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Developer Discussions: Alpha 17


Roland

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17  

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  1. 1. Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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I'm going to pull from wiki because it's one of the first few links. However most of the first page results (with 1 or 2 outlyers) on google search + what I've learned from talking with other devs seems to largely match up with this.

 

Alpha

See also: Alpha release

Alpha is the stage when key gameplay functionality is implemented, and assets are partially finished. A game in alpha is feature complete, that is, game is playable and contains all the major features. These features may be further revised based on testing and feedback.

 

Thing is...the skill/perk system existed prior to A17. It has been revised. Yes, it's a MASSIVE revision, but it is still just that, a revision. You're welcome to dislike said revision (and obviously you do), but it's still perfectly within the context of an Alpha development process.

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We haven't seen much yet, but I'd be surprised if most of the effects themselves that we got from skills and perks were not there anymore. They probably will be, if under different names/categories. To me it seems more like the system was fleshed out and refactored, with new effects coming on top of what was there before thanks to their new systems (like the area stun effect we saw in those pictures, or the stamina recovery per bullet hit).

 

From the info dump much earlier, a lot of the abilities/effects DO appear to be there.

 

So it should be possible, in theory, to mod the old system back in if folks wanted to do that. :) I know I'm going to see about doing some kind of hybrid if possible.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Thing is...the skill/perk system existed prior to A17. It has been revised. Yes, it's a MASSIVE revision, but it is still just that, a revision. You're welcome to dislike said revision (and obviously you do), but it's still perfectly within the context of an Alpha development process.

 

The skill/perk system prior to A17 was largely the same except for some additions. I remember the skill system being present back when we had the OLD UI, it just didnt do anything (you could level up too, but it didnt do anything).

 

Like I said, this is less of a revision and more of a toss out and replace.

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From the info dump much earlier, a lot of the abilities/effects DO appear to be there.

 

So it should be possible, in theory, to mod the old system back in if folks wanted to do that. :) I know I'm going to see about doing some kind of hybrid if possible.

 

Who knows, you might end up liking what they've done with the new one. I know to me it looks quite interesting so far, with more to it than just incrementals!

 

Two people usually do not constitute 'all'. (Gnomanna and Drithyl)

Attacked?

Nuthuggers?

 

I hope I'm not considered into that "all", to be honest. I didn't even argue against whatever KhaineGB said! As for "TFP nuthuggers", I don't even...

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Khaine: (kemo - if I may. Massive Darkness Falls fan. You might remember me as Kobalt Blue.)

 

I also found this on wikipedia:

 

"Alpha software can be unstable and could cause crashes or data loss. Alpha software may not contain all of the features that are planned for the final version.[2] In general, external availability of alpha software is uncommon in proprietary software, while open source software often has publicly available alpha versions. The alpha phase usually ends with a feature freeze, indicating that no more features will be added to the software. At this time, the software is said to be feature complete."

 

Have they announced a feature freeze? (Not sarcasm or flippancy or... I've read all A15, 16, and 17 Dev posts and seriously don't remember that being done. They've talked about it.)

 

As for 'Alpha': You know how the word 'literally' has changed? (not with my blessing.) How about 'irregardless' now being accepted? Words and their definitions can change.

 

And, irregardless (!), what would you have called all/each 17 alphas so far - ff we take your definition of Alpha 'literally'? Should there be a new name for things in between pre-alpha and alpha that are 'early access'able?

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The skill/perk system prior to A17 was largely the same except for some additions. I remember the skill system being present back when we had the OLD UI, it just didnt do anything (you could level up too, but it didnt do anything).

 

Like I said, this is less of a revision and more of a toss out and replace.

 

Not trying to be (super) argumentative, but the definition of "revise" is, according to Merriam-Webster, "to make a new, amended, improved, or up-to-date version of" . Your argument is a distinction without an actual difference. I'm not saying your complaint about the system itself doesn't have merit (it may), but your argument that it shouldn't be happening during an alpha is the issue. This is what alpha is FOR.

