Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[trielkee]

As far as I'm concerned, only the seventh day horde should be unavoidable, and by unavoidable I mean there should be no way to cheese it through the seventh day like it is possible in A16. There should always be a sense of danger on horde night.

[Wiset]

this is an interesting idea

i like it

 

This is something I defended back when skill points were added to the game. For me it makes perfect sense because the theme/goal of the game is to survive the zombi apocalypse. So rewarding survival is natural. If a player is clever/skilled/lucky to survive, then give him some skill points.

 

Moreover, every system that reward activities will lead to min/max behaviours : players will "craft stone axe" on day1 (or any other activity that yields the best xp per minute).

[The Gronk]

But some people are asking for zombies to be unavoidable during the other 90% of the game too, and for hiding from them not to ever be an option - and that's what I'm disagreeing with.

 

Since stealth is going to be a thing I don't think you have to worry too much.

 

Speaking of which...

 

If anyone's looking for an excuse to keep turds in the game I can think of a use for them in the stealth mechanic.

 

In many games there is an element to the stealth mechanic where you can distract an enemy with a lure, whether that be throwing rocks, firing arrows, or simply whistling. This breaks the AI from its standard routine and often allows players to create opportunities for themselves for evasion or stealth-kills.

 

A brown-eye-pie could act as a kind of anti-lure, instead of luring AI such as bandits towards the area it makes them avoid that particular area. Guards will stand a few metres away instead of exactly on their post, patrols will take a bit of a detour instead of trampling over it. If too many butt-biscuits are found within a short space of time the AI goes on alert, eventually activating a clean-up protocol to clear the area of fart-lumps and possibly providing the player with more opportunities to out-smart the bandits.

 

Personally I like having bum-fudge in the game, I never touch but avoiding touching it adds a new mechanic for me.

[Aldranon]

Excavation teams are back!

 

As hard as TFP try to make surface threats a threat to near bedrock survivors, it's just not going to happen unless the player just stays in one spot long enough for the zombies to chew through 30-50 meters of stone!

 

Now, if the zombies CAN chew through 30-50 meters of rock in one night, probably destroying 25 rock blocks per meter down that's: 40x25x500hp = about 500,000 damage in one night!

 

THEN WHAT remote chance does a surface fort player have that doesn't cheat up a ton of ammo have against a horde that can do that??

 

Anyone thinking?

 

A person that's not retarded, will be safe underground,

OR everyone will die, above and below,

OR there are unique underground threats or hazards that make being underground challenging and exciting!

 

Hoping for the last one myself.

[The Gronk]

<snipped for space>

 

Unless you keep filling the hole with something harder than stone they'll likely keep attacking the same spot every time, eventually chewing through any amount of rock to get to you.

 

If you have to keep repairing holes made by zombies it then becomes a mechanic, not an exploit.

[Aldranon]

Unless you keep filling the hole with something harder than stone they'll likely keep attacking the same spot every time, eventually chewing through any amount of rock to get to you.

 

So, I should extend my subway tunnel 20 or so meters for next horde night? Now that's a challenge.

 

I think needing oxygen tanks to go below 10 meters (maybe more) would be a step in the right direction. Make going deep down a mid-game event.

[Shiana]

i think the 7day hordes should be changed. they should not attack the user, but try to attack the claimstones of the user (blaim it on the reflections of the redmoon, or something), and only attack the user, if they really sense him/her. Currently you can save-bunker all your tools and items, and then for 7day go to the rooftop of some bigger store, destroy the ladder , and just wait it out.

 

If the 7day hordes (and only those, every other zed should still try to find YOU) would attack the bases, then you really would have a reason to defend your base.

[trielkee]

Now, if the zombies CAN crew through 30-50 meters of rock in one night, probably destroying 25 rock block per meter down that's: 40x25x500hp = about 500,000 damage in one night!

 

THEN WHAT remote chance does a surface fort player have that doesn't cheat up a ton of ammo have against a horde that can do that??

 

 

That's what traps are for. Maybe they're planning on adding a few new ones. Who knows.

[The Gronk]

i think the 7day hordes should be changed. they should not attack the user, but try to attack the claimstones of the user (blaim it on the reflections of the redmoon, or something), and only attack the user, if they really sense him/her. Currently you can save-bunker all your tools and items, and then for 7day go to the rooftop of some bigger store, destroy the ladder , and just wait it out.

 

If the 7day hordes (and only those, every other zed should still try to find YOU) would attack the bases, then you really would have a reason to defend your base.

 

No need for a claimstone at all in SP, in MP you'd just destroy it before the sun goes down or stick it down at bedrock.

[Aldranon]

That's what traps are for. Maybe they're planning on adding a few new ones. Who knows.

 

So maybe the underground player fills in his zombie made holes with spikes...

 

He doesn't just move because he placed his bedroll down and is too lazy to pick it up and move 30 meters in some direction.

[0ldman]

Why a Zombi dog in seconds can destroy a steel door?

 

A dog should be able to dig at most in earth or sand.

