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Developer Discussions: Alpha 17


Roland

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17  

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  1. 1. Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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since we are not on the subject of brass. lets talk about how it can become a shortage, especially in a server that has gone on for 100s of days.

 

Facts:

-- Brass in game comes from finite objects, car parts, house parts/items.

-- Ammo needs brass

-- you don't get your casings back :(

-- can make brass because the game does not have copper and Zinc

 

We need a solution - maybe a Geology perk that allows for discovery of other resources like Zinc/Copper that can be smelted?

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If the intent to cause player error about something they should have innate unerring knowledge with just a simple thought (no menu looking in a backpack) then that is indeed trolling and being purposefully a bad design. End game, no point even talking discussing it if the goal is to punish the player for not having the innate knowledge that should be provided by the their body.

 

Even in real life when you get distracted (and when you are distracted you are often not looking at the GUI) you can miss queues. Correct, but it only takes an instant or even passing thought to remind you. You don't have to make a conscious effort to look in a backpack.

 

You've made quite clear your intention is to punish the player for not knowing something they would innately. This is an encouragement of bad design.

 

 

Maybe the way it is said could be looked at it that way. But personally I don't think the way it is now is a bad design. It is just simply a opinion of if you like it the way it is or don't like it. But I wouldn't call it a bad design. I happen to be one of the ones that do like the way it is and I don't ever open the character menu up to check where I'm at. So I personally don't need anything in my face 24/7 showing me where I'm at. It already has the info I need when I need to know. But this is my preference and I'm not saying it is the best and the other is worse. So I can understand where the ones that want it in the face all the time are coming from. But I wouldn't call what is in place right now a bad design.

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since we are not on the subject of brass. lets talk about how it can become a shortage, especially in a server that has gone on for 100s of days.

 

Facts:

-- Brass in game comes from finite objects, car parts, house parts/items.

-- Ammo needs brass

-- you don't get your casings back :(

-- can make brass because the game does not have copper and Zinc

 

We need a solution - maybe a Geology perk that allows for discovery of other resources like Zinc/Copper that can be smelted?

 

I have tons of 7.62 rounds that don't use brass but a steel casing. They are actually the cheapest option too. I think brass should only be used in electronics and be sold in ingots at the trader. Steel for bullets 2017!

 

amm-6400_1.tif&wid=1000&cvt=jpeg

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If the intent to cause player error about something they should have innate unerring knowledge with just a simple thought (no menu looking in a backpack) then that is indeed trolling and being purposefully a bad design. End game, no point even talking discussing it if the goal is to punish the player for not having the innate knowledge that should be provided by the their body.

 

Even in real life when you get distracted (and when you are distracted you are often not looking at the GUI) you can miss queues. Correct, but it only takes an instant or even passing thought to remind you. You don't have to make a conscious effort to look in a backpack, looking down at an out of the way GUI element is the equivalent of said passing thought.

 

You've made quite clear your intention is to punish the player for not knowing something they would innately know if the body was their own. This is an encouragement of bad design.

 

Maybe the way it is said could be looked at it that way. But personally I don't think the way it is now is a bad design. It is just simply a opinion of if you like it the way it is or don't like it. But I wouldn't call it a bad design. I happen to be one of the ones that do like the way it is and I don't ever open the character menu up to check where I'm at. So I personally don't need anything in my face 24/7 showing me where I'm at. It already has the info I need when I need to know. But this is my preference and I'm not saying it is the best and the other is worse. So I can understand where the ones that want it in the face all the time are coming from. But I wouldn't call what is in place right now a bad design.

 

Just adding for myself.

Nor does stating your opinion based on how you like it, is encouraging bad game design.

Srry Red, it's just your opinion that it's encouraging bad game design and it's Roland's opinion on how he likes it and would like to see it go.

 

Roland can't help it if he's an 'M'. It's just how his brain is wired. (jk jk)

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since we are not on the subject of brass. lets talk about how it can become a shortage, especially in a server that has gone on for 100s of days.

 

Facts:

-- Brass in game comes from finite objects, car parts, house parts/items.

-- Ammo needs brass

-- you don't get your casings back :(

-- can make brass because the game does not have copper and Zinc

 

We need a solution - maybe a Geology perk that allows for discovery of other resources like Zinc/Copper that can be smelted?

 

As the resident geologist; I approve of this!

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Just adding for myself.

Nor does stating your opinion based on how you like it, is encouraging bad game design.

Srry Red, it's just your opinion that it's encouraging bad game design and it's Roland's opinion on how he likes it and would like to see it go.

 

Roland can't help it if he's an 'M'. It's just how his brain is wired. (jk jk)

Correct, it is my opinion that it is bad design to punish the player with an error of wasting resources or going out when not properly fed or hydrated because the innate knowledge that their own body would have told them was hidden in a menu in a backpack instead of where a passing thought would have filled in the information just as a passing thought in real life answers the state of own's own body.