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Khaine: (kemo - if I may. Massive Darkness Falls fan. You might remember me as Kobalt Blue.)

 

I also found this on wikipedia:

 

"Alpha software can be unstable and could cause crashes or data loss. Alpha software may not contain all of the features that are planned for the final version.[2] In general, external availability of alpha software is uncommon in proprietary software, while open source software often has publicly available alpha versions. The alpha phase usually ends with a feature freeze, indicating that no more features will be added to the software. At this time, the software is said to be feature complete."

 

Have they announced a feature freeze? (Not sarcasm or flippancy or... I've read all A15, 16, and 17 Dev posts and seriously don't remember that being done. They've talked about it.)

 

As for 'Alpha': You know how the word 'literally' has changed? (not with my blessing.) How about 'irregardless' now being accepted? Words and their definitions can change.

 

And, irregardless (!), what would you have called all/each 17 alphas so far - ff we take your definition of Alpha 'literally'? Should there be a new name for things in between pre-alpha and alpha that are 'early access'able?

 

The wikipedia definition is what I found, but it's been corroborated with later web pages and discussions, which is why I used that as my basis for what an Alpha should/should not be.

 

The problem is that Early Access has basically broken that. Doesn't change the fact it's not what an Alpha is FOR, it's just changed people's interpretations, which is why I keep pointing out that interpretation and excuse is technically incorrect. :) I also recommend checking the wiki definition of Alpha in game dev, as it's largely the same.

 

And I believe MM said they're looking at going to feature freeze and beta after A17, aside from some minor tweaks (like getting multiple passengers working on vehicles). Problem is I remember that being said during the A16 Experimental hype videos as well... so...

 

As for Alpha/Early Access.... absolutely. My personal opinion is that Early Access games that are going to change a lot should be considered Pre-Alpha while they get the systems in-place and most assets should be placeholders. Then Alpha is used to start adding in whatever assets are missing and polish up bug issues, etc. :)

 

Not trying to be (super) argumentative, but the definition of "revise" is, according to Merriam-Webster, "to make a new, amended, improved, or up-to-date version of" . Your argument is a distinction without an actual difference. I'm not saying your complaint about the system itself doesn't have merit (it may), but your argument that it shouldn't be happening during an alpha is the issue. This is what alpha is FOR.

 

You're not arguing. You're discussing. That's fine. :) Discussing broadens horizons.

 

And again, my argument/point about it not happening during Alpha is because that ISN'T what alpha is for. Alpha is for bug polishing, stripping out anything they can't make work and putting in any missing assets. Not replacing systems. The wellness one is another good example. That was added, tweaked so it worked better... and now it's gone. Why? What was the point of putting it into the game in the first place? That is NOT what an Alpha is for. That's for the stage before Alpha if you want to test things out.

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Alpha is for bug polishing, stripping out anything they can't make work and putting in any missing assets. Not replacing systems. The wellness one is another good example. That was added, tweaked so it worked better... and now it's gone. Why? What was the point of putting it into the game in the first place? That is NOT what an Alpha is for. That's for the stage before Alpha if you want to test things out.

 

While i agree with you on your point about the wellness system being added then taken away, kind of a waste of time and resource. Alpha isn't for bug squashing and polishing, that's what beta is for and i wouldn't go as far as to say the perks/skills has been totally ripped out, it's just had it's second iteration, more to what the TFP had envisioned it to be.

 

Also at the end of the day it's TFP's project and they can handle the situation however they see fit it's their game, their property and their prerogative. I think it's worked out so far. :)

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And again, my argument/point about it not happening during Alpha is because that ISN'T what alpha is for. Alpha is for bug polishing, stripping out anything they can't make work and putting in any missing assets. Not replacing systems. The wellness one is another good example. That was added, tweaked so it worked better... and now it's gone. Why? What was the point of putting it into the game in the first place? That is NOT what an Alpha is for. That's for the stage before Alpha if you want to test things out.

