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Developer Discussions: Alpha 17


Roland

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17  

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  1. 1. Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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You quit playing a game because of the hud? Not sure what you see wrong with it, its minimalistic, takes up very little room and is easy to read with all info on there.

 

What was your issue with the Hud?

 

And I didnt say that very same hud, but the symbol for food and water only in place of bars. Bars are cliche.

 

It was one of the top reasons, all time something was blinking and anoying

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To hud or not to hud

 

I've been reading the points and counter points.

 

If this proposition has been offered already please correct me.

 

Would it be possible to just make the XUI information screen a WYSIWYG html coded screen. This way TFP can build a vanilla screen set to their base standard, But if the coding pointers are still left in the background, any user can set their screen frontend as they like. It would also make for the modders an easier medium to achieve they optimal visual screen. Html is a bit more liberal when adding say anigif, color ranging, color shift, external media calls. Also you could edit the XUI with a browser.

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While I'm in 100% agreement that perfect knowledge takes more away from the game than it gives back, that has little to do with what information one should have available to them at any given moment in a game like this.

 

And exactly what information should be available at any time? Someone needs to know that they are 78% vs 77%? No? well then how about 80% vs 70%? Is that a critical interval? Even sitting there in front of your computer screen in the comfort of your home or office can you really tell if you are 65% full vs 70% full? Right now as I type this I just don't feel hungry. I'm satisfied. No idea if I could qualify that as 60% satisfaction with fullness level or 61%.

 

I feel the current level of notification is plenty. You are notified at 75% 50% 25% and then the popup stays on permanently after 10%. Add to this fact that every time you actually do eat or drink something you see the percentage notification again. On top of this there are the sounds of hunger and then even the text message once you are at 0% and then the pain noises and the music that comes with a loss in wellness.

 

How can this not be enough warning? You missed a notification because you were busy? That simulates that you ignored the signs of hunger because you were anxious or pumped or stressed or intensely focused on a task. That is good design that simulates well what would actually happen. A food bar tracking every percentage point from 100 down to 1 and putting it in you face all the time is not only unrealistic it is also too assisting in a survival game.

 

In my opinion.

 

And preference has a huge role to play in what makes "good design".

 

Couldn't disagree more. Design can be assessed independently of personal preference. In fact, the inability to separate out your own preferences when analyzing the design of a game is a personal weakness to my mind. There are lots of games that I personally don't enjoy but that does not mean that they weren't well designed.

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I feel the current level of notification is plenty. You are notified at 75% 50% 25% and then the popup stays on permanently after 10%..

 

And thats the point, i cant remember that i ever saw a 75% or 50% popup. I want a simple bar that give me the info when i want it it, and no popup that i miss because i have other things to do.

I dont care about 50% or 60%, what i ask for is a simple small bar i can see in which region my

* Hunger

* Thirst

* Stamina

* Health

and

* temperature

is.

 

When i freeze and my Hunger is at 20% its allready to late to act sensefully.

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I have to say that at first I really wasn't happy about the initial shift away from the minimap and the always on food, water, stamina, health bars.

 

But then when they were gone I realized I was obsessing over keeping them full rather than playing the game.

 

They are fine now, work as designed to give information about constraints rather than a "keep the green bar full" minigame.

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@Roland Where you and I differ is in what we consider good game design and the implications of certain HUD information on the game play experience. I can somewhat agree on some things such as time, date, and compass, and I definitely agree that a mini-map is totally unnecessary and immersion breaking. But for basic body information pertaining to the character such as health, stamina, thirst, hunger, and even temperature I think you are simply incorrect.

 

Having this information on HUD only serves as a QoL convenience. It doesn't make for bad game design and the lack thereof certainly doesn't make for better. The only reasonable argument here that I can see is convenience vs clutter, and even then I think it's unwarranted to call it clutter given the design of the HUD as it is currently.

 

The current design allows for missed information due to not paying attention which is a completely consistent simulation of a survivor in a stressful and intense environment.

 

The current design gives "signs of hunger" rather than to the percentage knowledge of 74% vs 73% vs 72% fullness

 

Adding the food bar would virtually remove any player mistakes in regards to hunger. It would be almost impossible to accidentally face the survival situation of starvation due to player error.

