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Developer Discussions: Alpha 17


Roland

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17  

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  1. 1. Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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So after watching the last Joels videos about perks I was a bit sad, let me explain.

 

Currently in A16.4 you get better, the more you do with certain items, pistols, shotguns, shovels, picks etc and you level up a perk the more you use an item. Will we still be able to mod that feature back in A17 with the new perk framework so that using an item will give experience to a perk and level it up without spending points in the perk like it's in A16 and get better at using them? I love this feature in A16.4 and personally will miss it greatly from A17, but it is what it is.

 

Also will it still be possible to mod in a feature from A16.4, that by reading a book/schematic you learn a perk?

 

 

Thanks!

 

Just in case that question gets lost, Sub asked a very important question for all modders. Most of the mods now are built on a foundation of extending the need to USE items. Being able to have a mixture of A16's ways of action XP and the perks from 17 would greatly open a door for an amazing combination of both systems, making the sky the limit for modding. Is this still achievable in the current setup? And is schematic learning a completely yanked out and dead issue or can you still technically create a book from which you can learn?

 

The answer to this I think is very important to us modders and what plans we have for the future.

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Whew, finally downed the ketchup.

 

Whats wrong with a good old fashioned well placed shot? You can't shoot a gun while driving a vehicle so its not like that guy in the sky is causing problems for anyone.

 

To be fair, a flying target is harder to hit than one constrained to moving over land. It's an advantage that should be accounted for when balancing them.

 

After giving it some thought I've removed XP bonus from INT. You can craft faster and higher quality items with more INT. There will still be consumables that give you a short duration XP boost, but we don't want min maxer delight.

 

This change serves as a testament to both your willingness to consider people's feedback, and to the healthy state of the game where you can make a change like that from one day to the next. :hail:

 

Zombies have a chance to drop loot, but honestly the game is playing fine without meals on wheels bringing you all the junk and food you'll ever need. Now when they drop its something probably pretty good. Now I NEED stuff and have to get off my ass and go get it, which is great for game play. Food is an issue early game now and the more energy I expend the more food I need. Before I could get plenty of canned food from zombies from the fat ones and soccer mom zombie.

 

I must point out that soccer moms and other female zombies dropping canned food was a long-standing bug in the xml, where they pulled from the fat zombie loot list instead of the generic zombie loot list.

 

I'm pretty sure passengers are pushed back to a18.

 

For my two cents, passengers are the 'killer feature' for the 4x4 that would make it more than just a minibike with (presumably) better stats and different art.

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Jax

I think Tin was posting something about that in an abstract manner earlier. To provide a tangible mode for legacy schematics, and I posted a possible addendum, To have the readable content Randomly generated, only in crack'a'books and libraries, to keep them as a viable part of the story lore. Don't know if this helps but hope so.

 

THe one thing i recently thought of for blending perks, from old and new is, instead of a singular point value, Exp is still grants greater skill to the buy in point of a perk. if you have 5 levels, and 100 is the complete increase, using the perk wuld slowly build up to the 20 point increment, which then unlocks the ability to buy the next tier, which inturn allows you to build damage or skill percentage to the next 20.

 

The major difference from the preview is if fighting you will still do progressive damage, instead of a fixed value until enough kills achieved. This would offer flexibility to the players, some may be able to run well at a 39% increase or 29%, the previewed way may be seen as too stringent or restrictive, do 0 extra damage for this time period, do 20 extra during this time period after purchase and so on. The way I posted allows for making the max if thats your play, or getting to a comfortable level to be upgraded later if desired, with the new balancing of the perks and skill trees, I personally see me trying them out. Prior I killed often as possible, and put my points in two thing scavenging and quality joe. Then i would scavenge houses, pois etc.

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The armor perks make any armor you wear more effective. Imagine it as you know how to move just right so a blow glances off you instead of sinking into your flesh.

 

Stated that way i see it differently, I originally had idea only of a severly damaged low yield armor suit, suddenly being repaired by buying perk. The way you stated it makes sense to me now. thanks

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I smell some #Gate forming so I'll just say: Options.

 

TFP can have an extensive list of options and group them to 3 or 4 presets: Easy, Normal, Hard and... "Die you toilet looting scum!" :)

 

Also allow the player to modified individual options, so, no one could possibly complain, right?

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I disagree 100 percent. And so does everyone else. We ALL have a different idea of how long things should last. So there is no right answer here. They have to pick a happy medium. Anything more than its going to have to require modding because if you win and it takes 30 minutes to get a point Ill be mad as hell, of they win and it takes 5 hours you will be mad as hell. SOMEONE will be mad as hell either way right?

 

Of all people I'd have thought you'd get the concept of non-linear progression. It could take both 30 mins _or_ 5 hours, depending on your current level.