 

Call it whatever you like. Pre-Alpha or Alpha or Indev or whatever. The stage in which we are participating is one in which these developers like to experiment and develop by degrees. The wellness system was something they experimented with and ultimately rejected. All of these changes would have been done behind closed doors a couple of decades ago and none of us would have been able to experience the changes at all. All we would have been able to do would be to have read a small blurb in PC Gamer about a reporter's experience visiting The Fun Pimp's studio and trying the game out for an hour and then an expected release date for the game.

 

If you want to go traditionalist then from 2013-2019 there would be nothing for us. Then in 2019 the full version would come out and that would be all we ever knew. We would have had no clue about:

 

Minimaps

Clay Molds

Grid-based Crafting

Spam Crafting

Horde Mode

Extensive Cave Systems

Wellness

The Sheer cliffs of Alpha 10

The Grass biome

The maple forest biome

Limitless maps

Hub cities

Giant Hornets

Playing the game without XP or Quality tiers

Farming underground

Blocky terrain

Multiple Respawn Points

Navezgane as the only map option

Gore Blocks

1x1 Ingress

2 block jumping

Smelly Food

No crafting or looting timers

No block upgrading

 

 

We got to play the game in many different ways and have those memories because we are a part of this development process that is open to early access. Any creative work is going to have rewrites and cuts. It is the same whether it is video games, movies, books, whatever. Those who can roll with the ups and downs of the development process will have an amazing ride. Those who can't are going to hate it. So it doesn't matter what you call it, what matters is whether you can enjoy it for what it is and keep fond memories of how the game used to be that you got to experience and future customers of the finished game will never know about.

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Call it whatever you like. Pre-Alpha or Alpha or Indev or whatever. The stage in which we are participating is one in which these developers like to experiment and develop by degrees. The wellness system was something they experimented with and ultimately rejected. All of these changes would have been done behind closed doors a couple of decades ago and none of us would have been able to experience the changes at all. All we would have been able to do would be to have read a small blurb in PC Gamer about a reporter's experience visiting The Fun Pimp's studio and trying the game out for an hour and then an expected release date for the game.

 

If you want to go traditionalist then from 2013-2019 there would be nothing for us. Then in 2019 the full version would come out and that would be all we ever knew. We would have had no clue about:

 

Minimaps

Clay Molds

Grid-based Crafting

Spam Crafting

Horde Mode

Extensive Cave Systems

Wellness

The Sheer cliffs of Alpha 10

The Grass biome

The maple forest biome

Limitless maps

Hub cities

Giant Hornets

Playing the game without XP or Quality tiers

Farming underground

Blocky terrain

Multiple Respawn Points

Navezgane as the only map option

Gore Blocks

1x1 Ingress

2 block jumping

Smelly Food

No crafting or looting timers

No block upgrading

 

 

We got to play the game in many different ways and have those memories because we are a part of this development process that is open to early access. Any creative work is going to have rewrites and cuts. It is the same whether it is video games, movies, books, whatever. Those who can roll with the ups and downs of the development process will have an amazing ride. Those who can't are going to hate it. So it doesn't matter what you call it, what matters is whether you can enjoy it for what it is and keep fond memories of how the game used to be that you got to experience and future customers of the finished game will never know about.

 

So say we all?!

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The wikipedia definition is what I found, but it's been corroborated with later web pages and discussions, which is why I used that as my basis for what an Alpha should/should not be.

 

Just my observation on this line of thought. It, in my opinion, doesn't matter what you call it or how you define it at all. There is no rigid "mode" you are in where you have to do it this way or that way. This is the way TFP are doing it. Not judging it as good or bad because it doesn't matter. If it doesn't fit your definition of an Alpha then so be it, agree to disagree. Don't call it and Alpha state if it makes you feel better...call it being in a "TFP State" because that defines them as working on this game in the way they do it. Part of accepting that TFP State also includes their rights to call it Alpha, because it has 0 impact on what is important...which is, they are doing it.

 

They could call it "Prisim Mirror mode" state and it would have 0 impact on the only part that really is important...which again...is what it is they are doing it and how. There are not guard rails in a company that wants to be creative and feel free to go off some rigid definition.

