Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[DaVegaNL]

Wikipedia. The reference tool that can be modified and edited by just about any person in the world, at any time, and is moderated by other random people in the world.

 

Not exactly what you would call a factual reference. Not to mention that Wikipedia is banned from use in most schools as reference material.

 

Yeah, Wikipedia itself is a poor source. The sources used and quoted in a Wikipedia article are fine though.

[ItsHORDEnotHOARD]

I think the main point khaine is trying to make is why are they completely changing core gameplay systems when the game is going gold in less then 15 months according to madmole. Early alpha changes made sense but when it’s so close to being done seems strange to be changing the whole way the game plays so close to full release. Could be wrong but that’s kind of what I’ve taken out of what he’s said last few pages.

 

I think this logic is backwards.

The way I understand it is that they will be close to gold thanks to all the changes they are making now.

[Death2gnomes]

I have no problem with negative responses. Life would be boring if everyone agreed with you. I do have a problem with people being outright rude, sarcastic or making assumptions to cast folks in a negative light (the last one I know I'm bad with and trying to improve... basically adopting a "think before I post" mentality), and that's happening a lot of late.

 

Also, I didn't realise the US teaching system was getting that bad with the use of language/words/terminology/etc. I've got a friend who works in the UK teaching system and she's been saying basically the same thing. They're constantly getting new guidance on what words to use/not use and even she said it's just getting silly now... this is a woman in her 20's as well so there's no reason for her to be as jaded as those of us WAY in our 30's and beyond.

 

You do raise an interesting point regarding placeholder systems though. We don't always know what is and isn't a placeholder system in the game. I was pretty sure that the Wellness and Skill systems were solidified, as an example, but I knew the vehicle system was going to get overhauled due to all of the issues with bikes randomly disappearing into the ground. I believe that has been a particular bugbear for the dev team to sort out.

 

If at all possible, it might be handy to know what is basically going to stay (aside from tweaks) and what is currently a placeholder once the latest build is out for folks to play with. That way we know what parts the devs might want feedback on (placeholder systems are a good place to gather feedback if wanted) and what parts need outright bug reports for fixing things.

 

its the age of being politically correct. where every kids get a trophy sometimes the same as the winners/winning team. A real carebear society, when accusations can ruin ones life if you dont conform, so Teachers lose their jobs.

[corvette81]

Wait what? How would a perk make your gun shoot faster? That makes no sense.

 

[ignem]

i'm so excited to play the A17 ENTIRELY in VR with my nVidia 2080 !!!

[Death2gnomes]

Wait what? How would a perk make your gun shoot faster? That makes no sense.

 

 

easy. assume theory, slides are better, higher grade springs, better recoil management any number of combinations of "little things.

[corvette81]

easy. assume theory, slides are better, higher grade springs, better recoil management any number of combinations of "little things.

 

but those would better be done using the mod system

[Noidnel]

Wait what? How would a perk make your gun shoot faster? That makes no sense.

 

 

It makes more sense to get a reduction on weapon recoil instead IMO.

 

UPDATE:

easy. assume theory, slides are better, higher grade springs, better recoil management any number of combinations of "little things.

 

Ok, that makes sense.

[beerfly]

but those would better be done using the mod system

 

Mods are different than perks. Perks evolve by gaining experience, mod system will be addons to weapons, parts, stuff, who knows what more. At least thats how I can tell it at 4AM.

[Jiles111]

 

Not exactly what you would call a factual reference. Not to mention that Wikipedia is banned from use in most schools as reference material.

 

“The Gubberment don’t want skrewls to teach the truth”

[KingSlayerGM]

It may seem that way to you because you are not an employee of the company and so do not have access to the internal roadmap for the game. They plan like any company plans. Create a roadmap and hold planning meetings where they adjust, refine, and, yes, sometimes cut. I read the proposals for many of these systems back in 2017 but was not at liberty to discuss them with those who are not employees of the company. I don't think there is anything extraordinary about that, honestly.

 

Roland, I understand what you are saying.

 

However sometimes what we perceive is very different from the situation that you describe.

 

TFP sometimes do things that may appear to some as if they are unprofessional, or not very careful with their design process.

 

Things like:

• Announcing features for a specific alpha that later are postponed
  
• Talk about features in a way that makes you think they are official but then they are dropped
  
• Implement things that later are discarded
  
• Implement things that later are completely redesigned
  

 

Even considering that during development some trial and error may occur, this might seem a bit to much for some.

