Jump to content

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17


Developer Discussions: Alpha 17  

1 member has voted

  1. 1. Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

    • Newly Updated
      1
    • Check out the newest reveals by Madmole
      0
    • Over 100 new perk books with set collecting and bonuses
      0


Recommended Posts

That would actually be really cool.

 

Lol yes, I have been pulling for it for myself because, dammit, I want underwear slots and the ability to change underwear is the last slice of civilization we have to us in an apocalypse, think of it as being similar to being able to travel the width and breadth of the Galaxy, hitchhiking and still knowing where your towel is. That's a frood who really has their act together! :)

Link to post
Share on other sites
Lol yes, I have been pulling for it for myself because, dammit, I want underwear slots and the ability to change underwear is the last slice of civilization we have to us in an apocalypse, think of it as being similar to being able to travel the width and breadth of the Galaxy, hitchhiking and still knowing where your towel is. That's a frood who really has their act together! :)

Hahaha absolutely. I would totally collect underwear and run around killing zombies... should be able to make our own too - paint it and draw on it. Make our own art.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Call it whatever you like. Pre-Alpha or Alpha or Indev or whatever. The stage in which we are participating is one in which these developers like to experiment and develop by degrees. The wellness system was something they experimented with and ultimately rejected. All of these changes would have been done behind closed doors a couple of decades ago and none of us would have been able to experience the changes at all. All we would have been able to do would be to have read a small blurb in PC Gamer about a reporter's experience visiting The Fun Pimp's studio and trying the game out for an hour and then an expected release date for the game.

 

If you want to go traditionalist then from 2013-2019 there would be nothing for us. Then in 2019 the full version would come out and that would be all we ever knew. We would have had no clue about:

 

Minimaps

Clay Molds

Grid-based Crafting

Spam Crafting

Horde Mode

Extensive Cave Systems

Wellness

The Sheer cliffs of Alpha 10

The Grass biome

The maple forest biome

Limitless maps

Hub cities

Giant Hornets

Playing the game without XP or Quality tiers

Farming underground

Blocky terrain

Multiple Respawn Points

Navezgane as the only map option

Gore Blocks

1x1 Ingress

2 block jumping

Smelly Food

No crafting or looting timers

No block upgrading

 

 

We got to play the game in many different ways and have those memories because we are a part of this development process that is open to early access. Any creative work is going to have rewrites and cuts. It is the same whether it is video games, movies, books, whatever. Those who can roll with the ups and downs of the development process will have an amazing ride. Those who can't are going to hate it. So it doesn't matter what you call it, what matters is whether you can enjoy it for what it is and keep fond memories of how the game used to be that you got to experience and future customers of the finished game will never know about.

 

I frankly have no problem with change/removal/addition of features, even as small as changing button text or colour. My problem is Madmole share and said is working on Attribute system with team now. I am not going back to 2013, but how exactly you guys plan for A17, When you guys wake up one fine morning in 2017, did you just ask developer to go to computer and write something useful. And if it looks good then we start planning on it and start coding on it?

 

Why Funpimps (as they clearly want and use user feedback, I see you and Faatal discuss and act on this very forum thread suggestion) didn't show that Attribute chart 15-16 months ago and take feedback from your experience players. Ask them if this option is good or that. Why it is Exactly a year ago on 5th oct 2017, Madmole show us Bicycle from Game in play screenshot.. And here we are discuss the attribute system which directly effect how much energy will use to paddle a bicycle. Sorry like anyother frustrated fan, I use some hard language. But I totally get the long time it take, I totally get you guys are experimenting and trying good stuffs. But I see your team doesn't have Define focus on task in hand. Fun pimp team is try to make a cake, if it baked well we serve it, else we try again. Team is not planning, not making deadline for themselves to achieve.

 

For home grown game it is okay, but for professional companies it hurt your long term goals. you guys have skills and amazing skills, but your approach to problem is questionable. I would invest in your game as FAN (and I already did), as I know every year or so I get a new game, but as investor I will never invest in Fun Pimps (provided I got that much money :p). I love your game, your passion for development. But your team really need a Direction and need to learn to stick to deadline. Don't push developer or designer for unrealistic deadline, if it take 2 yrs so be it, but plan, think, replan and then start coding. Don't code and see if it works then we use it else not.

