Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Jackelmyer]

Even you weasel your way into the definition of an investor, another fact is that investments are risky and you could lose 100 percent of your money and get nothing.

 

Well no matter how you weasel your way into a conversation, you're right.

 

Now how do investors react when you don't treat them well? Why not ask Elon Musk? Even that dude learned his lesson.

[RevenantWit]

It's not an investment as much as it is a donation to show support for development. Or at least that's how I see it

[DUST2DEATH]

Well no matter how you weasel your way into a conversation, you're right.

 

Now how do investors react when you don't treat them well? Why not ask Elon Musk? Even that dude learned his lesson.

 

You still arent an investor.

 

The material transaction is you trade money for the software at the time. Thats it. Transaction finished.

 

Any personal investment, be it time/money/whatever after the initial transaction is returned by your own enjoyment of the product.

TFP could pack up today, and never release another update and they still dont owe you anything. Not even a goodbye.

 

None of us here are investors in any sense that demands TFP to listen to us, or hold them accountable to decisions.

 

You keep circling back to it being about personal investment, then you bring up elon which isnt even in the same ball park, let alone suburb, which brings us back to investments of a financial return from profits. Shareholders. etc.

 

You say people should be specific, but you cant even keep your definitions separated. So which are you going with, personal, or financial? either way, in this specific instance, you're still owed 0.

[Darkstardragon]

Yea, over a year is too long for an update. However, we are all going to play and enjoy it because face it, there are no other games like this out there. Ive played most of the survival games on steam and none of them has held my attention like 7dtd. Ark, Conan, Rust, bla bla bla. All uninstalled. DayZ, H1Z1, Scum, boooooo ring. So yea, im pissed that its taken so long, but ready and eager to start on a new 7dtd experience. Jax, never you mind!

[meganoth]

Fallout 3 didn't start with a Kickstarter and an Early Access did it?

 

If so, then yes. Yes you are.

 

(Did you mean "if so, then no. No you are not". ... because Fallout 3 did not kickstart. That would make more sense)

 

You still want to redefine the word "investor" or create a non-legal definition for it, right? So, ok, fine, I accept that in Lingua Jackelmyer buying an EA game is an investment. Can't argue against it as you define the word.

 

The rest of the world still uses the old-fashioned definition, just a warning

[SylenThunder]

...

Not to mention the users who demand we sit down and shut up and take what we're given. This isn't a court of law. No one here gives a flying F about what is LEGALLY OWED.

...

Here's what you were owed. Just FYI in case anyone wondered.

 

https://store.steampowered.com/earlyaccessfaq/

 

Apparently hardly anyone ever reads it, even though Steam really tried to make you read it before purchasing any EA title.

[gampbler]

Out of curiosity, I went through my Steam catalog (187 titles). 7DTD is by far my most played at 951 hours and was bought for $19.99. No Man's Sky at 76 hours at $66.49; Ark Survival 15 hours (I've really tried to get into it!) $19.79; Fallout 4 118 hours at $39.99; H1Z1 at 164 hours at $21.99 and Stranded Deep at 6 hours at $16.99 and Empyrion at 6 hours at $14.99. This isn't even close with any game in my catalog for value received

[Jackelmyer]

Whatever floats your boat guys. 7D2D is far from immune to going belly up. You want to make excuses, not see the people behind the game purchases, ignore people being people, fine. Best of luck with that.

 

I wouldn't still be here bickering with you guys if I didn't love the game. I wouldn't be pointing out this stuff if I didn't love the game.

 

But I know it's not possible show all people things besides what's right in front of their face.

 

Gamble the people element. I'm just more picky on where I gamble I guess.

[uowaep]

Even you weasel your way into the definition of an investor, another fact is that investments are risky and you could lose 100 percent of your money and get nothing.

 

And not be pissed off? I don't even care how long it takes. All I want is updates. Information. Not trolled by the actual company. Even if you just define it as being a backer, you still wouldn't welcome being trolled by the people you're backing. Even if you just bought a product, you wouldn't appreciate being trolled by the company who sold you the product.

[Jackelmyer]

(Did you mean "if so, then no. No you are not". ... because Fallout 3 did not kickstart. That would make more sense)

 

You still want to redefine the word "investor" or create a non-legal definition for it, right? So, ok, fine, I accept that in Lingua Jackelmyer buying an EA game is an investment. Can't argue against it as you define the word.

 

The rest of the world still uses the old-fashioned definition, just a warning

 

And it's not a redefining. It's word structure. Hell, I even provided the rule for the structure... What more do you want?

