule name="industrial_JunkyardsLots">
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />		
		<prefab name="vacant_lot_01" prob="0.18"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="vacant_lot_02" prob="0.18"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="vacant_lot_03" prob="0.18"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="vacant_lot_04" prob="0.18"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="mp_waste_sewer_hole_1" prob="0.18"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="utility_celltower_02" prob="0.19"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="utility_celltower_01" prob="0.2"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="army_barracks_01" prob="0.25"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="junkyard_lg_01" prob="0.3"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
		<prefab name="junkyard_med_01" count="1"/>
		<prefab name="0_CityTrader"  />			
	</prefab_rule>

gives me ONE of the prefab

Celltower still 320

 

Are you sure 0_CityTrader does generate anything at all? Maybe all your lines get ignored because the prefab "0_CityTrader" itself is defined wrong or not at all.

 

(You can test this if you change all citytrader lines with for example the junkyard line. If lots of junkyards are generated it means either the missing "prob" has an unexpected effect or citytrader itself is the problem. Then remove the "prob="0.3"" and look at the result. If there are still a lot of junkyards the problem lies with the citytrader definition)

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)

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Playing a a17 map on a17.2, I DO have to say that there are significant improvements to the physics. Not hitting those damned rocks all the time breaking a bicycle is a dream, and not having some of the rocks being miniscule is also an improvement.

 

I actually look forward to the vultures now... ride the bike, wait for one to come after you, hop off and power hit one 10 feet away. Thats some serious blissful payback right there...lol!

 

Increased xp gain also lets me level up to get to later things faster, so it won't take a week or two to unlock and use later game stuff.

 

While the rwg is rubbish, there are some great playbility improvements in 17.2

 

Since almost all long term players pretty much just use rwg, I'd say let everyone who can work on that do only that right now to get in in some serviceable fashion. The other bugs aren't gamebreaking right now, but not being able to generate decently playable worlds for testing is.

 

My only other real beef right now is either missing or broken controller commands...toggle run on vehicles should be pretty easy to fix, and not being able to aim spotlights and turrets might not be too bad since it looks like the range box for selecting the preview window might just need correction.

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generate this moment a map that will tell me if the issue is really what i think, if so it explains the 5 trillion radio towers

 

And yes the prefab is flawless, well outgoing from "how it should be"

 

My last generation added btw 6000 of my prefab. So i guess i found the issue, if thats so i write a bugreport

Edited by Royal Deluxe (see edit history)

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very interested in what you found Royal Deluxe, can you go check the steam 17.2 seed page I added seeds and my "fixes" to prefab rules

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Here my bugreport

 

Summary: The XML of prefabs is buggy

Version: 17.2 B20

Did you validate your files? Yes

Status: NEW

 

Bug Description: Every prefab has a value named Zoning

Like the watertower

   <property name="Zoning" value="Industrial" />

 

The prefab (and not only this one) Vacant_lot_01 had this entry

   <property name="Zoning" value="any" />

 

I expected (and i guess thats the "How it should be") that any means any.

 

But changing this line to

   <property name="Zoning" value="any,Commercial,Downtown,Industrial,ResidentialNew,ResidentialOld,Residential"/>

 

Change the amount of this poi on the seed "gimme good map"

from Zero or 1 (cant remember this moment) of this prefab to 1163

 

Expected was zero difference

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How is this even possible? Single player on a 4k map, I usually end up discovering the whole map myself... and 50 players couldn't do more than 1/5 of the map in a month's time? Are you certain that map data was even correct?

 

When I play with a buddy of mine, we use a 4k map because anything else is just wasted games space. We've played several hundred hours, are level 200+ and have explored MAYBE 10% of the map.

 

Your play style does not equal everyone's play style. TFP can't please everyone, but personally I'm pretty happy with A17 over all. I don't know how many other people play like I do, vs. how many play like you do, but then neither do you.

