Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Erik Louden]

@dev_team

 

...with the trend going towards "make every poi a dungeon crawl", have y'all considered KEEPING the "plain" copies and only turning them into crawls when they become a quest poi?

 

house_blue changes to house_blue_crawl or something?

 

Best of both worlds, and it wouldn't be so damn weird seeing EVERY building as a crawl...

 

I like this idea.

[Thecolours]

It would be cool if we got an xp bonus for clearing a poi dungeon of all the zombies. Something like 1000-1500xp.

[Gnomaana]

This guy is stating his opinion and you come out and say he made errors and he needs to correct them? That's laughable. Sad to know we have trolls in here.

 

Did you hear that whooosh sound?

[Benjiro]

And to put an exclamation point on my last post, I think it would benefit you and the Pimps well to look at other forms of feedback. A great case in point is the new random gen. Once again we are back to the ugly mish mash of biomes with no rhyme or reason from 16 (see a trend here with everything being reverted back to A16 standards).

 

Jax, its all part of the master plan.

 

First they introduce a feature that needs work but is usable. Then after people complain about issues that need fixed, they revert it to the old way. When people complain more, they put back the original work. And people are happy because its better. And those issues get swiped under the rug.

 

And Jax, i read your long post. Yes, the game needs to be hard but also REWARDING.

 

I personally have a issue with several changes in A17, because they make little sense. People like you who did the Ravenhearst True survival or Starvation already fixed a lot of the progression issues with A16.

 

But i can not forgive TFPs for content wise wasting 16 months on no real content, when guy like you added content to the game even in A16. Be it more complex crafting, more components, more realistic crafting, more reasons to actually go out to loot!!!!

 

This has not changed in A17. No matter how much TFPs slow do the progression with gates ( now gone ), it was the content what drove people. Survival, gather, build, gather more, make a pimping zombie proof palace with all the necessities for a luxurious life in the Zombie Apocalypse.

 

A17 is BORING after the first game week. Just like how A16 Vanilla was boring after the first week. The POIs create time sinks that stretch the game out a bit longer. The gates simply locked content behind grind fest but that is it.

 

In A16 you had a few goals. Mini bike book, Base, Forge, Advanced tooling. A17 it became about Levels, Levels, Levels because those are what you want to unlock everything. Bookcases are useless. Its all about Zombie killing, the biggest XP bonus system in the game ( even with the reduced XP now ). And Traders ... the biggest exploit in-game now.

 

Make me feel like my survivor actually matters! You like the new skill system Jax, good for you. I dislike how everybody feels the same. How the emotional attachment to your character becomes zero because its all about XP leveling like a lot of dumb down games. And yes, A17 is massive dumbed down ( < this is what most people will take offense with when posting this blog of text ).

 

A17:

A17 simply gives you no goals beyond surviving the first week ( imho ).

 

I want advanced crafting tools... Electricity that means something ( Think Subnautica! ), where your end tools are electrical based with batteries. Where i need to go out and find components for my base. Where i can find survivors so protecting my base actually means something!!!

 

The game GPSing on you during Blood moon is ridiculous, because people simple build two bases. It defeated the whole base / survive aspect. Let the game determine where my base is ( forges, chests, loot, time spend ) and send hords to those locations to break them down if you do not defend them! Losing a Blood moon base does not hurt as much as losing your forges and loot ( and survivors if NPS actually made it ingame! ).

 

That is how you make a game better Jax, like most modders tried to do. All the rest is noise, that distracts from this lacking goal, content and ... well, the little the game improved after all these years. Yes, i am not discounting the AI and graphical updates but content wise, the game really has not improved beyond electricity in A16. It has even been going backward with losing dynamic caves and other stripped features because of "balancing reasons".

 

A17 is being rebalanced again. Good ... but boy is it a wast of time to again balance a bunch of features that are easy to predict as unpopular. I can probably see my grandchildren in 15 years play A36 with a lack of content. *lol* ... Its more annoying to see how much Modders did with A16 and how much is undone again.

