Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[crazywildfire]

I hear you but some sort of indicators are needed. IRL you don't need things floating in your face to let you know what's up. ZT pointed out, your body tells you. But in game you don't have that. Your disconnected from your avatar and don't know when your avatar needs to eat, drink eta. And while you pointed out that you could kind of feel. It really is a guessing game and you know how players get so into it that they forget to check.

 

What I would suggest is more of what TFP's have been doing with popups. For example: When you get hungry you get something that pops up that lets you know your running low on food. Then quickly goes away.

 

 

 

But an even better idea is to use other indicators such as sound. Like the stomach growling. Currently you only hear this sound when you are already starving.

 

Instead make it so you hear it when you start to get hungry and more often when your avatar gets closer to starving.

 

Other sounds could be added to such as coughing for thirst. This will let the player know that there is something wrong and see what's up.

 

I'm truly sorry but I'm a little confused. Lol so please don't take this the wrong way because I might be missreading it. So sorry if I have.

 

It does tell you already. We already have something that pops up. When it starts getting low it pops up and goes away. When it gets what 30% it pops up and stays until you get it back up above 30%. While you eat/drink it pops up and shows what % you are at if it is above the 30% it goes away after a minute or something...... the same with temperature if you are between 31 and 89 you are good. If you go above or under those then it pops up and don't go away until you get back between them..... I do agree the sounds could use work and stuff but everything is already on screen just doesn't stay in your face 24/7.

[Roland]

If I don't see the hunger/thirst bars on screen then I don't know whether I'm hungry or thirsty ingame. As a result I feel compelled to repeatedly open the character page to find out.

So not having these bars on the main hud is less immersive.

But that's just me.

 

There is no logical explanation for why it is this or that way. It just is.

 

I can give a logical explanation why the current system is more true to life than having 24/7 moment to moment percentage information constantly floating in front of your vision. It is based upon these premises:

 

1) Your character is not ever actually starving until he reaches 0%. 1% - 100% carries not one single penalty or gameplay change to your character.

 

There is never any reason to eat a single thing until your character is at 0%. That is when the penalties start and you can go for awhile without any serious repercussions happening to you. You may lose a wellness point or two but that is not life threatening in the least. So in the game as it is currently it is really simple to check whether you are hungry or not at a moment's notice. You look to see if there is a popup on the screen that says 0%. If it is there you are hungry and if it isn't then you are not. There is never a need to check some other screen to see if you are hungry. In the game you always know if you are hungry or not. Instantly.

 

2) Stress, adrenaline, worry, concentration, anxiety, excitement, etc. are all things that can cause you to not feel hunger or fatigue for long periods of time in real life.

 

People who say they always know exactly how hungry they are in real life must be living very peaceful lives. About 15 years ago when I was laid off from work and had no idea how I was going to take care of my family I didn't eat for three days because the stress and anxiety masked my appetite. All I could think about were my problems and I didn't eat or even sleep much. Was I hungry? yes. Did I feel it? no. It is logical and reasonable to assume that in a zombie apocalypse your character would be running on adrenaline and stress all the time and actually pretty easily ignore the signs of hunger until the consequences became so dire they would be forced to acknowledge them.

 

This is the apocalypse and not Thanksgiving morning sitting on the couch and watching the parade and thinking about whether you feel like Lucky Charms or Froot Loops...

 

So the game seems pretty close to a real life situation where there is stress and adrenaline. Popup warnings and audible hunger pains that CAN be missed in the heat of the moment and then when the first wellness is lost working as a wake up call that you have to take care of yourself or things will get dire-- seems pretty true to life for anyone who has actually felt stress.

 

I would also like to challenge Roland again while I'm here....

 

The human body has indications when food or water is low, the brain, stomach and the kidneys for example as well as many other processes involved in feedback regulate our systems so that we are made aware of being hungry or thirsty, full and hydrated, and this game is not real life.

 

Just as we don't need to be told we are hungry, the character shouldnt, and in real life this hunger and thirst is manifested in the awareness, so in game it should be in the HUD. You wouldn't need to open your diary or check a mobile app or look at your bio page to know when you're hungry, and that complements Gazz's point.