 

It shouldn't matter what you call it. But I am curious, and open to new ideas. Can you give me some information that explains how the title of the state should dictate what you do, as opposed to just doing what you want/need to do? I know what my opinion is but I am always open to suggestion. :) Understanding how other brains work is a worthy pass time of mine.

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Just my observation on this line of thought. It, in my opinion, doesn't matter what you call it or how you define it at all. There is no rigid "mode" you are in where you have to do it this way or that way. This is the way TFP are doing it. Not judging it as good or bad because it doesn't matter. If it doesn't fit your definition of an Alpha then so be it, agree to disagree. Don't call it and Alpha state if it makes you feel better...call it being in a "TFP State" because that defines them as working on this game in the way they do it. Part of accepting that TFP State also includes their rights to call it Alpha, because it has 0 impact on what is important...which is, they are doing it.

 

They could call it "Prisim Mirror mode" state and it would have 0 impact on the only part that really is important...which again...is what it is they are doing it and how. There are not guard rails in a company that wants to be creative and feel free to go off some rigid definition.

 

It shouldn't matter what you call it. But I am curious, and open to new ideas. Can you give me some information that explains how the title of the state should dictate what you do, as opposed to just doing what you want/need to do? I know what my opinion is but I am always open to suggestion. :) Understanding how other brains work is a worthy pass time of mine.

 

Certainly. :) I've been researching game development cycles just out of interest, and came across this.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_development#Alpha

 

I've since done more research to confirm if that's accurate, since wikipedia is not exactly the best source of information due to it's collaborative nature. It seems to be pretty much correct in MOST cases.

 

Early Access games are the outliers in that regard. So if people just said "Well they can change stuff because it's an Early Access game" I'd respond with "They CAN, but it's still a bad idea when they've been 'close to beta' since the A16 videos last year." ;)

 

EDIT: Adding this because I love this description from an industry vet as well.

 

The various studios I've worked at have revised the names a little.

 

There is pre-production. There are several steps to it as well, but basically it starts with pitches and prototypes, then bigger pitches, more prototypes, proof of concept, and eventually the game idea gets accepted and funded.

 

Main development, which fits your description of "pre alpha". This is where most of the work gets done, and the pieces are built. There are several key events.

 

One of the first sought-after milestones is "first playable", where it transitions from being a bunch of non-fun pieces into something that resembles a playable game.

 

The next is is the "vertical slice", meaning there is something that represents all the key pieces. Usually it looks and feels terrible, but all the components are represented.

 

There may be some additional milestones as major features are added.

 

Alpha declaration often matches a milestone "feature complete". All the features that are part of the design are present, or they have been cut from the design. Features are buggy, and content is often sparse, but all the things are there and working more or less correctly.

 

"Content complete" happens generally at some point late in alpha.

 

There are many bug fixes, and lots of parts are moving.

 

Different studios have wildly definitions of beta so it doesn't fit the same place everywhere. Usually it happens somewhere between content complete and one of the asset locks.

 

Next are "audio lock" and "art lock", when these assets are no longer modified except for major bugs, allowing the other systems to stabilize. Next is usually "animation lock" and "effects lock", similarly frozen except for major bugs.

 

With most systems locked down, studios rename it to "finaling" the game. Only the most critical bugs and certification-breaking changes are made. Eventually there are a series of final candidate builds that are heavily tested. When one is approved it is sent on to Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo for final certification. Usually their certification groups come back with a list of things that didn't pass, although sometimes (maybe 5%) the games go through cert without issue. The changes are debated (sometimes the companies will accept certain violations) and others are fixed, and then there will be another final candidate, sometimes this goes back and forth three, four, or rarely more times, it gets expensive quick.

 

The one that is accept is "gold", sent to the presses, and distributed wildly. Sometimes there are bug fixes or changes that were made in case the disk wasn't accepted, but those changes aren't incorporated into the game unless there is a patch.

