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Developer Discussions: Alpha 17


Roland

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17  

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  1. 1. Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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The nasty bugs from yesterday are probably fixed. b207 is being built. Testers will determine where we are at.

 

Good - I was looking for a reason to restart and make use of what I have learned to get a better start going...

 

Couple questions in the meantime. Is the max character level still at 200? Considering it appears it is going to take ~280 skill points to max out on all the skills is there any way to gain additional points? MP is fine if you cannot max out, since various team members can specialize and together you can get anything you need done. But in SP it would be discouraging to be forced to miss out on some things.

 

Second item - it seems that flashlights can no longer be added to guns? Is there going to be a mod part added to replace that?

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Okay ... so ... I agree ... people have valid points. Especially the ones saying we're complaining too much.

 

Now, I do think there's a difference between complaining and dialogue, and trying to find a happy medium.

 

But there's too much "we hate this" and not enough "we love this."

 

So ... what do I love about this current build?

 

1) Trees ... I love the new trees. They are beautiful, and don't appear to be causing lag. I love how varied they are, and how detailed.

 

2) Arrows --- I love retrieving arrows. I love shooting the zombies and having them walk around with an arrow sticking through their eye and out the back of their head. I love shooting them in various places and just laughing my butt off. I'm a mean person, and I'm going to hell, I know. I love retrieving the arrows.

 

3) Chickens ... i love the new look of the chickens.

 

4) hungry zombie ... i love when she dies and humps the ground til she disappears. Yes, I know ... I'm a mean person and going straight to hell. I'll save you a seat.

 

5) loot ... I love the changes to the loot (for the most part ... obviously it still needs a little balance). Mostly what i find are things I need. Unless I need a cookpot, then I can't find one for the life of me. Until I find one, then I find ten. LOL Not the game's fault ... just my luck.

 

6) farming ... So far I love the changes to farming. It makes it a little harder where it counts and easier and less repetitious in other parts. I'm hoping that seed drops will be a little easier, or that wild potato plants will be found.

 

7) armor/clothing ... I think I love the new armor/clothes changes. They're very different, and I'm still adapting, but it makes more sense.

 

8) skill trees ... again, still adjusting, and I hated them the first time i saw them, but now they're growing on me. They're starting to make sense. I think they still need a bit of balancing, but I like where it's headed.

 

9) zombie pathing. Okay ... so this one is a love/hate relationship. I love that they're better at pathing, I really do. But man they scare the beejesus out of me. I love that they will path upstairs ... and find an exit and come after you back on the ground floor.

 

10) all the new decorations... the lamps, the paintings, the new paints, the new floors, the new blocks ... love it.

 

A lot of work went into this ... any time there's a change things are hard. But the changes are, for the most part, good changes. It's an experimental build, so things are not fixed in stone yet. This is a time for testing and balancing ... not for starting an epic ten year stable server. If you don't like the experimental ... you can wait til a17 stable is released. You don't HAVE to play this version, with all the little glitches and witches and buggies.

 

And if this goes like previous ones, a couple three patches down the road it'll be a lot more stable and less twitchy, even before it's a17 stable.

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Good - I was looking for a reason to restart and make use of what I have learned to get a better start going...

 

Couple questions in the meantime. Is the max character level still at 200? Considering it appears it is going to take ~280 skill points to max out on all the skills is there any way to gain additional points? MP is fine if you cannot max out, since various team members can specialize and together you can get anything you need done. But in SP it would be discouraging to be forced to miss out on some things.

 

Second item - it seems that flashlights can no longer be added to guns? Is there going to be a mod part added to replace that?

 

- Max Character level is now 300. So plenty of skill points to distribute :)

 

- There is mod that add a light to guns

 

 

By the way, i love this update. I'm on day 8, level 34 and no death and i'm having a blast.

 

Since i'm in the desert, i get hot often, even with clothes providing a lot of heat resist. Is the temperature status balanced? ( just a minor detail)

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I'm at lvl 30 on my 2nd playthrough and I've only found 2 mod schematics that I couldn't use until I got a forge to craft forged steel. It would be better for early game if weak mods dropped frequently that had low level crafting ingredients. And as you level up the mods get better but the drop rates decrease. This would make the mod system feel more alive and engaging early on, but more rewarding late game.

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The nasty bugs from yesterday are probably fixed. b207 is being built. Testers will determine where we are at.

 

Any idea if there were rwg or other fixes that will require a new game start? I finally unlocked steel and the mini bike yesterday, and just started tinkering with them.

 

Looks like the mini bike like the bicycle no longer has a working headlight, and the new mining helmet isn't bright enough to be used well at night.