 

In end, I will wait for a17 I just have to drive that 4x4 today or tomorrow, I will drive it one day :)

Link to post
Share on other sites
I frankly have no problem with change/removal/addition of features, even as small as changing button text or colour. My problem is Madmole share and said is working on Attribute system with team now. I am not going back to 2013, but how exactly you guys plan for A17, When you guys wake up one fine morning in 2017, did you just ask developer to go to computer and write something useful. And if it looks good then we start planning on it and start coding on it?

 

Why Funpimps (as they clearly want and use user feedback, I see you and Faatal discuss and act on this very forum thread suggestion) didn't show that Attribute chart 15-16 months ago and take feedback from your experience players. Ask them if this option is good or that. Why it is Exactly a year ago on 5th oct 2017, Madmole show us Bicycle from Game in play screenshot.. And here we are discuss the attribute system which directly effect how much energy will use to paddle a bicycle. Sorry like anyother frustrated fan, I use some hard language. But I totally get the long time it take, I totally get you guys are experimenting and trying good stuffs. But I see your team doesn't have Define focus on task in hand. Fun pimp team is try to make a cake, if it baked well we serve it, else we try again. Team is not planning, not making deadline for themselves to achieve.

 

For home grown game it is okay, but for professional companies it hurt your long term goals. you guys have skills and amazing skills, but your approach to problem is questionable. I would invest in your game as FAN (and I already did), as I know every year or so I get a new game, but as investor I will never invest in Fun Pimps (provided I got that much money :p). I love your game, your passion for development. But your team really need a Direction and need to learn to stick to deadline. Don't push developer or designer for unrealistic deadline, if it take 2 yrs so be it, but plan, think, replan and then start coding. Don't code and see if it works then we use it else not.

 

In end, I will wait for a17 I just have to drive that 4x4 today or tomorrow, I will drive it one day :)

 

Just 1 question comes to mind: How the fek do you know the internal workings of this privately owned company? Not planning? Were you at the meetings? Did you watch over their shoulders while planning, discussing, developping? And btw there is nothing to invest. As said TFP is a private company which only aswers to, well...itself. Imo EA is all about experimenting, see what works and what not in compliance with the vision the owners have for this game.

 

Very curious,

 

Cheers

Link to post
Share on other sites
Have they announced a feature freeze? (Not sarcasm or flippancy or... I've read all A15, 16, and 17 Dev posts and seriously don't remember that being done. They've talked about it.)

 

Yeah, they did. That was back in June, if I remember correctly.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@KhaineGB

 

On the whole pre-Alpha > Alpha > Beta > whatever thing:

 

Do you not think that after Alpha 1.0, 2.0, .... 16.4 - it is now too late to put a label on it? :smile-new:

 

 

@faatal and @Roland and @madmole

 

I am much more keen to find out more about the new skill system! It's very excitingly new and RPG and I have a question or two about it:

 

1. Is there going to be skills you level up through grinding? (E.g. Mining Skill or Scavenging 1/100 @ A16)

 

2. Would main attributes govern item quality crafting? E.g. Intellect to govern Engineering items, such as weapons' quality?

 

3. Roland said we'd be able to obtain a total of 206 skill points at max level - I only count 176 things to spend it on the screenshots - is that not the full list of skills? I only ask, because he mentioned it'd be 1 point for 1 skill. (I may be wrong!)

 

For the record - I DO assume the 206 skill points are not final.

 

Thanks!

Link to post
Share on other sites
the update will not be done before 2 weeks MINIMUM

 

That's right! As per Roland's email to streamers, it will take "at least" another 2 weeks before the streamers get A17E.

But, there will be 7 Days to Die t-shirts given during the streaming... I want one!

Link to post
Share on other sites
@KhaineGB

 

On the whole pre-Alpha > Alpha > Beta > whatever thing:

 

Do you not think that after Alpha 1.0, 2.0, .... 16.4 - it is now too late to put a label on it? :smile-new:

 

Again, as stated SEVERAL times now, I bring it up because people love to use "but it's alpha" as a reason when things get changed despite the fact that's not typically what Alpha is.

 

That is used because it's the norm for Steam Early Access titles.