[trielkee]

So maybe the underground player fills in his zombie made holes with spikes...

 

He doesn't just move because he placed his bedroll down and is too lazy to pick it up and move 30 meters in some direction.

 

 

Fill the tunnels with TNT, it's more effective .

 

In the case of caveins, falling blocks should definitely do more damage to structures and the player and leave more debris unlike in A16. I always wanted to build a tunnel and blow it up by shooting TNT tacticaly placed on a dirt wall when things get too close, thus blocking the tunnel with dirt and rocks, but you can't do that currently cause of the small amount of debris per destroyed area.

[Aldranon]

Fill the tunnels with TNT, it's more effective .

 

In the case of caveins, falling blocks should definitely do more damage to structures and the player and leave more debris unlike in A16. I always wanted to build a tunnel and blow it up by shooting TNT tacticaly placed on a dirt wall when things get too close, thus blocking the tunnel with dirt and rocks, but you can't do that currently cause of the small amount of debris per destroyed area.

 

Speaking of TNT, I think the last Neebs gaming was a masters work on many levels. Making an instant 5x5 pit to bedrock was one idea I took away from it. The survival of a surface fort just got better with an instant moat around your fortress, you could call it a fortress after that!

 

How many zombies can survive a fall to bedrock?

[kamer1337]

i think the 7day hordes should be changed. they should not attack the user, but try to attack the claimstones of the user (blaim it on the reflections of the redmoon, or something), and only attack the user, if they really sense him/her. Currently you can save-bunker all your tools and items, and then for 7day go to the rooftop of some bigger store, destroy the ladder , and just wait it out.

 

If the 7day hordes (and only those, every other zed should still try to find YOU) would attack the bases, then you really would have a reason to defend your base.

 

zombies are supposed to eat brains not claim stones, it makes no sense at all. what if someone doesnt build a base at all

[DatDamnDutchie]

Why a Zombi dog in seconds can destroy a steel door?

 

A dog should be able to dig at most in earth or sand.

 

With that logic, skin and flesh beating through wood,stone and concrete is just fine?

[Crater Creator]

If I'm into mining or building at the moment then I may ignore a wandering horde. Not sure how I'll feel about it if every wandering horde can go into digging mode and force a fight.

... So I suppose I'm just weighing in that, for some playstyles, being able to build a totally safe base isn't a bad thing at all.

 

But some people are asking for zombies to be unavoidable during the other 90% of the game too, and for hiding from them not to ever be an option - and that's what I'm disagreeing with.

 

No one has ever asked for hiding to never be an option. Please cite a post if you disagree. For some reason, people continue to conflate the zombie's ability to get to you with the zombie's ability to sense you, and assume that a zombie that can do the former in all cases can also do the latter. You can improve the ability of a zombie to make a path from point A to point B without doing anything to their senses, when they become aggravated, existing stealth gameplay, etc. I see nothing wrong with staying quiet and out of sight while a wandering horde rumbles through - not exactly ignoring them, but not being forced to fight either.

 

i think the 7day hordes should be changed. they should not attack the user, but try to attack the claimstones of the user (blaim it on the reflections of the redmoon, or something), and only attack the user, if they really sense him/her. Currently you can save-bunker all your tools and items, and then for 7day go to the rooftop of some bigger store, destroy the ladder , and just wait it out.

 

If the 7day hordes (and only those, every other zed should still try to find YOU) would attack the bases, then you really would have a reason to defend your base.

 

Problem: there is no guarantee the player will have claim blocks in their base, or any claim blocks at all. I can appreciate that attacking a base instead of a player may have advantages. But thanks to the open world sandbox gameplay, it's exceedingly difficult to define what a base is in an objective, non-exploitable way. I see that as one big reason why zombies are geared towards getting players instead of getting player bases.

 

As hard as TFP try to make surface threats a threat to near bedrock survivors, it's just not going to happen unless the player just stays in one spot long enough for the zombies to chew through 30-50 meters of stone!

 

Now, if the zombies CAN chew through 30-50 meters of rock...THEN WHAT remote chance does a surface fort player have?

 

A person will be safe underground, OR everyone will die, above and below, OR there are unique underground threats or hazards that make being underground challenging and exciting!

 

I seem to recall faatal saying that once a zombie starts digging, it has some persistence. It won't start digging horizontally the moment the player moves - it will keep making vertical progress. I would speculate, then, that soon enough it will

1. break through into your hollowed out chamber (where you were when it started digging);
   
2. start navigating your underground subway system (now that it's into the negative space and at roughly your depth); and
   
3. in the process create an air shaft that other zombies looking to path to you would notice and use (since air has a lower path weight than dirt or stone).
   

[0ldman]

With that logic, skin and flesh beating through wood,stone and concrete is just fine?

 

How long you need to produce concrete how fast he is destroyed with bare hands. The mass of the Zombis should be able to destroy an object.

 

I play since ~V 4 with 2289 hours. The gigantic damage(harm) by single Zombis has always annoyed me

[wildaxeman1]

How long you need to produce concrete how fast he is destroyed with bare hands. The mass of the Zombis should be able to destroy an object.

