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Developer Discussions: Alpha 17


Roland

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17  

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  1. 1. Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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Agree to disagree and agree...

I agree with you that IF you play offensive play style zombies should be a constant struggle, Preferably getting smarter with GS.

 

But survival isn't just killing all threats but also avoiding danger and playing smart.

That can be spending the night in a gyro copter, building one of these maze like bases we have sin on this forum, or have ♥♥♥♥ lots of turrets. And then wait till morning breaks and kill off the rest of the horde.

I like digging zombies but i think we should have air quality as the main threat in underground and if you don't manage the zombies that are slowly digging down they will eventually break trough and eat you alive.

 

Air quality as main threat underground? Ok, so you setup your filtration system. Then????????

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It's very easy to test within the game. Don't even need a calculator. Just your max stamina above 100 and get hungry.

 

 

If everything would have worked exactly the way developers meant it to work there would be no bugs.

 

As a proof: I have max stamina of 130 right now and fullness of 94. With linear stamina loss I should have stamina cap @ 124 right? However it's capped at 122. Here is why:

130 * 0.94 = 122.2

 

Ok, but this is still only half the equation. If for example you lose a constant amount of fullness (I assume 1 to make it simple) whenever you expend max stamina once, then the calculation is:

 

With 100 stamina and 100 fullness you would use up 100+99+98= 297 stamina to get to fullness of 97 and max stamina of 97.

 

With 130 max stamina and 100 fullness you would use up 130+128+125= 383 stamina to get to fullness of 97 and max stamina of 117

 

That is, with 130 stamina you have expended about 50% more stamina and your max stamina is still higher.

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One thing I am noticing though is level gating on perks is hampering diverse play styles... for instance, I found all the minibike parts in looting on day one. The minibike building perk is gated behind intellegence, level 6, which is gated behind level 40.

 

I haven't cared either way if level gating is in or not but in this example, e can see that the level and perk gating combined is hampering more diverse gameplay. I should have been able to just unlock the minibike building perk, and after finding a working workbench, just assemble it.

 

Exactly. If you are lucky enough to find/buy all parts of a minibike it should be possible to get it to work aka assemble it. Otherwise finding minibike parts in the world would be practically useless.

 

Either only crafting the parts is gated behind the perk, or the perk can be bought from the start and crafting the parts is gated somewhere else, for example behind steel crafting. But I don't see where the gates for all the vehicles in the game should come from so I really don't see an alternative to the former solution.

 

I think what is making people say that the zombie xp needs to be nerfed is because the xp gain is based on them being tougher in 199. If they are made easier, then the xp probably also needs to be adjusted down for balance, and visa versa if they are made tougher, xp needs to be higher to make the struggle more worth it.

 

No, the simple fact that I as scavenger reached level 13 while the miners/builders in our group were still level 4 (in b199) is the reason zombie xp should be nerfed. Now sure, because of gamestage they also still get easier zombies, but co-op play simply doesn't work well when the scavenger can buy the crafting and mining perks long before the miners/builders.

 

Also the developers have to make a decision. Is it more important to support stealthy scavenging playstyle or a straight fighter (without scavenging) playstyle. But the fighter without scavenging isn't really possible anyway as you need to scavenge for ammunition and food anyway, And zombies should not be a "loot" bring-in service anyway and xp is just another form of loot

 

So at least 75% or more of the xp a scavenger gets must come from looting and not from zombie xp. So a stealthy scavenger doesn't fall too much behind a fighting scavenger. And that goes for other "classes" as well: A player specializing in mining should get 75% or more of his xp from mining. Not from stray zombies hitting his base.

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This is the kind of horde night I'd like to see:

 

 

YES, that's what I want to see too. Of course on Never Run if there will be that many. There becomes a point that if they all run, the base won't survive if there is that many coming at you.

 

 

The shared xp is really nice, but one thing I noticed, my friend that likes to mainly harvest and build, he lvls so much faster than me now. I increased the range to make sure he could be in it mostly so I don't lvl way past him (unless I go way off for a town or something), around 1km. With that shared xp, building, and harvesting, he lvls faster than I do. Only way I can catch up is go outside the range, kill a bit to equal level, then come back. Now I know I can lower the range of shared xp, but then he gets way behind (it was this way in A16.4, so doesn't have anything to do with zombies giving more xp in A17E right now). It'll be a bit rough balancing that out, so I'm waiting till stable to do much messing with the shared xp stuff.

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Air quality as main threat underground? Ok, so you setup your filtration system. Then????????

Or gas mask. Either way I dont see it as a problem.

It's like starving? Set up a farm..then???

Low stamina? Buy perks or build a vehicle...then?

 

You might enjoy an constant struggle but I enjoy to overcome the struggle and then thrive.