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When I play with a buddy of mine, we use a 4k map because anything else is just wasted games space. We've played several hundred hours, are level 200+ and have explored MAYBE 10% of the map.

 

Your play style does not equal everyone's play style. TFP can't please everyone, but personally I'm pretty happy with A17 over all. I don't know how many other people play like I do, vs. how many play like you do, but then neither do you.

 

If you do any of the quests theres no way you only explored 10% of the map. 4K in this game is simply just way to small if you do any amount of exploring, especially when you get a vehicle. Like i keep saying i feel like they did zero testing with the new RWG and they took 18months to make a17, it just simply wasnt ready for us yet. 16X16k would be good though and i could get behind that.

Edited by Louie04k (see edit history)

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very interested in what you found Royal Deluxe, can you go check the steam 17.2 seed page I added seeds and my "fixes" to prefab rules

 

Not more today, maybe tomorrow, but for the moment i am in the middle of modding the rwgmixer.xml

So no Generating of Vanilla maps for a few workhours.

But your 300+ Kb seed sounds promising

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The rad zone is a bitmap / map overlay.

 

It can have values from 0 to 3.

Currently only "3" is used by a buff.

 

So you can paint specific rad areas on the map.

 

How do you specify the values in the radiation.png?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Agree and disagree. That the rad remover is such an important item in late game might be a balancing problem not yet solved. There could be one or two lesser alternatives, for example a "rad slowificator" (:smile-new:) or a "damaged rad remover" with a big drawback or some other more convoluted method to slow down healing of the radiated.

 

But I think my advice is sound: First of all he already might have one laying around and missed the significance of it. Secondly replayability is improved if you can have good or bad runs, doesn't mean the advice to look for that maybe elusive item is wrong. For example raiding book shops or book towers might improve your chances considerably to get the schematic at least.

 

You have two rad removers. That is enough for blood moon or quests if you play as a group. Only one shot has to hit the radiated for him to stop regenerating, the rest of the damage can come from any weapon or trap.

I'm playing in a group of 4, we have 3 at a time when rad zombies are beginning to be a problem. Combine that with the info from Madmole that a bug made radiated spawn in masses too early and it doesn't look like rad removers are too rare.

 

I wish AOE buffs worked correctly on blocks; right now you have to hijack a vanilla AOE buff like Campfire warming in order to have something like a rad-removal-zone. I'm using an item in hand on a mod, but then THAT means a person has to be holding it... and can't fight. =)

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If you do any of the quests theres no way you only explored 10% of the map. 4K in this game is simply just way to small if you do any amount of exploring, especially when you get a vehicle. Like i keep saying i feel like they did zero testing with the new RWG and they took 18months to make a17, it just simply wasnt ready for us yet. 16X16k would be good though and i could get behind that.

 

I also think the 10% is too low and probably a measurement mistake. For example after a server restart because of a bug (I don't remember the exact circumstances) my map got covered by fog again. A similar thing could have happened on that server or simply the telemetry data was wrong.

 

BUT I hope the "us" in your post is just refering to your group of friends and not to players in general. EA is not for everyone. My group is playing A17 for months now and we have fun with it. It definitely was ready for us.

 

I wish AOE buffs worked correctly on blocks; right now you have to hijack a vanilla AOE buff like Campfire warming in order to have something like a rad-removal-zone. I'm using an item in hand on a mod, but then THAT means a person has to be holding it... and can't fight. =)

 

Oh yes. I still hope to make a burning buff eventually that is able to spread to and burn down wood blocks.

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)

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How is this even possible? Single player on a 4k map, I usually end up discovering the whole map myself... and 50 players couldn't do more than 1/5 of the map in a month's time? Are you certain that map data was even correct?

 

He's either full of crap or his test pool is extremely limited to sucky players; either way he's wrong. =)

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Shipping Maps with the Base Game

 

What are you guys even talking about? An 8k map is 261 mb, and 131mb of that is a duplicate file that gets generated the second you load the map. Remove it and you're looking at 130mb for an 8k map. Big whoop. That's the same size as the ICON atlas. The smallest of all atlases! Wanna know why? Because it too, is 8k.