 

Furthermore "not giving dates" may seem like a symptom of inability to make accurate estimates on your work, or, even worse, a symptom of not having a detailed plan for your work.

[0ldman]

@KhaineGB : do you have a dull office job?

[Gnomaana]

Again, as stated SEVERAL times now, I bring it up because people love to use "but it's alpha" as a reason when things get changed despite the fact that's not typically what Alpha is.

 

That is used because it's the norm for Steam Early Access titles.

 

So no. No I don't think it's too late. I would actually love it if they changed the build revision from "Alpha 17" to "Early Access - v17" or something similar. When it goes to beta, it could be "Early Access - Beta v1."

 

Why? Why are you fixated on the term Alpha? I don't care if they call it 7 Days to Die Opossum 17 or hell call it Super Gold Platinum Pre-Beta-Alpha Zulu 118.987. As long as they keep giving me a free update to the game from time to time I'll be a happy little zombie killer.

[Catt]

@gazz you play eq? Me too! Cadira on xegony, hmu!

[KhaineGB]

@KhaineGB : do you have a dull office job?

 

Sort of. I work from home, but why is that relevant?

 

Why? Why are you fixated on the term Alpha? I don't care if they call it 7 Days to Die Opossum 17 or hell call it Super Gold Platinum Pre-Beta-Alpha Zulu 118.987. As long as they keep giving me a free update to the game from time to time I'll be a happy little zombie killer.

 

Because people like to throw it around as the "reason" for massive system changes within the game being acceptable, even though that's not GENERALLY what the Alpha stage of game development is for. That's what Pre-Alpha is for.

 

I'm pretty sure I've already explained that several times in previous posts though. So I think I'm done for now.

[Gnomaana]

My 'problem' (it's not really), is that 'It's Alpha' is often used to counter-argue the question/demand for optimization. And by forgoing the classic, rigid, definition of Alpha-Beta-Gold, which occurs when adding features post-launch/post-optimization, one forgoes the 'It's Alpha' argument as well. Fine by me that features will be added during Beta/Gold/whatever you want to call it, no problem at all. But the 'It's Alpha and therefore optimization will come probably later'-argument will not hold if the classic structure is not followed.

 

Why not? Why would you waste time optimizing code you may rip out and replace? Dev time costs money and companies that waste time working on code that will get ripped out later are the companies you read about closing down. Optimization is just not an Alpha priority. They probably do a bit BUT until a system is pretty much guaranteed to be finalized it's just a waste of man hours. Sorry that fact seems to upset you so much but reality is reality.

[lesipher]

Why? Why are you fixated on the term Alpha? I don't care if they call it 7 Days to Die Opossum 17 or hell call it Super Gold Platinum Pre-Beta-Alpha Zulu 118.987. As long as they keep giving me a free update to the game from time to time I'll be a happy little zombie killer.

 

I share this sentiment.

[Aldranon]

Its interesting how people think differently.

 

"In the box people":

Some people take everything literally and everything must be done a certain way.

I'm glad for these people because you want people like this at nuclear power plants and missile silos. Everyone else, get the hell out.

 

"Out of box people":

The world needs these people too. Artists, writers, theorists and innovators. The world would suck without these people.

 

"The hybrid people":

They have some of both. Programmers, good generals, research scientists. Interesting people for sure.

 

I said all that because everyone in this forum fits one of these types. Why don't we show a little mercy to people who don't think the same way.

[meganoth]

That's literally a quote from Wikipedia, so don't shoot the messenger.

 

Yes, it probably needs to be re-written. Yes, it's probably out of date (especially regarding time frames), however the logical progression of pre-alpha -> alpha -> beta -> whatever does appear to be verified by other folks in other forums and discussion threads. Some of the steps in-between are up for debate, but those are largely accepted as "correct."

 

As stated earlier, it's only Steam Early Access that has muddied the waters.

 

On "Alpha": We seem to agree that EA games don't conform to the wikipedia definition of development or what your friends in the bussiness tell you. But I would bet you a good sum of money that many other independent developers don't operate with that old model and vertical slices and complete development at the drawing board either.

 

I remember that when TFP changed many skills to perks for A16 they said this is a change that would continue in A17, that there would be much more perks. For me the perk system now looks like a continuation of what they started then, away from learning-by-doing and going into the classic RPG direction (also with the attributes).