 

At some point TFPs need to stop changing the game and provide modders the tools to overhaul the game! Add content to support the modders, Have modders gain more access to deeper systems, add new content that modders can integrate because in my opinion, TFPs do not really understand what the players want. And have mods become a way to "sell" the game features. Even maybe pay modders!

 

You like cruel, go with X mod. You like more survival, go with Y mod. But these constant overhauls simply destroy every mod that is made ( and keep doing it until the modders are fed up redoing all the work in every release ). And that is a shame!

[requiemdios]

I lost Vehicles Too

 

Has anyone else been losing their vehicles during gameplay? I'm not sure if it's a bug or what. Running a dedicated MP server. Server has had 0 mods, completely wiped game folder with fresh install every build, and no saves since we have to start over at level 1 from the server wipe. Since B198 all player vehicles (bikes, minibikes, 4x4, motorcycles, gyro's) disappear. Sometimes showing up on the compass, then disappearing altogether upon log out and back in. Other times, just flat disappearing. LE will show the coordinates when it's still on the compass. Usually at some extremely high 1k number ****, 1026, **** for example.

 

I had a minibike up and vanish.

[Kalex]

Thats the hypocrisy im talking about. You should at least have the balls to admit that you did try to directly offend me there and take the reaction you got. But instead you make a drama out of how mean i were to you.

I know im getting called a ♥♥♥♥♥ for that again but it is what it is.

 

BECAUSE I WAS NOT TRYING TO DIRECTLY OFFEND YOU. Good lord boy, the world does not revolve around beating up on you despite what you seem to think.

[Guppycur]

To be fair to TFP, they're designing the game for players would MIGHT spend 50 hours on it...

[wolffblood]

To be fair to TFP, they're designing the game for players would MIGHT spend 50 hours on it...

 

This is true. Especially once they get their story line and all in, maybe up to 100 hours. I only have 200 hours in the game (avg is actually like what, 36 or something based on steam?). Only games I've played more hours in is MMOs (WoW, Guild Wars 1 and 2, Rift, etc.), Legends of Dragoon, and Final Fantasy 7.

[Guppycur]

This is true. Especially once they get their story line and all in, maybe up to 100 hours. I only have 200 hours in the game (avg is actually like what, 36 or something based on steam?). Only games I've played more hours in is MMOs (WoW, Guild Wars 1 and 2, Rift, etc.), Legends of Dragoon, and Final Fantasy 7.

 

Yeh and the thing is, it's a smart business decision. <shrug>

[wolffblood]

Yeh and the thing is, it's a smart business decision. <shrug>

 

Yepp, make the game last some 50 hours, and the RWG just gives it replay-ability more or less. Though with how it's being designed, I know modders can more or less make it into a completely different game. Most people won't know that. So that also increases replay ability.

[Gareee]

So can we get our plains biome back please?

 

I actually miss it and the pine forest as well. Typically at higher elevations you only see pines and scrub trees, and if a elevation biome was added that would mirror a lot of real world biomes.

 

I don't miss the never ending miles upon miles long biomes, but I do miss having more biome diversity. The latest build with the smorgasborg biome mix reminds me a bit the old combinations and the contrast between them.

 

FWIW, I'm not a fan of the north/south temperature biome placement, because if there are pois or resources I need from them, its far too easy to just head in one direction looking for them. I remember spending a day or two just trying to find a desert for aloe and yucca.

 

Small mile slices of our own real world biomes don't have polar north/south temperature diversity, and from a gaming aspect, I think it encourages more explanation not knowing where you'll find what you are looking for.

 

Observations on this build:

 

Anvilgate has been a PITA in the first 4 game days. I found a working one at my trader on day 1, spent two days mining and digging resources for an anvil, (as well as food and water hunting (more about that after this) and when I finally get enough loaded into it, I find I don't have a required perk for it. 8/ I know its a running exp change, and forged iron does me no good except repairing tools, but I DO miss my iron arrowheads. At this point I'll be lucky to have them on the first horde night.

 

As far as food and water are concerned, water seems a lot more scarce in this rgw mix. Its been a struggle to have enough. and water seems to burn through pretty fast now. Food wise, I haven't seen ONE animal at all in 4 days... that could be a random chance thing, but I went from yesterday's build killing 6 boars on day one to not seeing any at all in 4 days. Were they nerfed?