 

The game already has this awareness. Every time you eat or drink a popup makes you aware of your new level. At regular milestones a popup comes up to make you aware of your percentage of fullness. When you get to 10 or 20% the popup becomes permanently on the screen so you can't miss it and your character's stomach starts to rumble. Guess what? Through all of this you aren't really hungry yet because true hunger doesn't start until you are down to 0%.

 

Now if you miss these indicators because you as a player are stressed at the wrong moment then that simply feeds back into the idea that in actual life people miss hunger indicators due to stress and adrenaline.

 

But as I said earlier I think options are the key to this so that people can add or remove the elements and get only the info they want.

 

Absolutely. If I could remove all HUD indicators through an option and someone else can have them all present that would be great. I'm also happy with modding it the way I want.

 

Well.. To be honest you can still check whether you are filled for 40% (for example). It's just hidden away in a sub-menu which you have to open everytime when you want to check it.

 

So yes, I'm of the opinion that hunger/thirst meters should be added to the HUD if an XP-bar is going to be added to it. That, or neither.

 

Neither.

 

Anyway, hunger is entirely different. Until there's a usb port to my stomach we should have indicators that our character is hungry.

 

Agreed. Just as there is no USB port to my stomach to know at every moment what percentage of fullness I am at there should not be a permanent bar giving us moment to moment perfect knowledge of our character. The indicators in the game are more than sufficient. I play a mod to remove all but the audible stomach growling and that is more than sufficient so I know for a fact that getting popup notifications every time you eat or drink plus at set milestones down to zero plus permanently showing notification once you are at 10%, plus the stomach growling, plus the fact that the first penalty is a minor wellness point loss well after you have been at 0% for a reasonable amount of time.

[Ouch Quit It]

FIGHT FOR THE HUD

THE MODDER VS BASE GAME

 

Stallionsden vs zombietoad at the trader flagpole...3:00pm...thats 1500 hrs

Early enough so we don't get kicked out.

 

Canned goods and water and tea will be available for purchase.

Cash only please.

 

Bartering also accepted.

 

Please bring bandages.

 

General admission with standing room only.

 

Ouch

[The-Walking-Dad]

I know, right? The minimalists already have a built in function...

 

The inbuilt function stops us using containers etc though.

[Guppycur]

The inbuilt function stops us using containers etc though.

 

Should be an easy fix.

[Roland]

Gazz

 

If you want to cure people of the compulsion to constantly switch to the character screen to look at their hunger and thirst bars the best solution is to simple remove those also. Then there would be nothing to check and people would have to rely on the plethora of indicators the game already has for the journey from 100% fullness all the way down to 1% fullness until finally actual hunger sets in at 0%.

[KingSlayerGM]

There is never any reason to eat a single thing until your character is at 0%.

 

Actually there is.

 

Sometimes if I have plenty of food, I want to eat even when I am at 99%. So my wellness grows faster.

[ZedBullfrog]

Gazz

 

If you want to cure people of the compulsion to constantly switch to the character screen to look at their hunger and thirst bars the best solution is to simple remove those also. Then there would be nothing to check and people would have to rely on the plethora of indicators the game already has for the journey from 100% fullness all the way down to 1% fullness until finally actual hunger sets in at 0%.

 

I am pretty OCD about eating/drinking so I wouldn't mind relying on queues from my character that its time to nourish.

 

Does spamming food and goldenrod tea increase your wellness more quickly though?

[CptLaserPants]

@Roland But with that logic they might as well remove health from the HUD too since there are visual/audio cues and there's no actual penalty until you're at 0%. Get rid of many of the buffs too because irl those would be unnoticed in high stress situations. I know you've said that you would like to get rid of almost everything but that's a really extremist play style, and the logic you use already conflicts with the entire current layout. Considering what's already shown on HUD currently it only makes sense that something as simple as hunger and thirst were added too.

[Gazz]

@Roland But with that logic they might as well remove health from the HUD too since there are visual/audio cues and there's no actual penalty until you're at 0%. Get rid of many of the buffs too because irl those would be unnoticed in high stress situations.

