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Developer Discussions: Alpha 17


Developer Discussions: Alpha 17  

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  1. 1. Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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I dunno, are you reading the thread? "Learn by doing" is a big thing with people. For example (emphasis mine):

 

 

 

I don't want to get better at running by running around the map. It becomes "oh I better run around for an hour or two today to make sure I grind out some Fortitude XP." As Gazz said, it's not great gameplay.

 

I think it'll be better after they balance the non-zombie XP.

 

The point I feel is being made is that we want more interaction for progression. A17 has you basically killing zombies just to get better at everything. Quite a few of us preferred the learn by doing model and would love to see that brought back even if it is just for the attributes. Grinding on zombies to improve INT is more ridiculous in my opinion then grinding on crafting. Either way it is a grind, but at least it feels more natural to do things related to the attribute.

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I use BlueFang and have been able to do RWG on my server since the 1st A17e... sounds like your hosting company is giving you the run around.

 

wouldnt be the first time ....

probably have to contact support again I guess... thx for ur reply

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I dunno, are you reading the thread? "Learn by doing" is a big thing with people. For example (emphasis mine):

 

 

 

I don't want to get better at running by running around the map. It becomes "oh I better run around for an hour or two today to make sure I grind out some Fortitude XP." As Gazz said, it's not great gameplay.

 

I think it'll be better after they balance the non-zombie XP.

 

I have to agree. It sounds nice in theory but it reminds me of games like Skryim where to get better at sneaking people walk into a wall or run around damaging & curing themselves to get better at Restoration.

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The point I feel is being made is that we want more interaction for progression. A17 has you basically killing zombies just to get better at everything. Quite a few of us preferred the learn by doing model and would love to see that brought back even if it is just for the attributes. Grinding on zombies to improve INT is more ridiculous in my opinion then grinding on crafting. Either way it is a grind, but at least it feels more natural to do things related to the attribute.

 

I feel like TFP just doesn't want someone to be doing the same exact thing over and over and over and over to increase that skill, but wanted you to be more free to go about normal activities and still get better at everything. The grind tends to push people away more than not. Repetition is a lot of people's weak spot, lol.

 

Though if you widened the range of what lvls up an attribute, even if it builds xp for multiple attributes, then that could work. But even fighting would raise INT, because you would then learn better ways to deal with zombies, learn how to use your environment around you, learn what materials are best against them, learn how each zombie acts and best way to deal with them. While out fighting zombies, you could see new things, and by doing that, learning how to make them or what materials are best for said items.

 

As I said earlier, I would rather there be a mix, but I understand their point too.

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I have to agree. It sounds nice in theory but it reminds me of games like Skryim where to get better at sneaking people walk into a wall or run around damaging & curing themselves to get better at Restoration.

 

I like it _because_ it reminds me of Skyrim.

 

Most craftsmen produce the same thing over-and-over again, to later sell them. Soldiers practice sneaking and shooting for a long time before they ever get near a battlefield. Doctors practice injecting underneath an orange peel before they start jabbing needles into patients.

 

That's how you gain skills in real life.

 

I have no problem with people grinding to get skills, I came up with a few inventive ways in Skyrim myself, it's when they complain that they've chosen to do it. They want the reward without the work.

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Gain by use skills need to be carefully constructed to make sense and not be just to do x until y happens. Especially when gameplay is a factor. I liked that system, but the spam crafting and other "mini-games" were really off putting.

Edited by TSBX (see edit history)
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Mhmm, I don't have much time a week to play this game, rather not spend all of it sitting on a cactus, or just running across the map, or just hitting a rock for a few hours...

 

Why would you feel the need to? Is it efficiency?

 

The skills you are using in your normal gameplay will be increasing naturally anyway.

 

The lowest levels of a character are usually the most fun, where you feel you have accomplished something heroic against greater odds.

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Quite an interesting phenomena. After a17e was released, the positive steam ratings skyrocketed (to 85 if i remember correctly). After a17 stable released, the same positive ratings plummeted (currently hovering in the low 60's).

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why should you get exp for sitting on a cactus or letting a zombie hit you over and over? getting hit should be a negative thing in a survival game, not something you should be grinding

 

Sitting on a cactus is a silly way to level up, why would you do it?

 

Fighting in armour is different than fighting in a thong. You must learn to use the fact that your armour has strong points to your advantage and use them to provide openings that would otherwise be unavailable. You must also be aware of the armours weaknesses to guard against exposing them. There's more to armed melee than just waving sharpened metal spikes at each other while clutching your grandma's occasional table to fend off blows.

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Quite an interesting phenomena. After a17e was released, the positive steam ratings skyrocketed (to 85 if i remember correctly). After a17 stable released, the same positive ratings plummeted (currently hovering in the low 60's).

 

It's the whole, it's in the public now, they try it, don't like it because it's rougher early on or different, then give bad reviews. Once they play longer, realize mid to late game is actually better or easier, then they are happy, etc. etc. Typically happens any game that has a big update, lol.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

why should you get exp for sitting on a cactus or letting a zombie hit you over and over? getting hit should be a negative thing in a survival game, not something you should be grinding

 

Right, but someone was saying that taking hits would increase Fortitude (if was like A16 system). Well you don't want to get hit by zombies and risk infection, bleeding, death. So sit on a cactus, take hits, raise attribute, jump off, heal up, repeat, lol. That's why I was saying that having that be a cause to increase anything wouldn't be right since the whole aspect of survival is to NOT ever take damage. That's all.

