Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Gnomaana]

I'm going to pull from wiki because it's one of the first few links. However most of the first page results (with 1 or 2 outlyers) on google search + what I've learned from talking with other devs seems to largely match up with this.

 

Alpha

See also: Alpha release

Alpha is the stage when key gameplay functionality is implemented, and assets are partially finished. A game in alpha is feature complete, that is, game is playable and contains all the major features. These features may be further revised based on testing and feedback. Additional small, new features may be added, similarly planned, but unimplemented features may be dropped. Programmers focus mainly on finishing the codebase, rather than implementing additions. Alpha occurs eight to ten months before code release, but this can vary significantly based on the scope of content and assets any given game has.

 

Beta

See also: Beta release

Beta is feature and asset complete version of the game, when only bugs are being fixed. This version contains no bugs that prevent the game from being shippable. No changes are made to the game features, assets, or code. Beta occurs two to three months before code release.

 

 

 

Okay, you clearly can't see the difference. I doubt explaining it will help, but I'm gonna give it a bash anyways.

 

What they did with the vehicles gives us something that is largely the same. Yes, it was ripped out, polished up and even replaced in some regards. But a Minibike in A17 is the same as a minibike in A16. Why am I using that as an example? Because it's the only consistent thing between both alpahs.

 

The skill system? Totally different layout, only a few of the 0-5 perks from A16 seem to be present, most other things appear to be outright removed. THAT is the problem I have. From the few screenshots we've seen, roughly 75% of the current skill system is just not there for no logical reason that I can see other than "That's how TFP want it."

 

Which isn't a very good answer at this stage of development.

 

Now please stop making assumptions.

 

By your definition we shouldn't have a single system not already in Alpha 1.0 then. Find someone that has a copy and see how that would work out.

 

Also, I never made a single assumption. You are though. Namely that you know more about programming than a group that has sold millions of copies of their game. If you don't like the way they do Alpha then do it differently when your game goes Alpha. You will have the longest Pre-Alpha phase in history but that's up to you.

 

Also, don't you Mod? You should be ecstatic over the new buff system which, if I remember correctly, was what they have been needing to fix the skill trees. Everything sounds much more moddable now.

[Gnomaana]

Like I said, this is less of a revision and more of a toss out and replace.

 

While it may be true(I don't presume to know). You have no way to know if that statement is even close to factual. The only way you could know is if you have both the old and new code base to compare.

[Roland]

Roland, i have two questions.

 

First, about the cave system. Are you going to create something similar for better exploring? Imagine something like a metro or subways, it would be really cool and fun, giving even more inmersion to the game. Or even expanding caves, connecting to mines or bigger caves as well.

 

Second, about spider. How is progressing the movement? Does exist an animation for climbing walls Or kinda? Also do they suffer the ragdoll effect if we hit them with strong hits?

 

Caves haven't been touched. They will be no different in A17 than they were in A16....pathetic. As to the future it just depends on what is possible and keeps the world together with players zooming around in different directions in 4x4s and also structural integrity for surface buildings. Minecraft has no structural integrity and therefore no problems with extensive caverns below the surface anywhere. 7 Days to Die has more of a problem in that regard and the problem hasn't been solved for A17.

 

Spiders will not move vertically in A17. The pathing system was completely rewritten and does not support zombies crawling up the sides of buildings. I'm sure it's on faatal's list for A18 though. All zombies ragdoll when stunned or killed.

[Gmad03]

I think the main point khaine is trying to make is why are they completely changing core gameplay systems when the game is going gold in less then 15 months according to madmole. Early alpha changes made sense but when it’s so close to being done seems strange to be changing the whole way the game plays so close to full release. Could be wrong but that’s kind of what I’ve taken out of what he’s said last few pages.

[Gnomaana]

Khaine's definition of Alpha doesn't give you a playable game until YEARS into the dev cycle. EA is actually more work in a lot of way because there needs to be so many different playable stages along the way. There is a lot of work done to get to those stages that if you were doing only in house development you could just skip and let your play testers suffer through. For EA to be at all workable then Alpha is exactly what TFP is doing and Beta will be content lock and bug fixing. It would not work any other way for an EA game.

[KhaineGB]

By your definition we shouldn't have a single system not already in Alpha 1.0 then. Find someone that has a copy and see how that would work out.