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I have really been enjoying Alpha 17. I like the changes to the core progression experience. Definitely needs some balancing to better fit with the pace of the game but it's a solid step forward for sure.

 

Most of what is missing in the game is a reason to stick with it after you have all the perks and gear and built your base but the seeds to solving this are already planted. This is an area where NPC's and quests will fit quite nicely and can scale as you progress. Rather than having an "escort" question, you can have a "protect" quest where you need to keep an NPC survivor alive X days. You could also have quests to deal with an expected zombie herd that comes at you like a blood mood but lasts for X days and goes right through your base area.

 

It would be interesting if weather could be more lethal. A massive sandstorm or blizzard that requires shelter from the elements but also brings with it zombies that are tied to that storm. Zero visibility, extreme hot/cold, and special mutant zombies? What's not to like?

 

Great job so far TFP! Keep holding the hammer!

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It's the stamina breaks that gets to me.

I wounder how mining would feel if they connect the fancy new slow animation to mining, So when stamina is low you hit slower but actually never stop hitting.

 

The mining gets sorted as you level up. At 3/5 sexy saurus and ergonomic grips on my Steel tools i can go on forever.

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Exactly. If you are lucky enough to find/buy all parts of a minibike it should be possible to get it to work aka assemble it. Otherwise finding minibike parts in the world would be practically useless.

 

Either only crafting the parts is gated behind the perk, or the perk can be bought from the start and crafting the parts is gated somewhere else, for example behind steel crafting. But I don't see where the gates for all the vehicles in the game should come from so I really don't see an alternative to the former solution.

 

 

 

No, the simple fact that I as scavenger reached level 13 while the miners/builders in our group were still level 4 (in b199) is the reason zombie xp should be nerfed. Now sure, because of gamestage they also still get easier zombies, but co-op play simply doesn't work well when the scavenger can buy the crafting and mining perks long before the miners/builders.

 

Also the developers have to make a decision. Is it more important to support stealthy scavenging playstyle or a straight fighter (without scavenging) playstyle. But the fighter without scavenging isn't really possible anyway as you need to scavenge for ammunition and food anyway, And zombies should not be a "loot" bring-in service anyway and xp is just another form of loot

 

So at least 75% or more of the xp a scavenger gets must come from looting and not from zombie xp. So a stealthy scavenger doesn't fall too much behind a fighting scavenger. And that goes for other "classes" as well: A player specializing in mining should get 75% or more of his xp from mining. Not from stray zombies hitting his base.

 

I could see the building of a vehicle being lower, but just because I have all the parts doesn't mean I know how to put it together. Give all the pieces to me now, no manual, nothing, and I'll look at you like "wtf do I do?". I still think they'd need to put it say, behind lvl 3 int. It's still lvl 1 (if you do all the starting quests without leveling and put the points into int) and means you have basic knowledge of how putting those together works, even if you don't have the knowledge of how the individual pieces are built. It's kind of one of those back n forth things of how quick do they want it possible to get to "end game" right now.

 

As for the xp, it's kind of all over the place. Increase range of shared xp and they'll be higher than you, then the scavenger gets behind the builders. The only real way to fix it all, is to get rid of shared xp, but then that brings back whoever is best fighter gets the killing xp because they'll kill faster or headshots more. Could fix that by xp from a zombie is based on percent damage done to said zombie with final kill getting 10% bonus xp to xp that would be gained (so even if the person who did least amount of damage gets the kill, they may still not get the most xp from that zombie). There's just a lot that needs to be done and balanced, woohoo, lol.

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Or gas mask. Either way I dont see it as a problem.

It's like starving? Set up a farm..then???

Low stamina? Buy perks or build a vehicle...then?

 

You might enjoy an constant struggle but I enjoy to overcome the struggle and then thrive.

 

You described it as the MAIN threat and then you compare it to building a farm?

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I could see the building of a vehicle being lower, but just because I have all the parts doesn't mean I know how to put it together. Give all the pieces to me now, no manual, nothing, and I'll look at you like "wtf do I do?". I still think they'd need to put it say, behind lvl 3 int. It's still lvl 1 (if you do all the starting quests without leveling and put the points into int) and means you have basic knowledge of how putting those together works, even if you don't have the knowledge of how the individual pieces are built. It's kind of one of those back n forth things of how quick do they want it possible to get to "end game" right now.

 

As for the xp, it's kind of all over the place. Increase range of shared xp and they'll be higher than you, then the scavenger gets behind the builders. The only real way to fix it all, is to get rid of shared xp, but then that brings back whoever is best fighter gets the killing xp because they'll kill faster or headshots more. Could fix that by xp from a zombie is based on percent damage done to said zombie with final kill getting 10% bonus xp to xp that would be gained (so even if the person who did least amount of damage gets the kill, they may still not get the most xp from that zombie). There's just a lot that needs to be done and balanced, woohoo, lol.