Yeah, and stacks with a count >100 only show "lots" because you won't intuitively know if that's 4031 or 4183 wood. =)

[ZombieToad]

Mhh. Someone wants to get banned again.

 

Lols and what part of my post is banworthy thanks? The light hearted humour? The referal to another post I made complementing both Gazz and Roland and offering suggestions?

 

Could it be me pointing out that I am allowed to challenge opinions? Or perhaps clarifying the term 'incapable'?

 

Or is the myopic remark in which I state some users here are short sighted when it comes to reading my posts? Or is it that I am off topic?

 

Oh wait, that's right, my post was referring to the HUD which both myself, Gazz, Roland, even Stallion would have all been off topic then.

 

Please enlighten me.

 

And as a kind reminder, please see the video they uploaded recently, and the front page in which the experience bar is being visualised (implemented above the item bar) in the HUD. Just a thought incase you think I am being off topic ^^

 

 

@Roland - Yeah but what about mining all day. No stress in that, pretty safe, and you just forget the hunger and thirst.

 

Gazz's point I think was that opening the character screen is the only way to check outside the popups. If that's the case, everytime you open the screen that is the point at which the immersion is gone.

 

What would the real life counterpart of that be?

 

 

FIGHT FOR THE HUD

THE MODDER VS BASE GAME

 

Stallionsden vs zombietoad at the trader flagpole...3:00pm...thats 1500 hrs

Early enough so we don't get kicked out.

 

Canned goods and water and tea will be available for purchase.

Cash only please.

 

Bartering also accepted.

 

Please bring bandages.

 

General admission with standing room only.

 

Ouch

 

Lmfao

 

 

Just thinking, maybe for a real hardcore mode, offer the option to remove the hunger and thirst indicators from the character screen too. Now THAT would be immersion and closer to real life xD And it would float Rolands boat

[Guppycur]

Making even one wooden bow that can kill something takes a couple of days and that's IF you already know exactly what you are doing. Without prior knowledge, everyone's character would die from not know dozens of details on surviving, growing crops and hunting with a bow.

 

What is broken is trying to introduce reality into a game. The reality of survival is boring and tedious.

 

In your example of stone axes. Making a stone axe without prior knowledge how to chip one rock off another and what rocks work best is just having you make more bad axes.

 

I was playing around with a Proof of Concept mod Doombringer101 was making... basically, each thing you crafted had components, like pistols do, and I distinctively remember that the string on my stone axe would break after like 2 hits...

 

...now, some might thing that was frustrating, and it was, but it was also a blast! I had a zombie in the area and it took me about 45 minutes to actually kill it. And it was awesome. Nothing could be crafted while running either, so you were sitting there tying a string around a rock and stick just so you could ineptly bash it against a zombies head.

 

Shame fortnite took Doom from us, but he'll be back one day, and I hope to see that PoC come to life.

[Gazz]

If you don't like numbers/math, you should become a geologist, mate!

You still get to deal with mineralogy plus a whole bunch of chemistry. You're a useless geologist without that...

 

And with mineralogy I don't mean knowing which crystal is for happiness and which one for ED.

[Maharin]

how would drinking water after increasing a perk be any different to not having a perk and oh i am thirsty i need to drink so you drink til your thirst is quenched.

 

Or are you saying the perk is like better quality water like at level 2 the water is murky and possibly not good yet at level 50 the water is top quality.

 

or

 

at level 2 you drink and it fills a small amount of your thirst. at level 50 you take take a drink and it fuills completely. (this way dont make sense)

 

Your body "uses up" the water you consume at a much faster rate than the food you consume, which is why you need more water per day than you do food. Which is also why your body is designed to retain water and that helps make it so you don't feel thirsty all the time.

 

For the perk, I'd say it would be more like the difference between someone that lives in a humid climate versus the person that lives in a dry climate. In dry climates (hot or cold) your body learns to retain water and not be so wasteful (there are potential bad side effects to this but that mostly becomes a factor if the transition is quick). So you sweat less, recycle water in your body a little more, that sort of thing. The perk is like making your body think you're in that climate all the time so you don't need as much water coming into your body since it escapes from your body at a slower pace.