 

The food bar with its percentages encourages and facilitates gamey behavior for things like getting your wellness up which is unnatural behavior that has nothing to do with how you feel hunger or fullness in real life.

 

So beyond clutter there are some valid design reasons to do periodic notifications and sound effects rather than always on percentage point by percentage point perfect knowledge.

 

I get that lots of other games include a food bar. I'm glad TFP made a different choice and I hope they continue to do things that will allow players to make mistakes and have to live with the consequences of those mistakes.

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And thats the point, i cant remember that i ever saw a 75% or 50% popup. I want a simple bar that give me the info when i want it it, and no popup that i miss because i have other things to do.

I dont care about 50% or 60%, what i ask for is a simple small bar i can see in which region my

* Hunger

* Thirst

* Stamina

* Health

and

* temperature

is.

 

When i freeze and my Hunger is at 20% its allready to late to act sensefully.

 

If you keep missing the popups then you should work on improving your situational awareness. Also you can already know what you want to know when you want to know it. Eat something. You'll instantly know. Screen changing is not required.

 

If you went into freezing weather unprepared then you never did act sensefully to begin with...

 

Freezing and hunger at 20% is awesome gameplay if you manage to survive it. It will take a lot of skill and some luck and require smart actions by the player to cope with it all but in the end it makes for an awesome experience that would NEVER have a chance of occurring if you always are being reminded to keep that green bar topped off. What a sad and meh game to never get to face situations like that. Oh sure, you could go into the snow biome on purpose but what a contrived and stupid thing to do. Doing it because you forgot to eat ( life has been so stressful lately in the apocalypse) is so much more immersive and then trying to survive the consequences is, to me, what makes it so much fun.

 

Lets ALWAYS have plenty of food and water whenever we ever go scavenging is ho hum boring compared to CRAP! I forgot to eat and now I'm halfway to the city and must choose to either risk it and hope to find food out there or return to base and miss a day of looting. That is way more interesting and risking it and going out there without the food way more thrilling.

 

Sorry guys, I just don't agree that having that constant reminder and perfect knowledge makes for better gameplay.

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I Go with Rolands Opinion. Though He personally probably would love to have no Hud at all but thats none of my business. I am enjoying the Hud as it is right now. I played since a5 and i experienced many changes. This Hud can stay as it is for me, i got everything i need to know when looking into the down-left Corner. Even if theres nothing, i am assured, everything is fine.

And if Hunger/Thirst were to sneak to the 10% without me knowing (i Eat ingame like i would do IRL: 5 medium-small meals a day and that pop up nearly never shows me the 10% mark. My Water is constantly full because yucca juice is an awesome energydeliverer and under constant use, so no prob there either.

 

And if people mess up, they Messed up on their own behalf. This is no Hello kitty-Minecraft-Mod :I

 

To me its a mix of Dark souls (because this game punishes for mistakes too), Voxel fortress building and Left 4 Dead 2

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I was playing around with a Proof of Concept mod Doombringer101 was making... basically, each thing you crafted had components, like pistols do, and I distinctively remember that the string on my stone axe would break after like 2 hits...

 

...now, some might thing that was frustrating, and it was, but it was also a blast! I had a zombie in the area and it took me about 45 minutes to actually kill it. And it was awesome. Nothing could be crafted while running either, so you were sitting there tying a string around a rock and stick just so you could ineptly bash it against a zombies head.

 

Shame fortnite took Doom from us, but he'll be back one day, and I hope to see that PoC come to life.

 

That day is fast approaching ;)

Now I just need to know if the new physics system will let us mod in hydraulic based wall launcher type traps to push those husks... err zombies into spike pits ;)

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Freezing and hunger at 20% is awesome gameplay if you manage to survive it. It will take a lot of skill and some luck and require smart actions by the player to cope with it all but in the end it makes for an awesome experience that would NEVER have a chance of occurring if you always are being reminded to keep that green bar topped off.

 

If the Weather Food and water system would be intuitive you would be right. My experience (a few experimentals ago) was different.

Drink to 100%, leave your Bedrockbase, Dig down to bedrock 50 Blocks away, on half way (3-5 Real Minutes later) overheat (Desert in the night) and Water dropped to zero before i reached bedrock. (Ragequit game)

Sorry this is only crap so far away from "an awesome experience" as possible.