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Just adding for myself.

Nor does stating your opinion based on how you like it, is encouraging bad game design.

Srry Red, it's just your opinion that it's encouraging bad game design and it's Roland's opinion on how he likes it and would like to see it go.

 

Roland can't help it if he's an 'M'. It's just how his brain is wired. (jk jk)

 

 

I know how more options isn't always the best thing but in this case I don't see why or where it would hurt to have a hub option menu in the vanilla. That way everyone gets what they want with no worries of mods one way or the other. Because it is pretty clear what one thinks is a bad game design the other does not. Where one doesn't ever open up the pack but yet still knows where they are on food and water the other does not. Just seems something like this would be better off having it in the option menu along with what you want to show and not show with no mods needed.

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So until this game has some way of linking me to my character directly, forcing me to stop everything to check the basics is very much bad design.

 

Perhaps a few new buff icons would suffice

Full = :fat: small negative to stamina regen

Normal = (No icon / negatives or positives

Hungry =:offended: no negatives or positives

Very Hungry = :distrust: Stomach grumbling sounds

Starving = :upset: Standard negatives

 

Just a thought.

I relay don't have a strong feeling one way or the other...

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1. Screen cluttering - Small bars clutter screen, so remove health bar. Except there is no way to feel how hurt you are without a bar. Same goes to hunger. I would actually say that notifications at certain points (25,50,27%) are more clutter then hunger/thirst bar. Distracting popup at the time you didn't want it.

 

This isn't my argument for not having the food bar. This is my argument for why removing everything and playing with invisible HUD is so awesome. On the issue of popups, however, which one is it? Are they too distracting or too unnoticeable? Seems pro food bar people will say whatever they want. If the pop ups are more distracting then why are you missing the notification?

 

2. and 3. Just eat something to know and no damage until 0% - IRL i don't eat something to know whether i'm hungry. And what if i don't have anything to eat and i'm sick and all bunch of stuff (survival situation) it is vital for me t know what task is more urgent. Having hunger at 11% sometimes makes it more urgent then infection. So i HAVE TO look in the menu to know my priorities. (btw numbers are not important, seeing a hunger bar gives a rough estimation enough, no need to ridicule that someone needs to know exactly 78 or 79%)

 

Let me clarify. You are correct that eating for the purpose of finding out if you are hungry is backwards and not intuitive. My point has always been that you are not actually starving until you are at 0%. There are zero penalties for any percentage of fullness and if you overeat you get the extra even though it the popup will only show 100% as the max. So if you think about it (as you would in real life) and wonder if you could eat something and you know its been at least a few hours since the last time you ate then the answer is that you can go ahead and eat and you don't have to check a bar for permission. I agree that 11% is a critical stat for needing to eat and its also literally only a few seconds away from the permanent indicator of 10% that will count down to 0% for you. The only time when eating at 11% vs eating at 10% is going to be a matter of life or death is.....never. So I'm not really saying to eat in order to know-- I'm saying that you can eat pretty much any time you are worried about it and want to check because from 11% to 99% the feeling of "I could probably eat something..." is the same.

 

4. missing the notification at 75% 50% 25% simulates ignoring signs of hunger - more likely simulates that i'm only able to perceive my stomach emptiness at certain fullness levels - every quarter. This is not true at all. IRL i know my fullness roughly every time i think about it, which inside a game would be the time i would look at the hunger bar.

 

No. It's more like that at 100% you can't eat another bite. From 11% - 99% you are satisfied and not really hungry at all but you also aren't full and you could eat something if you wanted to but its not really necessary. In other words, I don't really even think the pop ups at 75%, 50%, or 25% are even necessary. All you need is the tummy rumbling and and the permanent 10% icon. The other popups are just twinges. You can certainly think about whether you are wanting to eat something more often than those notifications and when you think about it you can eat instead of going to the character screen.

 

5. Anxiety, excitement distracting from hunger - When i'm in a fight with a zombie horde i don't notice the hunger bar even when it's visual. Most of the time i don't notice it even when doing unexciting stuff. It's actually not "in my face" all the time.

And the personal example of not eating 3 days rather proves the need for the bar. You can do that in real life but not in a game, even after eating a full stag worth of meat.

 

The personal example was simply to show that in real life you can often not feel hungry when you are. People who say that they are always aware of how full or how hungry they would be in the environment depicted in the game are simply wrong. They would not. Three days of real life loss of appetite has nothing to do with proving a need for a bar. Your admitted profound unawareness when playing the game is actually the proof that perhaps you personally do need the crutch of an always visible bar although from your own description maybe you also need that bar to pulsate.....

 

I don't need it or want it.