[Maharin]

Knowledge is the path and experience is the slope. Knowledge tells you that the town you want to visit is on the other side of the mountain. Experience tells you whether going over or going around is the best choice. Memorizing more stuff doesn't make you better at applying that knowledge.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

You still get to deal with mineralogy plus a whole bunch of chemistry. You're a useless geologist without that...

 

And with mineralogy I don't mean knowing which crystal is for happiness and which one for ED.

 

Does eating dirt make you better at geology?

[The-Walking-Dad]

Should be an easy fix.

 

Could you explain how?

[ZedBullfrog]

Lols and what part of my post is banworthy thanks? The light hearted humour? The referal to another post I made complementing both Gazz and Roland and offering suggestions?

 

Could it be me pointing out that I am allowed to challenge opinions? Or perhaps clarifying the term 'incapable'?

 

Or is the myopic remark in which I state some users here are short sighted when it comes to reading my posts? Or is it that I am off topic?

 

Oh wait, that's right, my post was referring to the HUD which both myself, Gazz, Roland, even Stallion would have all been off topic then.

 

Please enlighten me.

 

And as a kind reminder, please see the video they uploaded recently, and the front page in which the experience bar is being visualised (implemented above the item bar) in the HUD. Just a thought incase you think I am being off topic ^^

 

 

@Roland - Yeah but what about mining all day. No stress in that, pretty safe, and you just forget the hunger and thirst.

 

Gazz's point I think was that opening the character screen is the only way to check outside the popups. If that's the case, everytime you open the screen that is the point at which the immersion is gone.

 

What would the real life counterpart of that be?

 

 

 

 

Lmfao

 

 

Just thinking, maybe for a real hardcore mode, offer the option to remove the hunger and thirst indicators from the character screen too. Now THAT would be immersion and closer to real life xD And it would float Rolands boat

 

You're a troll and your presence on this forum is toxic.

 

A. You are unaware of this, and generally not self aware.

 

B. You are aware of this and are trolling for fun.

[Jackelmyer]

At that topic i would simply like a different time/Date

Instead of

 

i would like

 

 

I really hope we get the option to Randomize the Hordenights.

If this happens a Day to horde Bar would be problematic/senseless

 

 

 

All well and good Royal. I frankly want to avoid having to go to special measures to count past 10. Don't hate me. I use computers to think for me. Let them Math... I just wanna play.

[Stonx]

I cannot for the life of me understand why the developers opposition to giving paying customers the food and water bars that we keep asking for.

 

Saying that people can just mod them in is a bit silly because as soon as they do that you will not accept their bug reports as the game is not vanilla anymore. Plus it's a hassle. For something so simple and so popular just enable it via either -

1. A game setting option (so all players on a server have to this for fairness) or

2. An option in the options menu so that any player on any server can switch them on or off as and when they wish.

Don't try to think up tenuous excuses to avoid this - just do it. Anyone working in a tertiary industry needs to accept that "The customer is always right." It doesn't matter how you personally feel about this - you need to accept that expecting a modern first person game to have no hud info is an extreme, niche position.

 

The idea for A17 onwards is that food will smell again and become hazardous to be carrying about on loot runs. All we want is to glance at the bars before leaving base for said loot run to make sure we have enough sustenance to complete the task without needlessly endangering health/wellness.

 

Also, saying that once you are fully hungry you might only lose a couple of wellness points as if that is something trivial... Once your wellness is over 150 you will need to consume about 3 entire deer to get that couple of points back.

 

Plus the stupidly loud character cues regards food, water, temperature and exhaustion are something that many of us will try to avoid. Not just for our own sanity but because it can give your position away in PVP.

[chaosterone]

 

 

Does eating dirt make you better at geology?

 

Lol. Nope. But it lets you leave interesting specimens for geologists to examine.

 

As for HUD indicators to tell you if your hungry or thirsty. Why? I eat and drink before going on an adventure or mining. While I loot I eat or drink what I find and toss the rest (except for the first week before I have chests full of junk). Unless you're playing 25% loot, a drink or food are just a few game minutes away. This is just my perspective.