 

So no. No I don't think it's too late. I would actually love it if they changed the build revision from "Alpha 17" to "Early Access - v17" or something similar. When it goes to beta, it could be "Early Access - Beta v1."

Link to post
Share on other sites
Again, as stated SEVERAL times now, I bring it up because people love to use "but it's alpha" as a reason when things get changed despite the fact that's not typically what Alpha is.

 

That is used because it's the norm for Steam Early Access titles.

 

So no. No I don't think it's too late. I would actually love it if they changed the build revision from "Alpha 17" to "Early Access - v17" or something similar. When it goes to beta, it could be "Early Access - Beta v1."

 

People use the term: "It's Alpha" to answer others, not because it is easy or to troll.

No, it is because that is the reason!

 

You cant wait for the release of A17? Your problem.

You think the game will be obsolete by the time it is finished? Your problem.

Giving false information on this forum, to provoke a response from the dev's? Your problem. (and a little bit the dev's problem too).

 

Finally, I will use your own typical generalizing tone, to explain that:

The public is generally not allow to play a game when it is in Alpha.

This game does, which makes it NOT like other game alphas.

Oh, and Alpha is the stage where things get changed alot! Why would you think otherwise? Even your beloved Wikipidia says so.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Again, as stated SEVERAL times now, I bring it up because people love to use "but it's alpha" as a reason when things get changed despite the fact that's not typically what Alpha is.

 

That is used because it's the norm for Steam Early Access titles.

 

So no. No I don't think it's too late. I would actually love it if they changed the build revision from "Alpha 17" to "Early Access - v17" or something similar. When it goes to beta, it could be "Early Access - Beta v1."

 

So then when they change something that you're not happy about and I say "but it's Early Access - v17" as a reason, you'll be satisfied?

Link to post
Share on other sites
So then when they change something that you're not happy about and I say "but it's Early Access - v17" as a reason, you'll be satisfied?

 

Hell no. I'll still state my opinion if I don't like it. ;)

 

But that brings up another point. It took me AGES to even consider posting that. A lot of stuff coming out of A17 preview stuff is really starting to bother me with how much the game has changed in an alpha, especially when it was stated in A16 that we were basically at beta point (and has now been stated AGAIN).

 

It took me ages because of how many people just absolutely pile on someone who says they don't like something posted. I get it. I do. We have a lot of folks who come in here and just bitch/moan/complain. I tried to make sure I didn't do that and stated I did not understand why this decision/choice was made, but still got jumped on.

 

That really, really, really needs to stop.

Link to post
Share on other sites

^ That's the kind of attitude I'm talking about.

 

Come on folks. We're all here because we love the game. It's OK to criticise something you love.

 

Stop being arses about it. Stop being hostile towards everyone. It is not productive, nor is it a good atmosphere to project in basically the only "official" way to communicate with the devs and the company.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
No. Beta lasts as long as it takes to reduce the bugs to an acceptable level. Once done, release dates typically come down to marketing or financial reasons.

 

That's the theory at least. Sadly, in practice, this is often the other way around.

 

Marketing gives a release date well in advance and ramps up the publicity machine, and then the powers that be decide that features have to be dropped and Beta has to be cut short in order to hit that date regardless of how much of a buggy mess the code is.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Hell no. I'll still state my opinion if I don't like it. ;)

 

But that brings up another point. It took me AGES to even consider posting that. A lot of stuff coming out of A17 preview stuff is really starting to bother me with how much the game has changed in an alpha, especially when it was stated in A16 that we were basically at beta point (and has now been stated AGAIN).

 

It took me ages because of how many people just absolutely pile on someone who says they don't like something posted. I get it. I do. We have a lot of folks who come in here and just bitch/moan/complain. I tried to make sure I didn't do that and stated I did not understand why this decision/choice was made, but still got jumped on.

 

That really, really, really needs to stop.

 

As a modder though, every single change I have seen is welcome and exciting. I know our work is basically trashed and I am 100 percent on board with it. The wheel NEEDED reinvented. Why do you think Ravenhearst was born to begin with? We were growing so very tired of the vanilla way of doing things. We wanted something different, complex.

 

And 17 is giving that to me. As a gamer and a fan that is hella exciting and so far I have seen nothing that I would complain about because every single thing I have seen is either something I wanted to do or something i have done. That to me means their fingers are on the pulse of what the fans want.