 

6. Is the game better or worse for not having /an artificial extended info/? - this does not compare to basic intuitively known first hand info.

 

7. Again, artificial vs intuitive way of perceiving hunger. Mistakes will more likely be made because of bad design. Because believe me, even with visual bars you can forget to eat up before a long trip.

And "worrying" about a tiny minority who would get wellness up few minutes faster (eating at 99% rather then 50%) is just random... No difference in the long run.

 

These are the same arguments that came up when the minimap was removed. "The game will suffer." "The map simulates our ability to be aware of our surroundings in a way that isn't possible in a first person perspective video game" "People will die having to go to a different screen to check their map and that is bad design"

 

But the result is that it was great design and people got used to it. The only difference here is that most of the people who complain are those who never got used to it because they immediately modded bar back in. I played this game for almost 1000 hours while it had the food and water bars and I never looked back after they were removed. I like it a lot better without the bars. But I realize that its just my preference and I'm not against playing a modded game so if they put the bars back in I'll be fine.

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Roland's post came up before I saw it, busy typing the post below. I still don't agree with him, but that's okay, it is our opinion. He doesn't have to agree with me in how I see it. If you are busy busting up rocks and your hunger has dropped to 0% and a zombie horde shows up, you will probably die before you finish killing them as you didn't have time to check and see if you are hungry, missed the percentage that states you are hungry. You may not have time to kill all the zombies and then go and find some food as a new player who hasn't seen any game for two days and found very few cans of food.

 

**************** my post before I added to it.

On hunger, all I know is that in real life I can physically feel when I am hungry and thirsty. My character can only let me know by sounds and the silly looking pop-ups that half the time I miss as she is busy doing stuff. Sounds that I can miss when running for my life, fighting to stay alive, digging, busting rocks or other activities where I am focused on them. I'm not physically feeling the hunger/thirst so I don't know she is hungry or thirsty.

As for the temp. Sorry, but I think the sun and snowflake are downright silly, idiotic looking. I get a silly frown when I am too hot! Or a snowflake when it is getting cold. I can see that in a kiddie game, but a zombie game?

There needs to be a bar for hunger, thirst, heat and cold, wellness, health. I don't care about experience, stage, levels or such. I can check them when I am free and not in danger. I don't have time to check the others when I am fighting, struggling to stay alive. They can be as simple as a glass that has blue in it for water that drops as you get thirsty or looks full and lowers with your need for water. Thermometers that show red for hot and blue for cold. Bars work also, but if they want something that doesn't take up room use symbols like I have seen in other games. A plate for food that loses color; a circle that has blue ring for water and gold for hunger. A quick glance lets you know your hunger/thirst is dropping and you need to take care of it.

It doesn't have to take a lot of room, but I personally think it is needed, not the xp, or skill level or something that isn't connected to my staying alive; just my opinion.

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I completely agree that the game would be better with no hud - a watch should be used for the compass and time of day, and day count etc which you can look at from time to time.

 

If you have more character feedback, for instance the screen going red or even grey as you near death, maybe even more sounds, and more dramatic breathing when below 10 stamina and trying to run perhaps - cos u don't need those bars on there. Also loud heart beat sounds when bleeding out would be nice!! Or dripping blood over your eyes, would be awesome.

 

The only thing left that is a tricky one is your belt. That could pop up when you scroll the mouse wheel and then disappear again, and obviously be always visible when you open your inventory - perhaps also pop up briefly when you press the number keys etc.

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since we are not on the subject of brass. lets talk about how it can become a shortage, especially in a server that has gone on for 100s of days.

 

Facts:

-- Brass in game comes from finite objects, car parts, house parts/items.

-- Ammo needs brass

-- you don't get your casings back :(

-- can make brass because the game does not have copper and Zinc

 

We need a solution - maybe a Geology perk that allows for discovery of other resources like Zinc/Copper that can be smelted?

 

Make tin cans have a brass forge weight of around 10.

 

Its not a freebee as tin cans are already valuable now in making oil. But you can always loot cans off of Zombies given a strong reason to take on hordes with a melee weapon or x-bow.

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Correct, it is my opinion that it is bad design to punish the player with an error of wasting resources or going out when not properly fed or hydrated because the innate knowledge that their own body would have told them was hidden in a menu in a backpack instead of where a passing thought would have filled in the information just as a passing thought in real life answers the state of own's own body.

 

lol. Yeah It's not like you just have to suck it up when you're running late for work, don't even realize you had nothing to eat till you get there but you cant get anything because it's not your break time yet. Yep never happens. Or you get focused on something and don't even realize you haven't ate for over a day... kinda like how you get focused on doing tasks in the game and forget you need something to eat or drink..?

yeah real life is a bad game design.

Are you really going to tell me you never forgot to eat in real life when you should have?

 

It's not like the info in the game is just 1 press of a button away either...