 

No idea if it is fixed in 16.4 no time to play before my mod is done.

 

 

I am enjoying the Hud as it is right now...

It could be worse. Means not that it can not be improved

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And exactly what information should be available at any time? Someone needs to know that they are 78% vs 77%? No? well then how about 80% vs 70%? Is that a critical interval? Even sitting there in front of your computer screen in the comfort of your home or office can you really tell if you are 65% full vs 70% full? Right now as I type this I just don't feel hungry. I'm satisfied. No idea if I could qualify that as 60% satisfaction with fullness level or 61%.

 

I feel the current level of notification is plenty. You are notified at 75% 50% 25% and then the popup stays on permanently after 10%. Add to this fact that every time you actually do eat or drink something you see the percentage notification again. On top of this there are the sounds of hunger and then even the text message once you are at 0% and then the pain noises and the music that comes with a loss in wellness.

 

How can this not be enough warning? You missed a notification because you were busy? That simulates that you ignored the signs of hunger because you were anxious or pumped or stressed or intensely focused on a task. That is good design that simulates well what would actually happen. A food bar tracking every percentage point from 100 down to 1 and putting it in you face all the time is not only unrealistic it is also too assisting in a survival game.

 

In my opinion.

 

 

 

Couldn't disagree more. Design can be assessed independently of personal preference. In fact, the inability to separate out your own preferences when analyzing the design of a game is a personal weakness to my mind. There are lots of games that I personally don't enjoy but that does not mean that they weren't well designed.

 

You seem fixated on the straw man percentage argument, when all I'm seeing is a bunch of people who don't want to have to look at another screen to see if they're hungry or not. It's not rocket science, or even rock science.

 

Video games have limitations, huds are necessary to combat some of those limitations.

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You seem fixated on the straw man percentage argument, when all I'm seeing is a bunch of people who don't want to have to look at another screen to see if they're hungry or not. It's not rocket science, or even rock science.

 

Video games have limitations, huds are necessary to combat some of those limitations.

 

It is NOT a party unless we invite the straw man, Gup you know this.

 

That said, I have watched many streamers, seen many mods. ALL have the hud back on screen. It would seem the absence of food water etc is a very unpopular decision. Bringing back an XP bar no one asked for seems a bit........silly? Especially when just about everyone seems to want a HUD back that is of actual use.

 

I know when I am thirsty and hungry. Normally I do not orgasm in pain when I am one of those things. Maybe sometimes I need reminded to eat when I am busy. But never once did i have to consult my notepad to check if I needed a burger or a beer.

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The current design allows for missed information due to not paying attention which is a completely consistent simulation of a survivor in a stressful and intense environment.

 

The current design gives "signs of hunger" rather than to the percentage knowledge of 74% vs 73% vs 72% fullness

 

Adding the food bar would virtually remove any player mistakes in regards to hunger. It would be almost impossible to accidentally face the survival situation of starvation due to player error.

 

The food bar with its percentages encourages and facilitates gamey behavior for things like getting your wellness up which is unnatural behavior that has nothing to do with how you feel hunger or fullness in real life.

 

So beyond clutter there are some valid design reasons to do periodic notifications and sound effects rather than always on percentage point by percentage point perfect knowledge.

 

I get that lots of other games include a food bar. I'm glad TFP made a different choice and I hope they continue to do things that will allow players to make mistakes and have to live with the consequences of those mistakes.

 

By "current design" I'm referring more to the health and stamina bars along with the way that other information is displayed currently. If clutter were legitimately an issue then many other things right now would be bigger culprits. But since other things are presented in the way they are it is unjustified to use that specific reason to not include hunger and thirst. Of course I know you feel that it's all clutter, just pointing out that others can't say hunger and thirst is clutter if they're ok with all the other stuff.

 

Starvation was never an issue for me to begin with, and I only just recently started using a HUD mod. In all my play time I've only lost maybe one or two points of wellness from food or water deficiency, that threat was never an issue to begin with because as you say, awareness isn't difficult. For me it's strictly an issue of convenience. You can argue that the mechanic as a whole is kinda gamey, but hiding the information in a menu and making it more annoying to check doesn't fix that.