[ZedBullfrog]

I cannot for the life of me understand why the developers opposition to giving paying customers the food and water bars that we keep asking for.

 

Saying that people can just mod them in is a bit silly because as soon as they do that you will not accept their bug reports as the game is not vanilla anymore. Plus it's a hassle. For something so simple and so popular just enable it via either -

1. A game setting option (so all players on a server have to this for fairness) or

2. An option in the options menu so that any player on any server can switch them on or off as and when they wish.

Don't try to think up tenuous excuses to avoid this - just do it. Anyone working in a tertiary industry needs to accept that "The customer is always right." It doesn't matter how you personally feel about this - you need to accept that expecting a modern first person game to have no hud info is an extreme, niche position.

 

The idea for A17 onwards is that food will smell again and become hazardous to be carrying about on loot runs. All we want is to glance at the bars before leaving base for said loot run to make sure we have enough sustenance to complete the task without needlessly endangering health/wellness.

 

Also, saying that once you are fully hungry you might only lose a couple of wellness points as if that is something trivial... Once your wellness is over 150 you will need to consume about 3 entire deer to get that couple of points back.

 

Plus the stupidly loud character cues regards food, water, temperature and exhaustion are something that many of us will try to avoid. Not just for our own sanity but because it can give your position away in PVP.

 

There is currently functionality to show/hide the heads up display. So, if you wanted options to show/hide just parts of the display (like display the belt but not the health status) you would need at least a few more gameplay options. I'm personally not for this because I think the options menu is busy enough.

 

"The customer is always right" always has a ring of truth to it because it has been bandied about for a long time. But it assumes a couple things:

 

1. The customer knows what they want.

2. Their request is rational (not saying yours isn't rational)

3. It isn't the minority voice.

[sillls]

I'm truly sorry but I'm a little confused. Lol so please don't take this the wrong way because I might be missreading it. So sorry if I have.

 

It does tell you already. We already have something that pops up. When it starts getting low it pops up and goes away. When it gets what 30% it pops up and stays until you get it back up above 30%. While you eat/drink it pops up and shows what % you are at if it is above the 30% it goes away after a minute or something...... the same with temperature if you are between 31 and 89 you are good. If you go above or under those then it pops up and don't go away until you get back between them..... I do agree the sounds could use work and stuff but everything is already on screen just doesn't stay in your face 24/7.

 

Well yes you did. But that's ok. I was thinking more of them.

 

But anyways as I was stating before. Perhaps we could replace them with (more) sound cues. While they are already in the game. They don't come into play until the player is around 25% or 10%. I was thinking that sound cues could start at around more like 50%. Then become more frequent as it continues to drop.

[Kalex]

If I don't see the hunger/thirst bars on screen then I don't know whether I'm hungry or thirsty ingame. As a result I feel compelled to repeatedly open the character page to find out.

So not having these bars on the main hud is less immersive.

But that's just me.

 

I agree. In real life, I always know to what degree I am hungry or thirsty. I hate having to flip to the character page all the time to check something my character should always be aware of.

[Aldranon]

Yeah, and stacks with a count >100 only show "lots" because you won't intuitively know if that's 4031 or 4183 wood. =)

 

I'm liking yours and cptLaser's comments.

 

It would be great as part of hardcore:

You don't know your exact heath, hunger, thirst, damage done, location, day ect...

 

Wow! scary and fun!

[Obuthan]

Many are commenting on specifics around IRL, game breaking, immersive, game necessities.

It has been said that seeing too much on the HUD is unwanted. While still needing to understand the current state of wellbeing at that moment in the game.

Many have argued that a mini map is required and that seems to be something that the Devs are going with. So why not remove the percentages and bars and place a color ring on the exterior of the mini map? It’s already there. The color can change according to your food/water needs. Maybe have a upper and lower color band (or a Yang and Yang symbol since it’s dealing with wellbeing. One side for food, one for water) to symbolize this. No percentages. Since you don’t go around saying “I’m 50% full now. Maybe that Apple will bring me to 62%?”

At a quick glance you get an over all impression of your body needs.

We are often looking up at the mini map anyway.

 

Just my 2 cents.