 

I've found scattered small buildings, but I haven't seen one of the puzzle pois, a store, or anything remotely like a city at all. (I don't preview the generator map, as that feels inorganic to play testing to me.)

 

I think there needs to be a stronger road smoothing algorithm.. I'm seeing a lot of jankiness elevation wise along roads, especially where two join and the elevation difference between them doesn't blend well.

 

Coming around a bend and seeing some of the desert biome on the side of a tall hill was great... it looked like an exposed outcropping of a mineral variant, and I DO love the ground texture and the color contrast between the desert and forest biomes.

 

For some reason it seems like the point of view while standing was lowered.. crouching feels like it makes less different, and zombies all seem taller than they were before. That might just be me though.

 

Early game so far is a struggle to survive just finding food and water, but there's been little time to do anything else but keep up on food and water. If not for my day 3 drop (mostly canned food with a 10% chance of food poisoning) I would have used up all my eggs as boiled eggs, and bacon and eggs are a pipedream since there are no animals to be found anywhere.

[Royal Deluxe]

if one of you have a B233 seed with 3+ Trader nearby would be nice if he can write that in the seed thread

[Ouch Quit It]

Attacking people, even in retaliation, is pointless. It's also pointless to claim "victim". It's pointless to use strawman arguments. A lot of peoples behavior is pointless and non-productive, yet people still do it.

 

People need thicker skins. Damn thin-skins are ruining it for everybody! =)

Im offended by the fact, that you are saying I am offended and my skin is thin. I'll have you know that I have big bones which stretches my skin thin.

[GrinningStudio]

No matter what changes I do to rwgmixer, I can't get any more than 4 sky scrapers to spawn per map, and all the best city/towns are spawn in either Burnt forest or wasteland. I have no agency over the map I play on. None of the settings work. I don't want to waste my time playing if I can't play the way I want to. also, when am I going to be able to name the cities and build the map I want? I'm from Arizona. I'd love to make my own map to include Phoenix, black canyon, prescott, payson and sedona. When will I be able to make the map I want to play on?

 

Also, why can't you use real Arizona county names? Maricopa, Coconino, Yavapai... etc. Why use the none-sense names at all? There are plenty of county, town and city names in Arizona to use... I'd be happy to send you a list of names, if you would use them instead of the non-sense names...

[Guppycur]

Simple Solution:

 

Force snow to be at the north, dessert to be in the south, AND add snow at high elevations, dessert at low elevations, so that it not only makes sense, but also enables BOTH systems... you can have your sure fired way to find a desert and can come across one "randomly".

 

/solving tfp's woes since 1971

[Gareee]

I think if I tear down the reasoning behind why I don't like the widely sporadic biomes, it boils down to the cold/burning issue between a short distance. There, in ours, or in 99% of most fictional worlds, you wouldn't see burning sand and desert beside one another. The North/South thing is a valid thing, but everyone truly wants a spattering of biomes there may be a compromise.

 

Perhaps they could set it so snow doesn't generate beside desert? Treat biome assignment like a "hot spot" generation, where areas are randomly selected for desert, and as you get further away from that area you get green forest areas.. even further from that hot spot you get snowy areas. Then, once the initial areas are selected, disperse random spots of burning/wasteland areas throughout the forest. Depending on the scale of the map, or the procedural rolls of the dice, you could get several hot spots in various sizes that would create a less drastic landscape. See below for quick visualization

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26435[/ATTACH]

 

Anyway, that was you get a more diverse mix without the temperature gripes.

 

 

For comparison, here is one I generated today with the current build:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26436[/ATTACH]

 

I would hope eventually we would see something along these lines, instead of the random scatter approach. Elevation could possibly be used with larger biomes, with lowest points being desert and highest being snow. a second "fake" elevation map could be generated and overlayed to break up the biomes for diversity and to add the water, wasteland and burning land biomes, and then road and city generation could take place.