 

And I don't care about having exact percentages actually, they could just be bars with an icon for all I care, and health and stamina could be the same. It's not the 72% to 73% that I care about, it's the 72% to 28%, and I'd just rather not have to search through a menu to obtain that simple information.

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I know when I am thirsty and hungry. Normally I do not orgasm in pain when I am one of those things.

 

LOL!

 

@Roland -

 

I don't care how much exp I am gaining, except as a casual interest in my progression.

 

I do care what my current, up to the second, status is when it involves life or death.

 

Guppy pretty much took the words right out of my mouth - removing the hud was a bad game play design on TFP's part.

 

-A

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You seem fixated on the straw man percentage argument, when all I'm seeing is a bunch of people who don't want to have to look at another screen to see if they're hungry or not. It's not rocket science, or even rock science.

 

Video games have limitations, huds are necessary to combat some of those limitations.

 

All I'm seeing are a bunch of people who think they have to look at another screen to see if they are hungry or not when in reality they don't. If TFP removed the bars from the character screen no one would be lost in hunger any more than anyone got lost in the terrain when the minimap was removed. Do people have to constantly switch to the map screen to figure things out? No. There was a period of adaptation but soon people got used to getting their bearings by using the first person view of the world instead of the top down arrow orientation view. <shrug> Maybe there ARE still people constantly switching to the map screen....

 

You can instantly know how hungry you are by eating. There is zero downside to it. If you are full then you won't be able to eat. If you are hungry in any degree then you can and take note of the new level of fullness. If you don't want to find out by eating then wait for the next notification.

 

I talk about percentages only to make the point that we don't really need to know fullness with the granularity of a food bar and to answer those who seem concerned or think that 30% means your character is hungry in any meaningful sense (it does not). Plus its presence adds gamey behavior and holds the player's hand too much so they never have to face the situation of possibly starving thanks to constant reminder of exactly where they are on the spectrum.

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LOL!

 

@Roland -

 

I don't care how much exp I am gaining, except as a casual interest in my progression.

 

I do care what my current, up to the second, status is when it involves life or death.

 

Guppy pretty much took the words right out of my mouth - removing the hud was a bad game play design on TFP's part.

 

-A

 

I don't want the xp bar either. And I would say that from about 10% to 100% life or death is not involved. 0% for about 15 minutes yes. But guess what? Way before that point you have your information on the hud.

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All I'm seeing are a bunch of people who think they have to look at another screen to see if they are hungry or not when in reality they don't. If TFP removed the bars from the character screen no one would be lost in hunger any more than anyone got lost in the terrain when the minimap was removed. Do people have to constantly switch to the map screen to figure things out? No. There was a period of adaptation but soon people got used to getting their bearings by using the first person view of the world instead of the top down arrow orientation view. <shrug> Maybe there ARE still people constantly switching to the map screen....

 

You can instantly know how hungry you are by eating. There is zero downside to it. If you are full then you won't be able to eat. If you are hungry in any degree then you can and take note of the new level of fullness. If you don't want to find out by eating then wait for the next notification.

 

I talk about percentages only to make the point that we don't really need to know fullness with the granularity of a food bar and to answer those who seem concerned or think that 30% means your character is hungry in any meaningful sense (it does not). Plus its presence adds gamey behavior and holds the player's hand too much so they never have to face the situation of possibly starving thanks to constant reminder of exactly where they are on the spectrum.

 

Zero downside in eating to determine whether or not you're hungy?

 

Let me list the ways...

 

1 - It's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded

2 - I lose that food, which could be more useful when I'm REALLY hungry

3 - Since the speed hunger increase/decreases based on activity, it's still not a good barometer

4 - So knowing I have just a little bit of blue left to level up is better?

5 - Hunger isn't always just about maxing stats, in this game it's a LIFE OR DEATH FACTOR. Unlike, well, pretty much everything else on the screen.

6 - It's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded.

 

At this point I /know/ you're trolling, so I'll let others take the bait. =)

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I don't want the xp bar either. And I would say that from about 10% to 100% life or death is not involved. 0% for about 15 minutes yes. But guess what? Way before that point you have your information on the hud.