 

Also, I never made a single assumption. You are though. Namely that you know more about programming than a group that has sold millions of copies of their game. If you don't like the way they do Alpha then do it differently when your game goes Alpha. You will have the longest Pre-Alpha phase in history but that's up to you.

 

Also, don't you Mod? You should be ecstatic over the new buff system which, if I remember correctly, was what they have been needing to fix the skill trees. Everything sounds much more moddable now.

 

Technically you are correct. No we shouldn't and that goes back to the fact that Early Access is now considered an acceptable label to toss on an Alpha game and then totally change things, when pre-alpha would be more appropriate.

 

I am not making an assumption that I know more about programming than a group who has sold millions of copies of a game. At no point did I state that, nor imply it.

 

I have ONLY stuck to the phrasing and words used regarding the various development stages that a game goes through, with evidence to back it up. No assumptions made regarding my knowledge vs theirs, and CERTAINLY no mention of my PROGRAMMING knowledge vs theirs.

 

You're putting words into my mouth and making your own assumptions. Stop it.

 

While it may be true(I don't presume to know). You have no way to know if that statement is even close to factual. The only way you could know is if you have both the old and new code base to compare.

 

Look at the info dump posted earlier (which you referenced regarding me modding) and you'll see that quite a few skill effects are actually gone. On the plus side, we've gotten more and some of the ones that DIDN'T work before (like reload speed) now do, so that's good.

 

However the actual screenshots posted do appear to be a toss out and replace, which I did state was an assumption on my part in my original post.

[faatal]

Beta is feature and asset complete version of the game, when only bugs are being fixed.

 

Sure.

 

This version contains no bugs that prevent the game from being shippable.

 

Yeah, right. The bugs don't walk up to you and announce themselves. Betas contain numerous unknown bugs, some of which you would not ship a game with.

 

No changes are made to the game features, assets, or code. Beta occurs two to three months before code release.

 

Nice logic problem there. If no changes are made to the code, then the bugs are fixed by magic?

 

Beta occurs two to three months before code release.

 

No. Beta lasts as long as it takes to reduce the bugs to an acceptable level. Once done, release dates typically come down to marketing or financial reasons.

 

 

That mess needs to be rewritten.

[KhaineGB]

Sure.

 

 

 

Yeah, right. The bugs don't walk up to you and announce themselves. Betas contain numerous unknown bugs, some of which you would not ship a game with.

 

 

 

Nice logic problem there. If no changes are made to the code, then the bugs are fixed by magic?

 

 

 

No. Beta lasts as long as it takes to reduce the bugs to an acceptable level. Once done, release dates typically come down to marketing or financial reasons.

 

 

That mess needs to be rewritten.

 

That's literally a quote from Wikipedia, so don't shoot the messenger.

 

Yes, it probably needs to be re-written. Yes, it's probably out of date (especially regarding time frames), however the logical progression of pre-alpha -> alpha -> beta -> whatever does appear to be verified by other folks in other forums and discussion threads. Some of the steps in-between are up for debate, but those are largely accepted as "correct."

 

As stated earlier, it's only Steam Early Access that has muddied the waters.

[faatal]

What they did with the vehicles gives us something that is largely the same. Yes, it was ripped out, polished up and even replaced in some regards. But a Minibike in A17 is the same as a minibike in A16. Why am I using that as an example? Because it's the only consistent thing between both alpahs.

 

No it is not. Minibike construction, handling, camera, sounds and code/xml are very different. The physics are a 100% different system.

[Jackelmyer]

As stated earlier, it's only Steam Early Access that has muddied the waters.

 

Steam's Early Access specifically has cause a ton of flame over the whole topic. And in reality, there's pretty much no where to talk about it and make the conversation matter....

[faatal]

That's literally a quote from Wikipedia, so don't shoot the messenger.

 

Wikipedia did not make you post it. That was your choice.

 

It plainly says "when only bugs are being fixed" and "No changes are made to the game...code"

 

In what universe was that logic ever correct?