 

I know how more options isn't always the best thing but in this case I don't see why or where it would hurt to have a hub option menu in the vanilla. That way everyone gets what they want with no worries of mods one way or the other. Because it is pretty clear what one thinks is a bad game design the other does not. Where one doesn't ever open up the pack but yet still knows where they are on food and water the other does not. Just seems something like this would be better off having it in the option menu along with what you want to show and not show with no mods needed.

 

Yeah, I would like to see option(s) to turn certain things Add/Remove/Move with a click of a button n drag certain windows and lock them into place on the screen. Also increase or decrease certain window sizes on the fly at some point as well.

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If the intent to cause player error about something they should have innate unerring knowledge with just a simple thought (no menu looking in a backpack) then that is indeed trolling and being purposefully a bad design. End game, no point even talking discussing it if the goal is to punish the player for not having the innate knowledge that should be provided by the their body.

 

Even in real life when you get distracted (and when you are distracted you are often not looking at the GUI) you can miss queues. Correct, but it only takes an instant or even passing thought to remind you. You don't have to make a conscious effort to look in a backpack, looking down at an out of the way GUI element is the equivalent of said passing thought.

 

You've made quite clear your intention is to punish the player for not knowing something they would innately know if the body was their own. This is an encouragement of bad design.

 

Punishing and allowing for human error that can have survival repercussions are two different things. Keeping the food bar off the screen is "punishing" in the same sense that removing the minimap with zombie radar blips was "punishing" players. The same exact arguments were thrown out at that time. The radar blips were said to compensate for the lack of environmental awareness that a video game has compared to real life and those who wanted it called its removal "poor design" as well. (I even recall a deaf guy threatened to cause bad press if it wasn't reinstated)

 

My intent is not to punish players but to remove unnecessary crutches from the game if that removal results in more situations where survival is threatened and the player has to adapt and fight for their life. Without the blips one could get hit from behind and stunned and then killed. But that risk adds value to the game and forces the player to be more vigilant and when something bad happens and you survive it creates a triumphant moment that makes the game feel awesome.

 

Same is true of the food bar. Without it you may forget to check and then find yourself in a precarious spot with only 10% fullness left and what you choose to do at that point could lead to a triumphant moment or death and it is that specific scenario that makes this survival game addictive. Every time you find yourself in a situation where imminent triumph or imminent death are both very possible the game gets good.

 

The food bar on screen is too much of an aid in my opinion. It robs the gameplay of those moments of triumph vs death just like the minimap with zombie radar blips robbed the game of those same type of moments.

 

The only real difference between the two was that YOU were able to reverse the food bar with your HUD mod probably almost immediately and never gave it a real chance whereas modding in the minimap was not possible so you had to adapt. If the minimap could have been modded back in immediately and with the same relative ease as the food bar you can bet that it too would be a hugely popular mod and a whole faction of the community who never really gave it a chance or adapted their gameplay to the new normal would be still calling its removal "punishing" and "bad design".

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The only real difference between the two was that YOU were able to reverse the food bar with your HUD mod probably almost immediately and never gave it a real chance whereas modding in the minimap was not possible so you had to adapt. If the minimap could have been modded back in immediately and with the same relative ease as the food bar you can bet that it too would be a hugely popular mod and a whole faction of the community who never really gave it a chance or adapted their gameplay to the new normal would be still calling its removal "punishing" and "bad design".

 

I can't speak for the majority but I can tell you that I definitely wouldn't. I started playing after the removal of the hunger/thirst bars and mini-map, so the current HUD is all I know. But while I call for hunger/thirst to be added now I'm also against a mini-map, and this is why I don't like bringing up ultra realism arguments into game design.

 

I don't argue for hunger/thirst for realism (though I may argue against realism based counterargument points that don't make sense to me). I do so because I find it useful information for what I consider there to be no downside to having.

 

But I argue against a mini-map because I find it unnecessary and totally out of place for a survival game.

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I think it'd be great to have two different HUD modes. 'Standard' with added hunger and thirst bars (and a temperature indicator would be nice), and a 'True Survivor' mode that disables nearly everything and relies on audio/visual cues and pop-up notifications.

 

This is an idea I can get behind. Options.

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But poor game design doesn't allow interaction with the world when you do that

 

;)

 

But interaction is immersion breaking. Or um... Lack of interaction ability makes the game harder, and that was essentially one of rolands arguments, so...

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I have tons of 7.62 rounds that don't use brass but a steel casing. They are actually the cheapest option too. I think brass should only be used in electronics and be sold in ingots at the trader. Steel for bullets 2017!

 

amm-6400_1.tif&wid=1000&cvt=jpeg

 

that is a great idea - Steel (forged steel) to make casings @Roland @TFP or whom ever is in charge "Make it So!"

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