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Right, but someone was saying that taking hits would increase Fortitude (if was like A16 system). Well you don't want to get hit by zombies and risk infection, bleeding, death. So sit on a cactus, take hits, raise attribute, jump off, heal up, repeat, lol. That's why I was saying that having that be a cause to increase anything wouldn't be right since the whole aspect of survival is to NOT ever take damage. That's all.

 

It should be pretty trivial to remove xp gains from cactus damage, that's a pretty weak argument.

 

You have obviously never trained in martial arts. Sometime you must take one on the chin to win. :-)

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We call those kind of people "joggers" in real life. Nobody is forcing you to max out your character, that's a choice you are making. I've played many rpg games where I ignore a portion of the mechanics because the character has no interest in them.

 

I've advocated movement speed being tied to how far you've traveled on foot, if you want to sit in a car all day then go ahead but don't expect six-pack abs and a decent cardiovascular system from doing it.

 

Yep, I agree, it's awesome and logical in real life. Makes for horrible gameplay, though.

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Its allways bad to be forced to do things you normally would avoid in a survival situation

 

Entirely true but nobody should be forced to kill a zombie they don't have to either. There should be non-dangerous and grindy way to improve a skill or a quick and dangerous way learn it. The difference between Tai-Chi and Muay Thai.

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Entirely true but nobody should be forced to kill a zombie they don't have to either.

 

Am I the only one who has read Gazz' several comments about upcoming XP rebalancing? Killing zombies is not (or will not be) the only way to advance. The complaint from most is not "there should be some non-zombie-killing way to earn XP", it's "we want to earn Agility by shooting arrows, or Fortitude by surviving food poisoning".

 

If all you want is a way to advance without having to go kill zombies (an idea I wholeheartedly support, BTW), then TFP has you covered. Just let 'em sleep off the New Year's hangover and they'll get to work on it. :-)

 

In my MP game I actually enjoy mining (just found my first iron vein last night yay me) so getting additional XP mining will be great. Of course when my co-op partner is in game he can run off killing zombies and looting POIs and I just leech off his XP (yes I expanded the shared XP radius, why do you ask?). What I don't particularly care about is that mining XP goes (only) into "mining skill". I'm fine spending some of those SPs in mining, but also some into Agility so when I help with the POIs I'm not useless.

 

Speaking of iron ore: please remove the ability to scrap ore into iron. This is an area where I think realism = better gameplay. I have a chunk of rock with iron ore intermixed and somehow I can - with my bare hands - convert that into iron straps to make a club? Plenty of scrappable items in the game; it's too easy to get scrap iron from ore, IMO. Everybody has a reinforced iron club in the first couple of hours. You want to convert a chunk of rock into usable iron? FORGE OR GTFO. <dons asbestos suit>

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Just got to day 29 in A17 stable, and I really like the progression with the food so far, as I've looted most nests everywhere I can think of, farming has become more and more important, and now the change has come from bacon and eggs to meat and veg stew, really liking that.

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Spam Crafting is bad um-kay. Sitting on cacti is bad um-kay. (heh South Park)

 

The current Perk system has a significant code/balance advantage; all the "experiance" goes into a single bucket. So Gazz balancing xp from mining is more straight forward than if mining xp gets split into multiple buckets.

 

And I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that a majority of players do -not- find sitting on cacti enjoyable. While there are, I'm sure, a few sick bastards (lets not judge now) out there who do enjoy it, that's between them and their proctologist.

 

Let's look at a couple counters besides xp: There's Distance Traveled. Zombie Kills. Number of Items Crafted.

I'm guessing but it may be possible & 'cheap' to add counters for: [Number of...] Blocks Placed. Blocks Upgraded. Blocks Destroyed.

 

Now rather than immediately trying to leverage those counters across the entire 300 lvls, say they're just used for useful but fairly minor 'upgrades' from Start till early-mid game; lvl 50? And not saying to lvl-gate them, just use a rough average of where a player would be at about lvl 50.

 

At 5km Traveled, un-encumber 1 Backpack slot. Similar until the entire third row is unlocked. Decrease Stamina use while Running a bit.

For Zombie Kills mix it up so a couple minor Damage +x%, Swing Speed, Stamina Use per swing 1 point less

Num of Items Crafted just decrease Crafting Time, _maybe_ bump Qual once or twice

 

Number of Blocks Placed/Upgraded/Destroyed are basically the Miner/Builder so less Stamina per swing using Axe/Pick/Shovel, Repair/Upgrade Tools, Hammer/Wrench/Nailgun could also get minor improvements.

 

Was thinking of how to do similar for Light Armor, maybe Heavy? Something like; if worn for x game hours Mobility/Stamina penalty reduced by x. But no idea if that would be a pain to track.

 

By keeping the rewards fairly small, and based on kind of broad counters, even if lots of folks decided to 'power lvl' it wouldn't unlock late game thingys.

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Speaking of iron ore: please remove the ability to scrap ore into iron. This is an area where I think realism = better gameplay. I have a chunk of rock with iron ore intermixed and somehow I can - with my bare hands - convert that into iron straps to make a club? Plenty of scrappable items in the game; it's too easy to get scrap iron from ore, IMO. Everybody has a reinforced iron club in the first couple of hours. You want to convert a chunk of rock into usable iron? FORGE OR GTFO. <dons asbestos suit>

 

Just so you know, this change (which is a great suggestion btw) would be criticized by the same voices we’ve been hearing as TFP further removing fun play mechanics to replace them with boring mechanics. Anything that is done to make getting results less convenient or on the same early day as before results in the shreaking.

 

Remove the ability to scrap raw ore in your backpack and it will reap the whirlwind.

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