 

Source:

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Certainly. :) I've been researching game development cycles just out of interest, and came across this.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_development#Alpha

 

I've since done more research to confirm if that's accurate, since wikipedia is not exactly the best source of information due to it's collaborative nature. It seems to be pretty much correct in MOST cases.

 

Early Access games are the outliers in that regard. So if people just said "Well they can change stuff because it's an Early Access game" I'd respond with "They CAN, but it's still a bad idea when they've been 'close to beta' since the A16 videos last year." ;)

 

I see that. Orderly, sensible...to a point. If they are replacing a decent system with one they find superior...and they can do it...why not do it? Just because it says Alpha we shouldn't do what is best for the game? (allegedly, its TFP prerogative to do what they feel is best)

 

Just taking Alpha out of it. If they are in "TFP stage" and that officially allows them to gut a system and upgrade...would their be less consternation?

 

That model just seems to be best for time crunches really from what I see...when you have publishers breathing down your neck for immediate results. TFP don't have that to answer to. And "near Beta" can mean anything...so its not a question of how much time it takes to actually get there. I mean, these "states" are meaningless when it comes down to it.

 

Having Labels drive action makes no sense to me...having actions create labels makes a little more sense in my opinion. I am not sure what the actual issue is here because I don't get anything on how calling it Alpha or Zeta or anything actually makes it better or worse. Can you help me with that point? How the name affects the actual action?

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I dunno, Khaine, you're a helluva modder with "Darkness Falls" and your other projects, so I think whatever your crazy modding brain decides to cook up with A17, you should call it whatever you want to call it.

 

As a lowly pleb who nearly bent his mobo pins installing his new CPU, I'll play whatever you and our crazy-talented modding masterminds decide to cook up, no matter what filthy names you come up with for the TFP's dev cycle ;-)

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I see that. Orderly, sensible...to a point. If they are replacing a decent system with one they find superior...and they can do it...why not do it? Just because it says Alpha we shouldn't do what is best for the game? (allegedly, its TFP prerogative to do what they feel is best)

 

Just taking Alpha out of it. If they are in "TFP stage" and that officially allows them to gut a system and upgrade...would their be less consternation?

 

That model just seems to be best for time crunches really from what I see...when you have publishers breathing down your neck for immediate results. TFP don't have that to answer to. And "near Beta" can mean anything...so its not a question of how much time it takes to actually get there. I mean, these "states" are meaningless when it comes down to it.

 

Having Labels drive action makes no sense to me...having actions create labels makes a little more sense in my opinion. I am not sure what the actual issue is here because I don't get anything on how calling it Alpha or Zeta or anything actually makes it better or worse. Can you help me with that point? How the name affects the actual action?

 

I don't see it as labels driving action. I see it as labels clearly defining at what point of development a piece of software is in so the consumer knows what to expect. :) The issue is that Early Access has corrupted the meaning of Alpha as most software in EA should be considered Pre-Alpha as per the definition supplied bu an industry dev.

 

Regarding the "Near beta" thing, it's because it's been stated twice now. I believe it was the video where MM was showing off his castle build and the copy rotation function for A16. He stated THEN that A16 was likely going to be the last Alpha... and then it wasn't. Now A17 is apparently going to be the "last Alpha" and we're looking at going gold in 2019. That's why I'm concerned about ripping things out and bringing out the actual definition of "Alpha Software" when people try to justify it with that reasoning.

 

That is not what Alpha is for. That is what pre-alpha is for. If people wish to defend the decisions that TFP make, at least say "Well it's early access" but I'm still going to counter with the evidence that we've apparently been "on the last alpha" or "close to beta" twice now. :)

 

I dunno, Khaine, you're a helluva modder with "Darkness Falls" and your other projects, so I think whatever your crazy modding brain decides to cook up with A17, you should call it whatever you want to call it.

 

As a lowly pleb who nearly bent his mobo pins installing his new CPU, I'll play whatever you and our crazy-talented modding masterminds decide to cook up, no matter what filthy names you come up with for the TFP's dev cycle ;-)

 

To be fair, I did that.