 

They want more complex progression, smarter zombies, more deco options etc. And they are giving it all to us and then some. So let em break my mod every day of the week if it means I can log in and have that amazing first time experience all over again. They can label it whatever they want too for all I care.

 

I may have missed your post but if you can what aren't you excited about in 17? I would think everything they have shown us thus far would have gotten you excited.

 

Do I love modding. Yes. Would I rather be PLAYING a more complex game? HELL YES. And they had to rip out the guts to get that vision to us.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I frankly have no problem with change/removal/addition of features, even as small as changing button text or colour. My problem is Madmole share and said is working on Attribute system with team now. I am not going back to 2013, but how exactly you guys plan for A17, When you guys wake up one fine morning in 2017, did you just ask developer to go to computer and write something useful. And if it looks good then we start planning on it and start coding on it?

 

It may seem that way to you because you are not an employee of the company and so do not have access to the internal roadmap for the game. They plan like any company plans. Create a roadmap and hold planning meetings where they adjust, refine, and, yes, sometimes cut. I read the proposals for many of these systems back in 2017 but was not at liberty to discuss them with those who are not employees of the company. I don't think there is anything extraordinary about that, honestly.

 

Why Funpimps (as they clearly want and use user feedback, I see you and Faatal discuss and act on this very forum thread suggestion) didn't show that Attribute chart 15-16 months ago and take feedback from your experience players. Ask them if this option is good or that. Why it is Exactly a year ago on 5th oct 2017, Madmole show us Bicycle from Game in play screenshot.. And here we are discuss the attribute system which directly effect how much energy will use to paddle a bicycle.

 

You are confusing feedback with direction. The Fun Pimps don't want the community to direct their game. They want to direct their game. They already know what they want to do and don't need a committee of 1000s voting in majorities to tell them what designs to put in or how to create their game. They make those decisions and then get feedback from us on what is well received and what is not. But even if the majority of the community hates something the developers want to put in...well...that's what modding is for.

 

Sorry like any other frustrated fan, I use some hard language. But I totally get the long time it take, I totally get you guys are experimenting and trying good stuffs. But I see your team doesn't have Define focus on task in hand. Fun pimp team is try to make a cake, if it baked well we serve it, else we try again. Team is not planning, not making deadline for themselves to achieve.

 

For home grown game it is okay, but for professional companies it hurt your long term goals. you guys have skills and amazing skills, but your approach to problem is questionable. I would invest in your game as FAN (and I already did), as I know every year or so I get a new game, but as investor I will never invest in Fun Pimps (provided I got that much money :p). I love your game, your passion for development. But your team really need a Direction and need to learn to stick to deadline. Don't push developer or designer for unrealistic deadline, if it take 2 yrs so be it, but plan, think, replan and then start coding. Don't code and see if it works then we use it else not.

 

In end, I will wait for a17 I just have to drive that 4x4 today or tomorrow, I will drive it one day :)

 

Your perception is your opinion but it doesn't match with reality. They do have deadlines. But their goals are not based upon a particular date, they are based upon a level of quality. Once they reach their goal they will release it. Internally, they do have goals, deadlines, plans, and they run their business very well. faatal just presented something to the team today that blew my mind. There are going to be amazing new experiences in A17.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Certainly. :) I've been researching game development cycles just out of interest, and came across this.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_development#Alpha

 

I've since done more research to confirm if that's accurate, since wikipedia is not exactly the best source of information due to it's collaborative nature. It seems to be pretty much correct in MOST cases.

 

Early Access games are the outliers in that regard. So if people just said "Well they can change stuff because it's an Early Access game" I'd respond with "They CAN, but it's still a bad idea when they've been 'close to beta' since the A16 videos last year." ;)

 

EDIT: Adding this because I love this description from an industry vet as well.

 

The various studios I've worked at have revised the names a little.

 

There is pre-production. There are several steps to it as well, but basically it starts with pitches and prototypes, then bigger pitches, more prototypes, proof of concept, and eventually the game idea gets accepted and funded.

 

Main development, which fits your description of "pre alpha". This is where most of the work gets done, and the pieces are built. There are several key events.

 

One of the first sought-after milestones is "first playable", where it transitions from being a bunch of non-fun pieces into something that resembles a playable game.