 

Raising levels quicker for new characters gives them a chance to reach a reasonable skill level in a reasonable amount of time whereas slowing progression for established characters prevents them from becoming uber-powerful Gods striding across the server too quickly.

 

Finding the right parabola of xp requirements to make development smooth and fulfilling is going to be the hard part.

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Finding the right parabola of xp requirements to make development smooth and fulfilling is going to be the hard part.

 

This is the part where we can be in help for the pimps. When experimental is released I bet there will be rebalancing and big debates on XP and ballance at all, so we must be ready not only to play, but to give proper feedback.

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Most of the mods now are built on a foundation of extending the need to USE items.

1. Making the game an asia-MMO grindfest is not on the feature list and I won't even look if that is still supported in code.

2. Anything that has a trigger can count up a variable and you can define something like "landing after a jump while holding raw meat and having more than 73% stamina and a sprained ankle" as your skill gain event that eventually unlocks whatever you want either automatically or by making a perk level available for purchase.

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I smell some #Gate forming so I'll just say: Options.

TFP can have an extensive list of options and group them to 3 or 4 presets: Easy, Normal, Hard and... "Die you toilet looting scum!" :)

Also allow the player to modified individual options, so, no one could possibly complain, right?

 

Using modified individual options has gotten a lot easier.

A single line can now increase the damage you do to zombies with every weapon... or only with melee weapons... where previously you had to mod every individual weapon and do that all over again with every game update.

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Of all people I'd have thought you'd get the concept of non-linear progression. It could take both 30 mins _or_ 5 hours, depending on your current level.

 

Raising levels quicker for new characters gives them a chance to reach a reasonable skill level in a reasonable amount of time whereas slowing progression for established characters prevents them from becoming uber-powerful Gods striding across the server too quickly.

 

Finding the right parabola of xp requirements to make development smooth and fulfilling is going to be the hard part.

 

The issue people forget is the amount of point that are available vs the major nerving that has going on.

 

Currently you need close to 20 points simply to get several abilities you had before in A16-- back. Carry capacity level 2, head shots level 3, ... As we have seen with Joel in the Strength video, he was hitting even a soft zombie a dozen times because the lack of head shot damage. Anybody who has played 7D2D knows how much of a damage sponge zombie are without headshot.

 

So that means you are already investing 9 points simply in headshot perks when you start the game! Let alone the equivalent in pummel pet etc that people used to take.

 

So they replaced spam crafting ( what was easy to fix ) now with perk spamming because people will simply be forced to try and perk up as much as possible to even have a viable playing character that does not need to avoid every Z that even sneezes at the player. We also have seen how much more Zombies get hits in ( backstep reduced ) on the player.

 

A quick calculation shows that if we average 50 points over 7 days with 3 hours ( Joel his stats ). That means you do 2.3 points per hour. Lets assume you do 4 points at the start and you have a diminishing return on every hour after that. ( 4, 3.9, 3.8, ... ). After this ... You just spend 5 to 7 hours simply perk spamming to get your character to a level it was before in A16. Painful ...

 

People also overlook the hit you get when you die. It reduces the SPECIAL level by one. So your character can be reduced in damage output, stamina, run speed, carry capacity, head shot damage etc ... Because everything now is tied into these perks. Making dead extreme punishing, especially if you end up spawning outside a base or when your character is new. Naked with everything reduced, potentially even head shots.

 

I can work around that but you try telling that to new players, who never played 7D2D like the veterans. I feel a lot of people will give up in frustration. Complex crafting etc people can deal with but if one thing triggers people, is dying and feeling like a cripple. The old system was less punishing on this part.

 

It does not take balancing after release when the flaws in the system are even now visible. Frustration from lack of damage, potential heavy punishment ( even more impact on beginning characters ), AI more aggressive, Zombies able to put a lot of hits, step-over headshot is weakened ( head shot perk + Zombie do not lie down anymore + Zombie can attack when on the floor), Lack of Stun on Zombies.

 

Yes, the game will be harder for veterans but for new players it will be hell on earth and i see people easily quieting.

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Can you make it to fall off, I mean if someone risk flying to protect or something they should be aware of fall damage, maybe it doesn't break gyro but it should hurt player.

 

Glide is probably a bit of a gentle word for the process of landing a gyrocopter without forward thrust.

 

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2012/05/helicopters-wont-just-fall-like-a-rock-if-the-engine-dies-they-usually-can-be-landed-safely-this-way/

 

You've got to keep the top rotor pointed slightly forward to keep you heading in that direction, if there's no air flowing over the top rotor you fall like a stone. An autogyro's steering is also entirely dependent on forward momentum, not enough speed and you start spinning in the opposite direction to top rotor. All of this while heading towards the ground at just under terminal vertical velocity because if you've got too much forward momentum when you finally hit you'll end up going beyond the end of the runway and eventually pull up at a motorway service station just outside of Surrey.