 

I play since ~V 4 with 2289 hours. The gigantic damage(harm) by single Zombis has always annoyed me

 

compare it with your own damage to rock or tree and all falls in place. some things can't be realistic in game. in fact , zombies are not realistic at all. taking that, i'm ok with z-s demolishing concrete walls, as long i can build them at the same rate.

[0ldman]

in fact , zombies are not realistic at all.

 

 

I always thought.....

[meganoth]

If I'm into mining or building at the moment then I may ignore a wandering horde. Not sure how I'll feel about it if every wandering horde can go into digging mode and force a fight.

 

We know already that apart from horde night zombies still have a very limited sensing range in A17. If you are deep enough, you are practically 100% safe.

 

Actually I would prefer if the most you could achieve was 99% safe. Even if you put a base on bedrock there should be at least a 1% chance that a zombie in a wandering horde senses you. Even in your safest base you should have a need for building more than one exit and every say 20 days you should be forced to use that second exit and stealth away or fight them (your choice).

 

And that choice, either stealth away, run away, lure them away or fight them, that is the playstyle you should be able to choose. The wandering horde can't force a fight, but it should be able to force you to notice it and take up two minutes of your time. Even if that only means running away long enough that they loose your scent.

[sillls]

Thanks for the suggestion I’ll try it out. But I’d still prefer a actual spear but a shovel spear is better than nothing I guess.

 

You may find that it will be your best melee weapon due to it's reach and accuracy, especially starting out.

From the simple stone shovel that you can make, right off the bat, to the steel crafted one.

 

I like minded Modder may take care of the appearance for you.

In the mean time, just think of it with a really big spear point.

 

 

Just remember to keep a stone ax handy for getting through doors and stuff.

[lazdeuce]

We know already that apart from horde night zombies still have a very limited sensing range in A17. If you are deep enough, you are practically 100% safe.

 

Actually I would prefer if the most you could achieve was 99% safe. Even if you put a base on bedrock there should be at least a 1% chance that a zombie in a wandering horde senses you. Even in your safest base you should have a need for building more than one exit and every say 20 days you should be forced to use that second exit and stealth away or fight them (your choice).

 

And that choice, either stealth away, run away, lure them away or fight them, that is the playstyle you should be able to choose. The wandering horde can't force a fight, but it should be able to force you to notice it and take up two minutes of your time. Even if that only means running away long enough that they loose your scent.

 

 

Personally I don't like the idea of them sensing you because of a percent chance. There are conditions for them to notice you including sight and sound which makes sense to most people but giving them a 1% chance to sense you just for the hell of it would have the average player scratching their heads.

 

I like the idea of atmospheric hazards creating most of the dangers deep underground (with the exception of bloodmoon hordes). I figure if you're clever enough to make a lot of noise in a shallow base while a wandering horde travels overhead you deserve unwanted visitors.

[Seaside]

With that logic, skin and flesh beating through wood,stone and concrete is just fine?

 

True enough. I would prefer things to be a bit more realistic. Perhaps they can beat a wooden door down, not steel.

However it isn't realistic to be able to make a steel door easily either.

And Zombies aren't exactly realistic.

 

Game would have to be completely reworked to be "realistic" and that ain't happening. So many things would have to change.

I love the game as it is, not being realistic adds it's own type of fun.

 

Maybe some day someone will make a true Large open world zombie game that tries to stay as close to reality as possible (Other than the zombie part). A "28 days or World war z " type game. Just as an alternative when I'm in the mood for realistic survival.

[gav_328t]

True enough. I would prefer things to be a bit more realistic. Perhaps they can beat a wooden door down, not steel.

However it isn't realistic to be able to make a steel door easily either.

And Zombies aren't exactly realistic.

 

Game would have to be completely reworked to be "realistic" and that ain't happening. So many things would have to change.

I love the game as it is, not being realistic adds it's own type of fun.

 

Maybe some day someone will make a true Large open world zombie game that tries to stay as close to reality as possible (Other than the zombie part). A "28 days or World war z " type game. Just as an alternative when I'm in the mood for realistic survival.

 

 

I don’t see that a game that is ‘that’ realistic would even be a game. If they can’t get through a steel door for instance, you’d just build a reinforced concrete wall house with steel doors, and you’re safe. There’s no danger to that. The only requirement would be to fight your way out to go and loot for food.

[Aldranon]

I seem to recall faatal saying that once a zombie starts digging, it has some persistence. It won't start digging horizontally the moment the player moves - it will keep making vertical progress. I would speculate, then, that soon enough it will

1. break through into your hollowed out chamber (where you were when it started digging);
   
2. start navigating your underground subway system (now that it's into the negative space and at roughly your depth); and
   
3. in the process create an air shaft that other zombies looking to path to you would notice and use (since air has a lower path weight than dirt or stone).
   

 

You can think that. I was starting to feel bad that I might have ruined someones plans to do just what I said. Nope, nothing to see here, my bad!