 

...except to say that under the right circumstances, 10% to 0% can happen pretty damn quickly, and you end up not even being able to PLAN around eating... maybe that's it? You're not a planner? Well, I am, and apparently so are a good deal many other people... now I won't sit here and say that "we need it because we're paying customers and it's what we want", but I will say it's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded NOT to cater to the wishes of the masses...

 

Most popular mod? Hud mods. Why? Because not having the info is ♥♥♥♥ing retarded.

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You seem fixated on the straw man percentage argument, when all I'm seeing is a bunch of people who don't want to have to look at another screen to see if they're hungry or not. It's not rocket science, or even rock science.

 

Video games have limitations, huds are necessary to combat some of those limitations.

 

Depends on how its done. The lack of an information display could be used as information in itself - ie. The current two bars: If my stamina is at 100% I would not need to see a bar, and if my health is at 100% no need for it either. So by not seeing something in that corner I just know that its at 100%.

 

If you go one step further I would say 80% is still not really relevant info and could still be not shown - I know when I run, and I know when I get hit - so if I run/get hit, see nothing in the corner I know its not 100, and I would still know its not below 80%.

 

Its not necessary for all information to be displayed all of the time, but a mix that just shows relevant info might be. No need for Stamina, Health, Hunger, Thirst and temperature bars all at once; no need to show hunger and thirst above ie 50% or stamina above ie 80% but would be nice to have those bars fade in once they become relevant to me...

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All I'm seeing are a bunch of people who think they have to look at another screen to see if they are hungry or not when in reality they don't. If TFP removed the bars from the character screen no one would be lost in hunger any more than anyone got lost in the terrain when the minimap was removed. Do people have to constantly switch to the map screen to figure things out? No. There was a period of adaptation but soon people got used to getting their bearings by using the first person view of the world instead of the top down arrow orientation view. <shrug> Maybe there ARE still people constantly switching to the map screen....

 

You can instantly know how hungry you are by eating. There is zero downside to it. If you are full then you won't be able to eat. If you are hungry in any degree then you can and take note of the new level of fullness. If you don't want to find out by eating then wait for the next notification.

 

I talk about percentages only to make the point that we don't really need to know fullness with the granularity of a food bar and to answer those who seem concerned or think that 30% means your character is hungry in any meaningful sense (it does not). Plus its presence adds gamey behavior and holds the player's hand too much so they never have to face the situation of possibly starving thanks to constant reminder of exactly where they are on the spectrum.

 

But unlike the map change we are 2 Alphas in to this Hud change and people are still pretty adamant about not liking it much. Maybe if it wasn't standard to see this info in every other survival game. Same can be said for Stamina and Health. No one needs it and if you want just look into the menu to see it. But for the most part many seem to agree having the info there is better than not.

 

I'm not saying I disagree with it being gone as a mod. It is an interesting way to play, but for standard and to appeal to the almighty general gamer which Pimps try VERY hard to do having it there seems to be the way to happiness.

 

Do I want it back? Nope. I know how to mod and have zero issues doing it. I always put it back. But others most likely dont and wont. Most likely the majority of the people who like not having a hud are pretty decent at modding already anyway.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Zero downside in eating to determine whether or not you're hungy?

 

Let me list the ways...

 

1 - It's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded

2 - I lose that food, which could be more useful when I'm REALLY hungry

3 - Since the speed hunger increase/decreases based on activity, it's still not a good barometer

4 - So knowing I have just a little bit of blue left to level up is better?

5 - Hunger isn't always just about maxing stats, in this game it's a LIFE OR DEATH FACTOR. Unlike, well, pretty much everything else on the screen.

6 - It's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded.

 

At this point I /know/ you're trolling, so I'll let others take the bait. =)

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

...except to say that under the right circumstances, 10% to 0% can happen pretty damn quickly, and you end up not even being able to PLAN around eating... maybe that's it? You're not a planner? Well, I am, and apparently so are a good deal many other people... now I won't sit here and say that "we need it because we're paying customers and it's what we want", but I will say it's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded NOT to cater to the wishes of the masses...

 

Most popular mod? Hud mods. Why? Because not having the info is ♥♥♥♥ing retarded.

 

There are a LOT of planners. I am reminded of this every day when our resident mathematician points out ALL the faults in my mods food program lol

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