 

I don't know what you guys are looking at to determine how much space a map takes, but I'm assuming you're looking at the save game .rg files? That's not what gets shipped. Ship just the Worlds folder; the game will make the .rg files.

 

So yes, TFP can absolutely ship a few large maps and no one would even notice.

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The rad zone is a bitmap / map overlay.

 

It can have values from 0 to 3.

Currently only "3" is used by a buff.

 

So you can paint specific rad areas on the map.

 

How is that done ? I see the mentioned buff "3" in the buffs.xml, so i guess its not really in there (yet) ?

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I think it was on vanilla setting

 

He's either full of crap or his test pool is extremely limited to sucky players; either way he's wrong. =)

 

That would limit travel somewhat, we 3 did a 8k on 120 minutes per day and saw most of the map in about 24 hours of play time. This was a 17 stable build.

 

On a side note, I like the messed up roadside RWG is putting out. If the POI would just not have so many of the same ones next to each other.

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That would limit travel somewhat, we 3 did a 8k on 120 minutes per day and saw most of the map in about 24 hours of play time. This was a 17 stable build.

 

On a side note, I like the messed up roadside RWG is putting out. If the POI would just not have so many of the same ones next to each other.

 

 

If you're in a tight knit group, sure, you really don't *need* to travel far... we were doing a Nav map just north of Diersville and had not gone very far at all, but the key there is we were a group.

 

In a real life situation on an actual active server, there are more groups, plus individuals, and things get looted and horded so quickly that you NEED to travel and explore.

 

Now, the following is going to sound like a slam against TFP, and although it's not my intention, I don't see a nicer way of putting it...

 

TFP has proven time and time again that they do not understand how people play their game. They keep pushing the short-sighted agenda of "8 player co-op group" which is why they're okay with 1 lcb, small maps, the streamlined perk play system, leveled loot, etc... they simply don't understand that people play this game for much, much different reasons and in much much different ways than intended, and that it has large scale multiplayer potential...

 

...too much time in single player games like Skyrim and Fallout, I imagine.

 

But, it's their vision, they're going to do what they want, so we just need to continue finding ways around the limitations they set. And there's nothing wrong with that, every game developer does it. From a business standpoint, you HAVE to stick with a roadmap or you're going to end up with scope creep, which is what TFP was in danger of I'd hazard to say just prior to a16.

 

FORTUNATELY, a lot of the limitations that are perceived don't actually exist at the moment, most people just haven't found a way around them yet. =) (Looking at you, large map "issue" that doesn't actually exist.)

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How happy will be people be if I said "heres your infinite map with floating pois, moses parted seas, roads that run into cliffs", etc? We're fixing bugs, optimizing map gen time and making it pretty, THEN we can look into size. Priorities.

 

My group and I would be pretty happy. :D

 

Skyrim is an example of this sort of thing, you can overlook a ton of bugs if the gameplay is there to back it up. For us, infinite maps with everything else this game brings to the table is a wholly unique and awesome experience. Limited island based maps are done in many other games (and better since they're usually hand crafted) and reduces the appeal of RWG in general since there's such a limited space to explore in the first place.

 

a16.4 emphasized building, exploring vast worlds, tower defense, and looting. Basically our dream game lol.

 

a17 is much more like ark, rust, conan exiles, etc as a foundation. Emphasis on grinding and action. Basically something for us that is fun in short bursts but lacks staying power. These types of games are kind of interchangeable and easy to burn out on. RWG adds a cool element that other games of these types don't have, but ultimately these games are more about the action than the exploration, so RWG is a limited novelty because of their action focus and small size. You really don't need RWG in these types of games, just a few different well-crafted maps and\or workshop support for custom maps.

 

But I'm a developer \ programmer and I get it. I have to agree with your priorities even though I don't agree with the overall direction of the game in a17.