 

The next is is the "vertical slice", meaning there is something that represents all the key pieces. Usually it looks and feels terrible, but all the components are represented.

 

There may be some additional milestones as major features are added.

 

Alpha declaration often matches a milestone "feature complete". All the features that are part of the design are present, or they have been cut from the design. Features are buggy, and content is often sparse, but all the things are there and working more or less correctly.

 

"Content complete" happens generally at some point late in alpha.

 

There are many bug fixes, and lots of parts are moving.

 

Different studios have wildly definitions of beta so it doesn't fit the same place everywhere. Usually it happens somewhere between content complete and one of the asset locks.

 

Next are "audio lock" and "art lock", when these assets are no longer modified except for major bugs, allowing the other systems to stabilize. Next is usually "animation lock" and "effects lock", similarly frozen except for major bugs.

 

With most systems locked down, studios rename it to "finaling" the game. Only the most critical bugs and certification-breaking changes are made. Eventually there are a series of final candidate builds that are heavily tested. When one is approved it is sent on to Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo for final certification. Usually their certification groups come back with a list of things that didn't pass, although sometimes (maybe 5%) the games go through cert without issue. The changes are debated (sometimes the companies will accept certain violations) and others are fixed, and then there will be another final candidate, sometimes this goes back and forth three, four, or rarely more times, it gets expensive quick.

 

The one that is accept is "gold", sent to the presses, and distributed wildly. Sometimes there are bug fixes or changes that were made in case the disk wasn't accepted, but those changes aren't incorporated into the game unless there is a patch.

 

Source:

 

 

why do you write this? what should this change?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Hell no. I'll still state my opinion if I don't like it. ;)

 

But that brings up another point. It took me AGES to even consider posting that. A lot of stuff coming out of A17 preview stuff is really starting to bother me with how much the game has changed in an alpha, especially when it was stated in A16 that we were basically at beta point (and has now been stated AGAIN).

 

It took me ages because of how many people just absolutely pile on someone who says they don't like something posted. I get it. I do. We have a lot of folks who come in here and just bitch/moan/complain. I tried to make sure I didn't do that and stated I did not understand why this decision/choice was made, but still got jumped on.

 

That really, really, really needs to stop.

 

Well I'm glad you posted something you feel passionate about. You did post it in a public forum and so you should be prepared to get negative responses to your view. I get that all the time, myself.

 

I think some of the snarkiness is not aimed at you personally. I think it is aimed at the annoying philosophy of changing jargon because somebody doesn't believe the old term works any longer. I admit that I don't care for such a focus on semantics and feel a bit of resentment towards attempts to change words that are just fine the way they are. As a teacher in the US public education system I'm urged to change the words I use all the time because after awhile someone in admin feels like that word no longer fits or is good enough. Instead of "students" we have to call them "learners" but then after a few years someone thinks that "learners" might send the wrong message so then we have to call them "trainees" since that will help them acclimate to the workforce but then eventually some other admin decides that "trainee" has such a sterile feel to it that she decides the best is to call them "students". <facepalm>

 

I think it is a pointless exercise, myself. But all of the walking thesauruses of the world want to give every synonym its chance in the spotlight, apparently, so sure. Let's call it "EA-v17". As long as we all know that what we are talking about is this current phase of development where the devs are still replacing placeholder systems and overhauling features and cutting stuff and putting in new things, and that we will know when this phase is over because they will stop doing that stuff. You can call it whatever you want.

 

(But the devs of this game are calling it "Alpha" so.........seems easiest......to just.....go with that?)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Well I'm glad you posted something you feel passionate about. You did post it in a public forum and so you should be prepared to get negative responses to your view. I get that all the time, myself.

 

I think some of the snarkiness is not aimed at you personally. I think it is aimed at the annoying philosophy of changing jargon because somebody doesn't believe the old term works any longer. I admit that I don't care for such a focus on semantics and feel a bit of resentment towards attempts to change words that are just fine the way they are. As a teacher in the US public education system I'm urged to change the words I use all the time because after awhile someone in admin feels like that word no longer fits or is good enough. Instead of "students" we have to call them "learners" but then after a few years someone thinks that "learners" might send the wrong message so then we have to call them "trainees" since that will help them acclimate to the workforce but then eventually some other admin decides that "trainee" has such a sterile feel to it that she decides the best is to call them "students". <facepalm>

 

I think it is a pointless exercise, myself. But all of the walking thesauruses of the world want to give every synonym its chance in the spotlight, apparently, so sure. Let's call it "EA-v17". As long as we all know that what we are talking about is this current phase of development where the devs are still replacing placeholder systems and overhauling features and cutting stuff and putting in new things, and that we will know when this phase is over because they will stop doing that stuff. You can call it whatever you want.