 

Did they plan this from the start? Don't think so, they tried learning-by-doing and didn't like it, so they reduced it in A16 and (maybe) removed it from vanilla now. It is also easy to see that mods should still be able to add l-b-d again (as buffs can change character values).

 

I don't remember MM saying in A16 that it is beta, by the way. I remember in the middle of A17 development that he said something like "This is (like) a beta" and that was a surprise to me. And he never said what he meant exactly, except that (Roland I think) explained that TFP doesn't really stick to terms like "beta" as rules. It is obvious he doesn't read from a carefully rehearsed script and may say things that can be dissected and later used against him. I like that more than carefully worded statements from the marketing department and take some confusion as neccessary evil.

[meganoth]

Why not? Why would you waste time optimizing code you may rip out and replace? Dev time costs money and companies that waste time working on code that will get ripped out later are the companies you read about closing down. Optimization is just not an Alpha priority. They probably do a bit BUT until a system is pretty much guaranteed to be finalized it's just a waste of man hours. Sorry that fact seems to upset you so much but reality is reality.

 

This was not KhaineGBs point. We argue over a word that used to mean something different (if he is right). Lets stick to discussing the facts instead of using words like "upset", your first reply to him was at least as "upset" as his. I remember because it is a bit unusual for you to come on so strong.

[Cazmyr]

Yes. And whatever you can climb, so will zombies; meaning that breaking the bottom ladder trick isn't safe anymore... They will follow!

 

0.o really?

 

I mean I love it but.....0.o really?

 

I totally use that trick. And I love that I can't do it anymore.

 

I hope they are able to negotiate Toothy and Pillar Bases as we are as well.

[Xtrakicking]

0.o really?

 

I mean I love it but.....0.o really?

 

I totally use that trick. And I love that I can't do it anymore.

 

I hope they are able to negotiate Toothy and Pillar Bases as we are as well.

 

1. Break the 2 last ladder blocks.

 

2. Place hay bale, hop on top, then jump and place another hay bale.

 

3. Hold on to ladder, then pick up hay bales.

 

4. ???

 

5. Profit!

[SylenThunder]

On "Alpha": We seem to agree that EA games don't conform to the wikipedia definition of development or what your friends in the bussiness tell you. But I would bet you a good sum of money that many other independent developers don't operate with that old model and vertical slices and complete development at the drawing board either.

 

I remember that when TFP changed many skills to perks for A16 they said this is a change that would continue in A17, that there would be much more perks. For me the perk system now looks like a continuation of what they started then, away from learning-by-doing and going into the classic RPG direction (also with the attributes).

 

Did they plan this from the start? Don't think so, they tried learning-by-doing and didn't like it, so they reduced it in A16 and (maybe) removed it from vanilla now. It is also easy to see that mods should still be able to add l-b-d again (as buffs can change character values).

 

I don't remember MM saying in A16 that it is beta, by the way. I remember in the middle of A17 development that he said something like "This is (like) a beta" and that was a surprise to me. And he never said what he meant exactly, except that (Roland I think) explained that TFP doesn't really stick to terms like "beta" as rules. It is obvious he doesn't read from a carefully rehearsed script and may say things that can be dissected and later used against him. I like that more than carefully worded statements from the marketing department and take some confusion as neccessary evil.

Here's a chart yall.

 

[Xandyr78]

This was not KhaineGBs point. We argue over a word that used to mean something different (if he is right). Lets stick to discussing the facts instead of using words like "upset", your first reply to him was at least as "upset" as his. I remember because it is a bit unusual for you to come on so strong.

 

Your point is probably still valid, Meganoth, but Gnomaana was replying to a comment by DaVegaNL, not KhaineGB, if I remember correctly.

[Cazmyr]

1. Break the 2 last ladder blocks.

 

2. Place hay bale, hop on top, then jump and place another hay bale.

 

3. Hold on to ladder, then pick up hay bales.

 

4. ???

 

5. Profit!

 

That is certainly true.

 

I mostly only use this method while I am in a PoI for the first few horde nights until I build my base. Then I use an underground tunnel. With them digging now that could change as well, but I still think it is a good idea to avoid using doors. They are still a weak point and something zombies will go after.

 

So we will see what all the changes do to my base design, but I am looking forward to that and seeing how it turns out. Very exciting time to be a 7D2D fan!