 

I'm positive graphics have lost you guys sales. It took a while to talk a few of my friends into buying the game because they either went to your website or looked up old articles and saw alpha 14 or below style graphics and immediately became disinterested in the game. Once I got them playing in a16 though they totally looked past any shortcomings because the experience was so unique, but it's definitely a barrier.

 

So keep on keeping on. We'll be eagerly waiting for those maps to get giant again, and for the direction to swing back to a16 style of gameplay. :)

Edited by OldManBrian (see edit history)

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How is that done ? I see the mentioned buff "3" in the buffs.xml, so i guess its not really in there (yet) ?

 

Thanks to Alloc and KhaineGB, got the answer (okay mostly alloc but Khaine gave me the buff to test)...

 

tmpradzone.png

 

Green is Rad1

Blue is Rad2

Red is Rad3

 

...it's a bit more interesting than that, like you could potentially combine rad effects, which opens up LOTS of possibilities, but meh. This is the simplified version.

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What are you guys even talking about? An 8k map is 261 mb, and 131mb of that is a duplicate file that gets generated the second you load the map. Remove it and you're looking at 130mb for an 8k map. Big whoop. That's the same size as the ICON atlas. The smallest of all atlases! Wanna know why? Because it too, is 8k.

 

I don't know what you guys are looking at to determine how much space a map takes, but I'm assuming you're looking at the save game .rg files? That's not what gets shipped. Ship just the Worlds folder; the game will make the .rg files.

 

So yes, TFP can absolutely ship a few large maps and no one would even notice.

Thank you. When i came up with shipping the game with pre installed “large” maps i had no clue how big of space it would actually take. But lets even say they shipped the game with 10 very large maps, at the most it would take up 2gb. 2tb hard drive nowadays is the norm so i doubt thats an issue especially when games are releasing taking up 50+ gigs and will probably start hitting 100+ in the near future.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I also think the 10% is too low and probably a measurement mistake. For example after a server restart because of a bug (I don't remember the exact circumstances) my map got covered by fog again. A similar thing could have happened on that server or simply the telemetry data was wrong.

 

BUT I hope the "us" in your post is just refering to your group of friends and not to players in general. EA is not for everyone. My group is playing A17 for months now and we have fun with it. It definitely was ready for us.

 

 

 

Oh yes. I still hope to make a burning buff eventually that is able to spread to and burn down wood blocks.

 

Hey man if your having a blast with A17 more power to you! I really wanted to love a17 trust me, and there was some awesome changes, but it felt like 2 steps forwared and 1.5 steps backwards for me.

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Thanks to Alloc and KhaineGB, got the answer (okay mostly alloc but Khaine gave me the buff to test)...

 

tmpradzone.png

 

Green is Rad1

Blue is Rad2

Red is Rad3

 

...it's a bit more interesting than that, like you could potentially combine rad effects, which opens up LOTS of possibilities, but meh. This is the simplified version.

 

Thank you :-) Does this work out of the box painting the radiation.png or is some work needed ? I did also notice the radiation.png is always smaller in size as the other world files. My guess it gets stretched.

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Thank you :-) Does this work out of the box painting the radiation.png or is some work needed ? I did also notice the radiation.png is always smaller in size as the other world files. My guess it gets stretched.

 

You'd still need to write buffs for what rad1 and rad2 actualy do, but yeh otherwise it's out of the box. So my plan is to take radiation.png, resize it to my world size, paint my radiation zones, then resize it back. You /can/ leave it the same size, but as Alloc says, that takes up memory.

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You'd still need to write buffs for what rad1 and rad2 actualy do, but yeh otherwise it's out of the box. So my plan is to take radiation.png, resize it to my world size, paint my radiation zones, then resize it back. You /can/ leave it the same size, but as Alloc says, that takes up memory.

 

Nice, areas where the zombies get x10 speed and x20 Damage

HAR har

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