 

3D environment graphic generators like Vue can do something like this.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Simple Solution:

 

Force snow to be at the north, dessert to be in the south, AND add snow at high elevations, dessert at low elevations, so that it not only makes sense, but also enables BOTH systems... you can have your sure fired way to find a desert and can come across one "randomly".

 

/solving tfp's woes since 1971

 

This would also be an acceptable trade off, mixing both preferences. As I've mentioned, if we didn't start far north or south, I never even saw the snow or desert biomes.. I first really saw the desert two days ago irl, and that ended up being an invisible radiation zone. Fun times.

[unholyjoe]

Thanks, I did not know about that one. I really wish there was some documentation on the map previewer.

 

so do we

[Lonestarcanuck]

As long as TFP applies Fibonacci sequences to a Geometric set of objects based on Fractal math for RWG I will be happy.

 

I spent the morning running around a map and finding a city in the badlands that was desolate and broken and about 1km further a town with a mix of desert and forest and mountains that was peaceful and beautiful.

 

Fix the roads and all will be good!

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

if one of you have a B233 seed with 3+ Trader nearby would be nice if he can write that in the seed thread

 

I think the seed you are looking for is "Snowflake"

[Royal Deluxe]

I think the seed you are looking for is "Snowflake"

 

Thx will check it after the 2 i generate right now

Looks like there is no longer safe that you have 8 traders on a RWG map.

[Kinyajuu]

To those going on about RWG right now, have patience. I work on gameplay systems too so I can't just spend hours upon hours on RWG right now. It's functional, the biome generator is running from xml again, now I need the time to clean it up. It's not a matter of not knowing what to do or what would look best. It never is. It's a matter of having the time to do it.

 

With the way RWG was created this release I'll be able to work on it without breaking worlds that players already have. With that though do realize, if there is a crafting bug, I have to work on it, not RWG. If there is a problem with buffs or effects or animations or progression, I have to work on those, not RWG. See where I'm going here? My time is at a premium and RWG will get it's love, just not right at this exact moment. There are bigger fish to fry than tweaking RWG to "perfection" right now.

 

When it comes to RWG, have faith. I have things in the fire, I just don't have time to finish them up prior to the holidays so I put in what I had ready to go and put the biome stuff back to the old a16 version until I get the new cellular automata (self sorting) biome code in place. Then snow and desert will never touch

and it's output looks very similar to that blobby image above that someone posted (already tested in a test project).

[Hek Harris]

To those going on about RWG right now, have patience. I work on gameplay systems too so I can't just spend hours upon hours on RWG right now. It's functional, the biome generator is running from xml again, now I need the time to clean it up. It's not a matter of not knowing what to do or what would look best. It never is. It's a matter of having the time to do it.

 

With the way RWG was created this release I'll be able to work on it without breaking worlds that players already have. With that though do realize, if there is a crafting bug, I have to work on it, not RWG. If there is a problem with buffs or effects or animations or progression, I have to work on those, not RWG. See where I'm going here? My time is at a premium and RWG will get it's love, just not right at this exact moment. There are bigger fish to fry than tweaking RWG to "perfection" right now.

 

Mozart spoke. Banjo players feel uncomfortable.

 

TFP: Welcome to the TFP kitchen. Today we are going to make French Toast.

I would like to see that...

[cricket504]

I have been ok with A17 being so different from A16, I really did expect to be. But what's now wearing on is the huge swings of things in this experimental with what feels like less and less end goal. Are we looking at a perpetual experimental? RWG just feels like its having little hope of getting functional. Roads don't work (Moses parting the water, vertical climbs and towering mound overpasses.) City's are not generating properly ( Trees inside POI's, missing city POI's & floating POI's ). The ever swinging nerf hammer (food and water consumption, skill point increases, stamina drain.) And the worst, the back to the future A16 RWG biome map. I've gone from excited to try all the new stuff to wondering if a few months break to see if it can get back to functional.

[ArMaReZ]

my future base

 

[Royal Deluxe]

...

Well it costs a few hours to find a nice seed, but thats expectable work if you participate in a alpha

So i see no big urgency

[beerfly]

Roland just send all complaining fellas in the corner, grounded. With noses on the wall. Good move.

 

Thank you Kin ! Take your time.