[RavenSyndil]

Wanders in to comment:

 

I love 7 Days to Die.. whatever version we are on. I have no issue with messing around with A16 for as long as necessary for The Fun Pimps to get A17 to a place where THEY are happy with presenting it to us. I just wanted to let the folks working so hard to make an already great (imho) game even better and I will wait just as long as it takes for THEM to decide it is ready for the next step in it's evolution. *hugs* to all TFP staff and folks like Roland who try daily to give us a great game to play!

[KhaineGB]

Wikipedia did not make you post it. That was your choice.

 

It plainly says "when only bugs are being fixed" and "No changes are made to the game...code"

 

In what universe was that logic ever correct?

 

Logically it doesn't, but my assumption is they believe the reader would deduce this means nothing NEW is added, only bugs are being fixed.

 

Unless they mean fixing bugs with assets, but we all know that's a load of crap because beta often has rarer, annoying code-related bugs that need to be fixed.

 

I took it as meaning fixing any code-related bugs that need to be fixed, no other code tweaks unless absolutely necessary (so no more adding stuff) and fixing any asset issues.

[faatal]

Are all of these things like a rule? I've had this conversation in our Discord when people expect me, a modder who is definitely not a professional, expect me to stick to the same rules for my patches and updates. Which I always laugh off because, well, if I am doing the work I get to set the rules, not them.

 

It seems in this day of EA these rules are definitely changing across the board. Looking at Ark and Empyrion alone none of those companies follow ANY of those definitions.

 

Game development is a very different place today than it was 5 years ago and 10 years ago. I think the days of companies conforming to a single standard are definitely in the rearview.

 

Exactly.

 

I don't think companies have ever conformed to one standard across the board. There are often similarities, but many exceptions at every company I've worked at.

 

At Frostburn for HoN we had sbt (super beta testers) versions which eventually turned into rct, then release versions. That was a free to play game that was never done. Nothing was an alpha, just constant cycling between those types.

[Telosbudo]

Faatal, Does the game run A LOT smoother now that that textures are reduced for objects at greater and greater distances? MM mentioned this in his vid he made 5 weeks ago. But He didn't get into so much action as to really stress-test the stuttering and sluggishness that's come to be associated with the game during moderate to high action, or during the rendering of landscapes while driving etc.

[SmooreMC85]

Caves haven't been touched. They will be no different in A17 than they were in A16....pathetic. As to the future it just depends on what is possible and keeps the world together with players zooming around in different directions in 4x4s and also structural integrity for surface buildings. Minecraft has no structural integrity and therefore no problems with extensive caverns below the surface anywhere. 7 Days to Die has more of a problem in that regard and the problem hasn't been solved for A17.

 

Spiders will not move vertically in A17. The pathing system was completely rewritten and does not support zombies crawling up the sides of buildings. I'm sure it's on faatal's list for A18 though. All zombies ragdoll when stunned or killed.

 

Do zombies still climb ladders?

[faatal]

Faatal, Does the game run A LOT smoother now that that textures are reduced for objects at greater and greater distances? MM mentioned this in his vid he made 5 weeks ago. But He didn't get into so much action as to really stress-test the stuttering and sluggishness that's come to be associated with the game during moderate to high action, or during the rendering of landscapes while driving etc.

 

Don't know. I spend most of my time in the Unity editor and it tends to run from mediocre to horrible in there depending on if the Scene view is shown. By comparison a build runs great, but I'm only playtesting like that in short bursts.

[KhaineGB]

Don't know. I spend most of my time in the Unity editor and it tends to run from mediocre to horrible in there depending on if the Scene view is shown. By comparison a build runs great, but I'm only playtesting like that in short bursts.

 

Can confirm on this one. The unity editor runs like absolute crap

[MidnightRook]

@faatal Can you (or anyone) tell me if we will be able to mod the game to include a couple of extra equipment slots at any point? Or will that be hard coded and absolutely unchangeable forevermore?

[Kalyori]

@faatal Can you (or anyone) tell me if we will be able to mod the game to include a couple of extra equipment slots at any point? Or will that be hard coded and absolutely unchangeable forevermore?

That would actually be really cool.

[MidnightRook]

That would actually be really cool.

 

Lol yes, I have been pulling for it for myself because, dammit, I want underwear slots and the ability to change underwear is the last slice of civilization we have to us in an apocalypse, think of it as being similar to being able to travel the width and breadth of the Galaxy, hitchhiking and still knowing where your towel is. That's a frood who really has their act together!