 

I don't care about your reality argument at all but find your idea to need INT 3 to assemble the bike a fantastic idea. Double plus good.:encouragement: :encouragement: Makes even a lucky guy pay some price (in perk points). And someone planning ahead could get the idea to keep back perk points if he has just one piece missing.

 

Shared xp is the idea that if you do something (like quests) as a group you share the xp as a group.

It is not a substitute for giving xp to all relevant play styles equally and the way you changed it is ultimately the wrong way. A character that does absolutely nothing but just sit in the base should not get xp any which way.

The right way is to lower xp for zombie kills as much as possible and give out most of the xp for mining/scavenging/building/farming...

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I kind of miss having some skills you build just by doing activities. Practice by repetition with marksmanship, improved mining, stuff like that seemed understandable to progress by doing.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I just wish there were a way to set a battery bank down for stuff, then have a solar panel or two linked to recharge the banks during the day. Or a way to set up an auto-fueling for Generators.

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You described it as the MAIN threat and then you compare it to building a farm?

 

Because I thought you meant. "If it can be overcome it's not a threat"

Starving is a threat building a farm fixed that.

 

More appropriate analogy would maybe be the weather/climate system.

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I don't care about your reality argument at all but find your idea to need INT 3 to assemble the bike a fantastic idea. Double plus good.:encouragement: :encouragement:

 

Shared xp is the idea that if you do something (like quests) as a group you share the xp as a group.

It is not a substitute for giving xp to all relevant play styles equally and the way you changed it is ultimately the wrong way. A character that does absolutely nothing but just sit in the base should not get xp any which way.

The right way is to lower xp for zombie kills as much as possible and give out most of the xp for mining/scavenging/building/farming...

 

Yeah, I know, but really only way to keep people up atm. Lots of things need to be worked on. Shoot, I'd almost say the best way to do it is just everyone gets all xp at all times, haha. Not really, but for me, where I always play with the same people at the same time, it'd be best, but I see the issues and complications of doing that in any other scenario. But I'll just keep waiting to see the next update they do.

 

Most of the complaining and issues I read typically have already been answered by either "yes, we already fixed it" or "no, we're not doing it that way for our game". Very little has actually come back as a "maybe, it's in the talks" (yes, I know there is some of that and some of the yes/no are then put back into that category). Or even if it hasn't been told, they've already answered it to their team, lol.

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It would be interesting if weather could be more lethal. A massive sandstorm or blizzard that requires shelter from the elements but also brings with it zombies that are tied to that storm. Zero visibility, extreme hot/cold, and special mutant zombies? What's not to like?

 

i need ice storms like on hoth. with decreased mobility!

 

 

also i want AT-AT hordes on day 777

 

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I just wish there were a way to set a battery bank down for stuff, then have a solar panel or two linked to recharge the banks during the day. Or a way to set up an auto-fueling for Generators.

 

In over 2000 hours, I've never found a use for either the battery bank or found/ made solar panels.

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Because I thought you meant. "If it can be overcome it's not a threat"

Starving is a threat building a farm fixed that.

 

More appropriate analogy would maybe be the weather/climate system.

 

I was more hung up on you saying air should be the MAIN threat underground. Don't get me wrong, Im not against it, I just think it won't add much. If I have to build a gas mask before going underground so be it. Its not really a MAIN threat in the loosest sense of the word.

 

A horde of zombies trying to eat my face day after day is a main threat. Building a gas mask once and done.. not so much.

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Shoot, I'd almost say the best way to do it is just everyone gets all xp at all times, haha.

 

i still dont know if u get xp for stuff in the forge/workbench, or if u have 2 watch it, or if u get xp at all for crafting, since they re changing it every other alpha. :apathy:

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So, regarding farming and the lack of fertiliser, I take it you still need to till the ground with the hoe before planting crops? I ask mainly because the tilled ground for me is a very ugly low res texture, anyone else getting this or is it just a glitch?

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25989[/ATTACH]

Same here (but once you get your plantations, you don't see the ground anymore). Work in progress ;)

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I was more hung up on you saying air should be the MAIN threat underground. Don't get me wrong, Im not against it, I just think it won't add much. If I have to build a gas mask before going underground so be it. Its not really a MAIN threat in the loosest sense of the word.

 

A horde of zombies trying to eat my face day after day is a main threat. Building a gas mask once and done.. not so much.

 

Fair enough semantics and different views.

 

I dont venture out in the snow or desert biome in early game because I see the climate as the main threat to my health not the zombies. But that's how I see it.

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