 

Don't drop CPU's onto sockets. It bends pins.

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Roland, i have two questions.

 

First, about the cave system. Are you going to create something similar for better exploring? Imagine something like a metro or subways, it would be really cool and fun, giving even more inmersion to the game. Or even expanding caves, connecting to mines or bigger caves as well.

 

Second, about spider. How is progressing the movement? Does exist an animation for climbing walls Or kinda? Also do they suffer the ragdoll effect if we hit them with strong hits?

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What's the point of nitpicking about the definition of alpha? Words change. Everyone with an Early Access game is calling it "alpha" whether they're correct or not.

 

What does Steam say about Early Access games when you go to buy one?

 

Get instant access and start playing; get involved with this game as it develops.

Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development.

 

Get immediate access to games that are being developed with the community's involvement. These are games that evolve as you play them, as you give feedback, and as the developers update and add content.

 

There is a "learn more" button on the page, covering more detail about what we're buying. Whether they call it alpha beta or banana, it's clearly stated by Steam what we may expect.

 

It's not as if someone could have bought this game expecting it to be finished.

 

I don't really care when 7D finishes - TFP have done a great job with it so far. I look forward to more alphas, because that means more content! When we hit beta and gold, new features may not be on the roadmap.

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Roland, i have two questions.

 

First, about the cave system. Are you going to create something similar for better exploring? Imagine something like a metro or subways, it would be really cool and fun, giving even more inmersion to the game. Or even expanding caves, connecting to mines or bigger caves as well.

 

Second, about spider. How is progressing the movement? Does exist an animation for climbing walls Or kinda? Also do they suffer the ragdoll effect if we hit them with strong hits?

 

Like Minecraft! Would be cool to have a really elaborate cave/mine/subway/temple/graveyard-tombs/etc generation system like that. I always really enjoyed that aspect of Minecraft.

 

The Fun Pimps sort of starting to implement this already. I found an "abandoned mine", but it's just a small POI and doesn't go far. We'd need an actual generation system to get big and different mines, like what Minecraft does, similar to roads and other such things in 7DtD.

 

What keeps POIs the freshest is when they're more randomly generated like that. I know there is some of that, but I think the overall building structure is mostly all static as well as a lot of the smaller internals, so not that much variation. Seeing more POI randomization, for example a "store generator" that did different shelf layouts and different product areas, would I think be cool and would add quite a bit more personality to the game.

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Are all of these things like a rule? I've had this conversation in our Discord when people expect me, a modder who is definitely not a professional, expect me to stick to the same rules for my patches and updates. Which I always laugh off because, well, if I am doing the work I get to set the rules, not them.

 

It seems in this day of EA these rules are definitely changing across the board. Looking at Ark and Empyrion alone none of those companies follow ANY of those definitions.

 

Game development is a very different place today than it was 5 years ago and 10 years ago. I think the days of companies conforming to a single standard are definitely in the rearview.

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I don't see it as labels driving action. I see it as labels clearly defining at what point of development a piece of software is in so the consumer knows what to expect. :) The issue is that Early Access has corrupted the meaning of Alpha as most software in EA should be considered Pre-Alpha as per the definition supplied bu an industry dev.

 

Regarding the "Near beta" thing, it's because it's been stated twice now. I believe it was the video where MM was showing off his castle build and the copy rotation function for A16. He stated THEN that A16 was likely going to be the last Alpha... and then it wasn't. Now A17 is apparently going to be the "last Alpha" and we're looking at going gold in 2019. That's why I'm concerned about ripping things out and bringing out the actual definition of "Alpha Software" when people try to justify it with that reasoning.