 

Btw, we noticed mining helmet oddness last night... se could see the light and its light on the environment on one person, but not from the other two, though they could see the light on thier own screens. Very weird.

 

Thanks again SO much for making AI worth fighting against again!

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I wish they would have kept quality levels in. That way it would be a end game chase to find a 600 level weapon with 5 mod slots.

 

Kinda, but not like this - 600 levels of quality means ~0.17% steps in a 0-100% percent scale of quality which is wayyyyy too much, plus the degrading quality on repairs and numerous too similar quality parts and items was a real PITA. But the current system means:

  1. no progression with higher quality apart from how often you have to repair
  2. no actual incentive to hunt down specific higher quality stuff (esp. the now nonexistent parts)
  3. almost complete decoupling of player level progression from loot progression - only player level/skills is relevant

 

I think this is a step backwards, 7D2D is gravitating towards a very shooter-centric game loop at the moment... :upset: ...with a sprincle of RPG fueled mainly by the aforementioned shooter-centric game loop, but looting/exploring is devalued to uninteresting busywork.

 

My view on an ideal hybrid system would include a simplified quality system, weapon parts/addons and player perks/skills in a balanced way:

  • Use just 10 or (maybe only 5?) quality levels for gun parts that don't degrade on repairs (thus not deminishing your lucky finds and removing the tedious need to replace worn down parts)
  • gun level would be the bracket the average quality of the base parts falls in
  • having less levels means less parts stored and managed (no more 330, 343, 351 and 357 quality items in your gun chest)
  • the level of the gun 'frame' could determine the number of mods that can be installed (or maybe the overall quality of all base parts, not sure about this one)
  • mods add special quirks or stat variations depending on your preferences, but have no quality level
  • the quality level affects the durability as well as the stats (so a level 7 axe is really *better* than a level 2 axe)
  • player skills are around 50% of the formula, which means a player with 100% lumberjack and a ♥♥♥♥ty axe is as good as a noob lumberjack with a perfect axe
  • the same goes for weapons, but maybe the player skills throws in more weight here (because a 9mm is a 9mm, but the player knows where to shoot, maybe 70/30% skills/quality or 60/40% to increase looting incentive)

 

IMHO, this would balance a lot of things out, you still need to loot lots of POIs at level 100+ to get the perfect SMG, but you're able to rock with a semi-adequate SMG if you choose to skill your character this way. Item level would be meaningful again because a better quality item is actually better, and it helps you a lot to have a lucky find at low levels. Out of the numerous hours invested in this game I don't wanna know how much was spent on clicking 4 times on some rock instead of 2 times... :miserable:

 

Much of the game is and always has been tedious work that doesn't add any actual benefit to the experience and just consumes time, such as the degrading quality or numerous clicks hammering a boulder. And that's not completely wrong, because it gives an ingame as well as real world incentive to improve. So any progress from items OR roleplay should serve as something that gives a sense of pride and accomlishment .

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The mod system IS the parts system. I don't see any real difference in terms of gameplay.

 

Purple spring = Faster firing rate.

 

...that kind of thing.

 

Once they finish making the weapon mods, it'll be more noticeable.

 

Once again, why can't this be combined with the gun part system. Why not appeal to both groups, the one who like the gun part system and the one that likes to find fully assembled guns?

 

To do that, make guns much rarer and never prefect. Have them fully assembled (maybe make parts too damaged to use and in need of repair) but still with parts? I mean, I'm not a big fan of having full guns handed to you but this seems like a good mix.

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We are upping that. I think x3.

 

:) Thanks. It was more funny than anything because I restart after every release so losing a bag didn't really mean much but in stable that wouldve sucked. We were in process of moving our base and that bag had every decent weapon and all our scrap iron in it. Lol

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The mod system IS the parts system. I don't see any real difference in terms of gameplay.

 

Purple spring = Faster firing rate.

 

...that kind of thing.

 

Once they finish making the weapon mods, it'll be more noticeable.

 

I think this is exactly most peoples problem. They are reacting like this was Gold release, let alone an experimental of an Alpha. If this was all the mods that would ever be added, sure a lot of the complaints would be valid. I mean it bothers me in my game that the sense of progression feels gone early game but once there are lots of mods to find and play with that will most likely get better. Every time I've gotten annoyed in A17, I've just said to myself, "It's experimental. Have fun and stop worrying." It seems to help because so far I love the game again.

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Once again, why can't this be combined with the gun part system. Why not appeal to both groups, the one who like the gun part system and the one that likes to find fully assembled guns?

 

To do that, make guns much rarer and never prefect. Have them fully assembled (maybe make parts too damaged to use and in need of repair) but still with parts? I mean, I'm not a big fan of having full guns handed to you but this seems like a good mix.