 

Not sure how many of those mechanics will be in the final game but in real life it's a little more complicated than "glide" :-)

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<snipped for space>

 

MadMole has already stated that a base headshot bonus is going back with the perk giving a bonus to the bonus.

 

Level cap isn't set in stone and may be removed or adjusted.

 

Everything else from spam-crafting to the punishment for death is matter of balancing, not because the system is fundamentally flawed. The system is simple which strangely enough makes balancing that much harder but it's a system widely used by RPG's not a completely new concept thought up over a bong and a bagel.

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Of all people I'd have thought you'd get the concept of non-linear progression. It could take both 30 mins _or_ 5 hours, depending on your current level.

 

Raising levels quicker for new characters gives them a chance to reach a reasonable skill level in a reasonable amount of time whereas slowing progression for established characters prevents them from becoming uber-powerful Gods striding across the server too quickly.

 

Finding the right parabola of xp requirements to make development smooth and fulfilling is going to be the hard part.

 

I do agree (somewhat) with what you are saying but you have to remember that I'm probably the biggest champion of slowing down the beginning stages of the game. I wouldn't want new players going through the first quarter of the game quickly simply because I'm a firm believer in stopping and smelling the roses. My greatest joy comes from the struggle the first few days offer.

 

You are definitely on to something but my point was when you ask 20 people what a reasonable time frame is you may get 10 different answers. That is going to be the hard part and one where you will get the most variation of answers depending on what a player enjoys.

 

For me any game where I am over level 30 by day 21 was a game where id restart and go again until I finally just adjusted things the way I wanted them. For the vanilla experience, that's a tough one to pin down, especially when there is (currently) little to no end game goals to work for.

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The issue people forget is the amount of point that are available vs the major nerving that has going on.

 

Currently you need close to 20 points simply to get several abilities you had before in A16-- back. Carry capacity level 2, head shots level 3, ... As we have seen with Joel in the Strength video, he was hitting even a soft zombie a dozen times because the lack of head shot damage. Anybody who has played 7D2D knows how much of a damage sponge zombie are without headshot.

 

So that means you are already investing 9 points simply in headshot perks when you start the game! Let alone the equivalent in pummel pet etc that people used to take.

 

So they replaced spam crafting ( what was easy to fix ) now with perk spamming because people will simply be forced to try and perk up as much as possible to even have a viable playing character that does not need to avoid every Z that even sneezes at the player. We also have seen how much more Zombies get hits in ( backstep reduced ) on the player.

 

A quick calculation shows that if we average 50 points over 7 days with 3 hours ( Joel his stats ). That means you do 2.3 points per hour. Lets assume you do 4 points at the start and you have a diminishing return on every hour after that. ( 4, 3.9, 3.8, ... ). After this ... You just spend 5 to 7 hours simply perk spamming to get your character to a level it was before in A16. Painful ...

 

People also overlook the hit you get when you die. It reduces the SPECIAL level by one. So your character can be reduced in damage output, stamina, run speed, carry capacity, head shot damage etc ... Because everything now is tied into these perks. Making dead extreme punishing, especially if you end up spawning outside a base or when your character is new. Naked with everything reduced, potentially even head shots.

 

I can work around that but you try telling that to new players, who never played 7D2D like the veterans. I feel a lot of people will give up in frustration. Complex crafting etc people can deal with but if one thing triggers people, is dying and feeling like a cripple. The old system was less punishing on this part.

 

It does not take balancing after release when the flaws in the system are even now visible. Frustration from lack of damage, potential heavy punishment ( even more impact on beginning characters ), AI more aggressive, Zombies able to put a lot of hits, step-over headshot is weakened ( head shot perk + Zombie do not lie down anymore + Zombie can attack when on the floor), Lack of Stun on Zombies.

 

Yes, the game will be harder for veterans but for new players it will be hell on earth and i see people easily quieting.

 

I don't see any flaw but then again I'm not a min/maxer who needs level 5 in everything. The whole point of there being a limit is to discourage a God Like character, because those are simply no fun. Lord knows I have dealt with those types of players in my mod and at some point you have to ignore them as they play on a wholly different level and do not represent the majority of players.

 

The things you are claiming we NEED to put points in right at the start i have zero interest in. Headshot Bonus? Meh, I'm a melee/bow combo so I don't NEED headshots. I also don't stuff my backpacks to the brim so I can definitely manage my bag without putting any points in encumbrance. I don't see ANY urgency at all to predestine yourself to one specific build.

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