 

(But the devs of this game are calling it "Alpha" so.........seems easiest......to just.....go with that?)

 

I have no problem with negative responses. Life would be boring if everyone agreed with you. :) I do have a problem with people being outright rude, sarcastic or making assumptions to cast folks in a negative light (the last one I know I'm bad with and trying to improve... basically adopting a "think before I post" mentality), and that's happening a lot of late.

 

Also, I didn't realise the US teaching system was getting that bad with the use of language/words/terminology/etc. I've got a friend who works in the UK teaching system and she's been saying basically the same thing. They're constantly getting new guidance on what words to use/not use and even she said it's just getting silly now... this is a woman in her 20's as well so there's no reason for her to be as jaded as those of us WAY in our 30's and beyond. :D

 

You do raise an interesting point regarding placeholder systems though. We don't always know what is and isn't a placeholder system in the game. I was pretty sure that the Wellness and Skill systems were solidified, as an example, but I knew the vehicle system was going to get overhauled due to all of the issues with bikes randomly disappearing into the ground. I believe that has been a particular bugbear for the dev team to sort out.

 

If at all possible, it might be handy to know what is basically going to stay (aside from tweaks) and what is currently a placeholder once the latest build is out for folks to play with. That way we know what parts the devs might want feedback on (placeholder systems are a good place to gather feedback if wanted) and what parts need outright bug reports for fixing things. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious about the interaction between the 'It's Alpha'-argument, and the likelihood of TFP releasing some of the Kickstarter goals post-release.

 

If someone remarks about the poor optimization of the game (as it is now), one could counter with 'It's Alpha'. This would imply that the Alpha state of the game implies feature-additions, and not so much feature-optimization. This is perfectly valid.

How would this argument still stand, if major features get added post-release?

 

Oh, and it's almost the 16-month anniversary of A16e. Should we get it a present?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm curious about the interaction between the 'It's Alpha'-argument, and the likelihood of TFP releasing some of the Kickstarter goals post-release.

 

If someone remarks about the poor optimization of the game (as it is now), one could counter with 'It's Alpha'. This would imply that the Alpha state of the game implies feature-additions, and not so much feature-optimization. This is perfectly valid.

How would this argument still stand, if major features get added post-release?

 

Oh, and it's almost the 16-month anniversary of A16e. Should we get it a present?

 

I don't see where the problem with the argument is. "It's Alpha", ergo they focus on content and not polish. Then they can polish it. Then they can add even more features, post-launch. Don't all games that are continuously developed do this?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, and it's almost the 16-month anniversary of A16e. Should we get it a present?

 

What is this? Teenage dating? You'll get your present when it's done!

 

 

 

Sorry, business trip. No decent gaming machine. So... I continued my Dragon Ball Z plunge. I've been watching too much Vegeta. Bahahahaha.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't see where the problem with the argument is. "It's Alpha", ergo they focus on content and not polish. Then they can polish it. Then they can add even more features, post-launch. Don't all games that are continuously developed do this?

 

My 'problem' (it's not really), is that 'It's Alpha' is often used to counter-argue the question/demand for optimization. And by forgoing the classic, rigid, definition of Alpha-Beta-Gold, which occurs when adding features post-launch/post-optimization, one forgoes the 'It's Alpha' argument as well. Fine by me that features will be added during Beta/Gold/whatever you want to call it, no problem at all. But the 'It's Alpha and therefore optimization will come probably later'-argument will not hold if the classic structure is not followed.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

What is this? Teenage dating? You'll get your present when it's done!

 

 

 

Sorry, business trip. No decent gaming machine. So... I continued my Dragon Ball Z plunge. I've been watching too much Vegeta. Bahahahaha.

 

But moooooom..

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...