 

ok i am hearing a lot of people complaining about part sistem and here is why i think weapon mods is superior its mostly because weapons should be more about player choice and preference and getting what you want in your gun instead of just chasing the higher quality part to get a bigger number that makes various people play how they want and not force people into the same thing , increases build diversity and strategies , and makes playing the game again cooler because you now have mods you never had last time you played, my opinion is that it should drop more mods and less guns than the rates that are today you can commonly find 5 guns in a medium sized poe loot room i would rather see cool mods for my armor or tools there instead of another pistol

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It is, especially if you get headshots. I'd think because of the power attacks, it's made melee become stronger than guns, though guns will be more effective later on due to being able to attack faster. Madmole stated they will balance it throughout experimental. Personally, I'd hope for more damage, less ammo found.

2 power attacks with sledgehammer to body, and normal zombie dead.

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One thing no one gets in mind is impatience. We`ve been waiting for this release (which is experimental ) a year and a half and now we want to get fast into it and we make so many mistakes playing.

 

All that with so many expectations. I died 18 times on my first savegame till day 7 ingame just because curiousity. I was like a dog in a new dogpark. Most of us are, I dont mean to offend, but prepare you that this is still experimental and the better is yet to come. Cheers :)

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Personally, myself, I like the new system without the gun parts. I mean, seriously, how many of you have gun parts in your home? As for damage, a bullet out of a high quality pistol will do the same damage as one out of a pawn shop special. Now if you want to factor in accuracy, then, yes, a high quality pistol will indeed be more accurate. I think that's where the mods will come in as you can place more mods in higher quality weapons. We just don't have all the mods implemented yet. It's still early days.

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Weapons in General - if you get a level 1 marksman for example there is no way to make that a level 2 or 3, etc.

 

a perk/skill to allow you to be a weapon smith would be nice. allowing me to upgrade it. We do this all the time in Texas.

 

for example, taking my AR and adding a rail kit for CCO etc.

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That takes us back to the "we'll rely on modders to expand upon the idea" argument I had in another thread. Its awesome for us to have this system yes. It will spark some great ideas and mods, but how fair is it to the average player that that is the answer to all of their issues.

 

If the system needs to rely on modders to make it great or expand on it (and it may not it IS still experimental so i have no idea where it will all end up) then the system is fundamentally flawed.

 

The system you are describing could have still been implemented and had with quality remaining as is. Add the mod slots on TOP of the parts and on top of the stats to a level 349 bat lets say. Imagine the possible unique combos if they had done THAT.

 

I absolutely have to agree with you here. The quality system having been dumbed down, and the parts system having been removed in favor of the attachments instead of having the both coexist is really not a good solution. Right now there is no sense of progression in terms of what I can craft. I need to just grind and grind and grind only to end up with a skill point that I cant spend on what I want to spend it on because my level isnt high enough. Which means I have to grind more just to get that level up further. And now they wanna nerf zombie XP so leveling is gonna be even slower.

 

Another workaround for the quality system issues is to just add more quality levels. Having 6 levels in total isnt enough to warrant a reasonable progression. If you want to have finding new stuff feel rewarding and for players to be happy to switch out that one club for this other club that does slightly more damage, you gotta have at least 10 quality levels. Or make the existing ones double digit. So you got 1-9 as faulty, etc.

 

I hope at least we get our FOV slider back. Thats important. Like. Really important.

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If you ask me the game has become nothing but simpler. Far simpler. And to my taste too simple.

 

I feel like the production economics got reduced, the efforts to maintain a good production is reduced, it plays like an action zombie shooter in slow motion but with unreal tournament elements like jumping perks.

 

Progression as is is the easiest way to have progression - bound to nothing but levels, levels bound to almost nothing but zombies (okay its much less effort to level through animals if you find them). The variety in different recipies and crafting queues is lower as i feel. The variety in items is far lower.

 

Honestly, the game is too simple for me right now. It doesn't excite me at all and I'm hoping the next build indicates a direction back to that. But I fear on the way out of alpha - a simple game is what they need right now. And probably a simple game is the easiest way to focus on bugfixing and end this development once and for all.

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I want to find nice goodies as much as the next person, but it should be better and better damage, accuracy, range, silencing, reloading, ammo capacity and aiming type mods, so the slots matter and finding/comparing mods is fun.

 

I havent played enough to find mods yet but assume they have static modifiers associated to them. How about reintroducing the quality system back but only to mods? With this items can have 1000s of variations like borderlands?

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Since i'm in the desert, i get hot often, even with clothes providing a lot of heat resist. Is the temperature status balanced? ( just a minor detail)

It's experimental... but the desert is not intended to be a happyfunplace.

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