 

That is not what Alpha is for. That is what pre-alpha is for. If people wish to defend the decisions that TFP make, at least say "Well it's early access" but I'm still going to counter with the evidence that we've apparently been "on the last alpha" or "close to beta" twice now. :)

 

:) Thats cool. I understand what you are saying now so far as clear communication goes with the customer. That's all really marketing when it comes to conveying a state to the consumer. I can cede that part of this certainly. However, I would maintain my thought that, calling the stage alpha does not actually do anything for the production. If TFP have a workflow then they can technically arrange and name it however they want or not use names at all. At best its just stating round about where they feel they are in the process. The way I personally feel is that Alpha is for building, making systems, connecting things, testing how that works until you get the engine/parts working they way you need it. Beta would then be for the polish and fine tuning of established systems. But again, regardless of what I call these stages, it doesn't change what I am actually doing. I am just doing what needs to be done, or more accurately, what I want to be done. (In this case of course its what TFP want to do)

 

So my thought is, standardizing a general state of the game to the customer is a plus...agreed. But having the name of alpha telling you what you can and can't do as opposed to doing what needs to be done, I am not sold on. I feel TFP have explained to final points that this game is a work in progress and things are going to be added and removed until the mix feels right.

 

They are not mass producing cars on an assembly line like most AAA publishers do with their games...where you have a station for these things to be done, and on down the assembly line it goes from alpha to gold.

 

Think of this more as they are custom building a dream car...restoring an old classic or tricking out a new car of their dreams, (Dragula anyone? :) ) Soooo yeah, they are trying different pieces to make this car the exact car they want, seeing it come together, and taking liberties to go back and change some things to facilitate new stuff they still want to incorporate...there is no assembly line process for this because its a custom or even a "concept car". This is crafting a game...not producing a game. If they are saying they are somewhere near the stage where the engine is good, and all the doors and wheels are on but they need to go with a different hood or alternator or what not...they can do that without having to cause "backup" on an assembly line. It may slow them down from getting to the painting stage, sure...but its not like there is another car right behind it thats needing to be produced and shoved out the door....this is their DREAM game...levity to ignore the label of Alpha because its not following a paint by numbers production...this is custom. Alpha, Beta just doesn't really matter, its attaching arbitrary labels from one system of mass production to the process of hand crafting...its very approximate and that is all. Calling it spaghetti and meatballs as the current state it is in could be accurate, or Frankenstein state...it has no actual bearing on how they are doing it. From where I see it anyway.

 

Again, I see what you are saying about the label not matching the work lineup in what the industry has set forth...but they don't actually have to, or even benefit from a name. TFP = Rebels....and bless them for being so! :)

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Are all of these things like a rule? I've had this conversation in our Discord when people expect me, a modder who is definitely not a professional, expect me to stick to the same rules for my patches and updates. Which I always laugh off because, well, if I am doing the work I get to set the rules, not them.

 

It seems in this day of EA these rules are definitely changing across the board. Looking at Ark and Empyrion alone none of those companies follow ANY of those definitions.

 

Game development is a very different place today than it was 5 years ago and 10 years ago. I think the days of companies conforming to a single standard are definitely in the rearview.

 

I champion this thought! :)

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Having Labels drive action makes no sense to me...having actions create labels makes a little more sense in my opinion. I am not sure what the actual issue is here because I don't get anything on how calling it Alpha or Zeta or anything actually makes it better or worse. Can you help me with that point? How the name affects the actual action?

 

The sequence KhaineGB described is what traditional games developer use and there are good reasons for them using that. Think of it as best practices, at least for them.

 

But the word "traditional" hints at the problem of this way of development IMHO. It is a constrained model, useful when you make a game where you can make all design decisions on the drawing table and do only small refinements after playing the vertical slice.

 

And this old model doesn't work well when you are in Early Access. You can't give players a vertical slice. They have to be able to play the whole game. You have two choices:

 

1) Develop the game to a nearly finished game and only then go into EA. But you can't do that if you need the EA-money to finance the development. Really, TFP couldn't have done it this way and still have produced a game like we get now.

 

2) Built a minimal game, go into EA early and then upgrade, rebuilt and experiment, all in plain view of everyone. This is a different development model, more agile, less waterfall.

 

The words "alpha" and "beta" were defined by those old traditional developers for their development model and might have to be redefined for this type of development.

 

(EDIT: I see you are practically saying the same in post #33977)

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