[Kalyori]

Lol yes, I have been pulling for it for myself because, dammit, I want underwear slots and the ability to change underwear is the last slice of civilization we have to us in an apocalypse, think of it as being similar to being able to travel the width and breadth of the Galaxy, hitchhiking and still knowing where your towel is. That's a frood who really has their act together!

Hahaha absolutely. I would totally collect underwear and run around killing zombies... should be able to make our own too - paint it and draw on it. Make our own art.

[Robbing Zombie]

Hahaha absolutely. I would totally collect underwear and run around killing zombies... should be able to make our own too - paint it and draw on it. Make our own art.

 

Now I got the underpants gnomes song playing in my head lol. And I'm at work. Coincidence?

[archergod]

Call it whatever you like. Pre-Alpha or Alpha or Indev or whatever. The stage in which we are participating is one in which these developers like to experiment and develop by degrees. The wellness system was something they experimented with and ultimately rejected. All of these changes would have been done behind closed doors a couple of decades ago and none of us would have been able to experience the changes at all. All we would have been able to do would be to have read a small blurb in PC Gamer about a reporter's experience visiting The Fun Pimp's studio and trying the game out for an hour and then an expected release date for the game.

 

If you want to go traditionalist then from 2013-2019 there would be nothing for us. Then in 2019 the full version would come out and that would be all we ever knew. We would have had no clue about:

 

Minimaps

Clay Molds

Grid-based Crafting

Spam Crafting

Horde Mode

Extensive Cave Systems

Wellness

The Sheer cliffs of Alpha 10

The Grass biome

The maple forest biome

Limitless maps

Hub cities

Giant Hornets

Playing the game without XP or Quality tiers

Farming underground

Blocky terrain

Multiple Respawn Points

Navezgane as the only map option

Gore Blocks

1x1 Ingress

2 block jumping

Smelly Food

No crafting or looting timers

No block upgrading

 

 

We got to play the game in many different ways and have those memories because we are a part of this development process that is open to early access. Any creative work is going to have rewrites and cuts. It is the same whether it is video games, movies, books, whatever. Those who can roll with the ups and downs of the development process will have an amazing ride. Those who can't are going to hate it. So it doesn't matter what you call it, what matters is whether you can enjoy it for what it is and keep fond memories of how the game used to be that you got to experience and future customers of the finished game will never know about.

 

I frankly have no problem with change/removal/addition of features, even as small as changing button text or colour. My problem is Madmole share and said is working on Attribute system with team now. I am not going back to 2013, but how exactly you guys plan for A17, When you guys wake up one fine morning in 2017, did you just ask developer to go to computer and write something useful. And if it looks good then we start planning on it and start coding on it?

 

Why Funpimps (as they clearly want and use user feedback, I see you and Faatal discuss and act on this very forum thread suggestion) didn't show that Attribute chart 15-16 months ago and take feedback from your experience players. Ask them if this option is good or that. Why it is Exactly a year ago on 5th oct 2017, Madmole show us Bicycle from Game in play screenshot.. And here we are discuss the attribute system which directly effect how much energy will use to paddle a bicycle. Sorry like anyother frustrated fan, I use some hard language. But I totally get the long time it take, I totally get you guys are experimenting and trying good stuffs. But I see your team doesn't have Define focus on task in hand. Fun pimp team is try to make a cake, if it baked well we serve it, else we try again. Team is not planning, not making deadline for themselves to achieve.

 

For home grown game it is okay, but for professional companies it hurt your long term goals. you guys have skills and amazing skills, but your approach to problem is questionable. I would invest in your game as FAN (and I already did), as I know every year or so I get a new game, but as investor I will never invest in Fun Pimps (provided I got that much money ). I love your game, your passion for development. But your team really need a Direction and need to learn to stick to deadline. Don't push developer or designer for unrealistic deadline, if it take 2 yrs so be it, but plan, think, replan and then start coding. Don't code and see if it works then we use it else not.

 

In end, I will wait for a17 I just have to drive that 4x4 today or tomorrow, I will drive it one day

[Space4Ace]

Do zombies still climb ladders?

 

Yes. And whatever you can climb, so will zombies; meaning that breaking the bottom ladder trick isn't safe anymore... They will follow!