[uowaep]

You aren't "legally owed" anything but alpha 1. Which you have and have been lucky enough to receive 15 more alphas. Read the fine print next time you buy an EA game.

 

The devs also don't have to tell you anything about the dev process. I mean heck they're more open then most dev teams are, so I'm not really sure what you expect, them to film and upload their every move? Type it all out? You really want time that could be used to get the update out faster wasted on that crap?

 

Oh and by the way it's been said 100 times but somehow you apparently missed like you did all the "emojis are a joke" posts, the engine update added at most a day to the update time, if they haven't updated it we would still be waiting for 17.

 

And if you were "deceived" by joke emojis thats your own fault for jumping to conclusions.

 

I went that far over your head? I won't even bother falling into this trap.

[Drithyl]

And not be pissed off? I don't even care how long it takes. All I want is updates. Information. Not trolled by the actual company. Even if you just define it as being a backer, you still wouldn't welcome being trolled by the people you're backing. Even if you just bought a product, you wouldn't appreciate being trolled by the company who sold you the product.

 

We've been getting information regularly, both in the form of new content sneak peeks and of developers telling us what they've done or fixed today. But that doesn't count, I guess. I don't feel trolled at all, and I'm still baffled by how people can claim that they are being trolled because there are emojis changing on the poll above, where it also clearly states " A17 will be released when the bugs are fixed". But then people are great at biasing themselves and taking things personally, I guess.

[meganoth]

Any personal investment, be it time/money/whatever after the initial transaction is returned by your own enjoyment of the product.

TFP could pack up today, and never release another update and they still dont owe you anything. Not even a goodbye.

 

With a caveat. If we go just by how steam defines EA on their pages then you are right. But in some countries, for example Germany, private customers have special protections in trades, "unexpected" disadvantages put on customers can be sacked by courts.

[Brn2BWyldNSC]

Wow, amazing how much grief going on. I mean seriously people need to get over themselves. I have been a member of this early access game since alpha 10 and over 1000 hours later i've more than got my money's worth from the game. Instead of being so entitled, think of it as money well spent. I mean most games get a few hundred hours of playtime.

[uowaep]

Oh sweetie, can't even begin to refute what I say? Bless your heart for replying at all.

 

No one else misunderstood it.

[JaxTeller718]

That, is absolutely not a view I share.

 

 

Early Access is for developers too broke to continue game development, to develop a game to the potential they're shooting for.

 

Early Access is the 2nd beggar stage after Kickstarter.

 

What you bought was the support of a non-finished idea. What was sold, is your access to that development process in some small degree. Namely, testing out what's built in it's most early stages. And most developers initially want that feedback. And, much like TFP, they get wary of it as the project closes in on it's goal line.

 

As for what's owed and not owed, sorry homie. We are owed an ear at a minimum. Early Access players are investors. Not suckers. To treat them as the latter is a big mistake.

 

If a developer doesn't like that, go be EA and build in a vacuum. Just need the bank roll to do it...

 

Thanks for the LULZ. Now I know I can never take your view on this subject seriously again.

[JaxTeller718]

Yea, over a year is too long for an update. However, we are all going to play and enjoy it because face it, there are no other games like this out there. Ive played most of the survival games on steam and none of them has held my attention like 7dtd. Ark, Conan, Rust, bla bla bla. All uninstalled. DayZ, H1Z1, Scum, boooooo ring. So yea, im pissed that its taken so long, but ready and eager to start on a new 7dtd experience. Jax, never you mind!

 

Haha believe me I'm upset too, but not in a "Pimps are lying to me the world is collapsing" way. I'm upset because I know the update will bring me hundreds of hours of enjoyment with people I love and hold dear. For new experiences, for what it means for my mod and for the excitement surrounding starting that update up for the first time.

 

I'm a good kind of upset, upset only because I want to play it, but also understand that if it takes another month I have 10 other games I can catch up on in the meantime to make the time pass quicker.

 

I guess some could mistakenly call you and i "mature"

[meganoth]

Also by regular, you mean like, once every 2 months? That seems about average.

 

Its easy to miss the infos. Just click on the name of a developer and you will see the posts he's done lately. Or look up the thread Roland collected from all of Fataals postings. If you are a modder you should check out Kinjahuu's latest post about the new buff xml.

[Jackelmyer]

You aren't "legally owed" anything but alpha 1. Which you have and have been lucky enough to receive 15 more alphas. Read the fine print next time you buy an EA game.

 

The devs also don't have to tell you anything about the dev process. I mean heck they're more open then most dev teams are, so I'm not really sure what you expect, them to film and upload their every move? Type it all out? You really want time that could be used to get the update out faster wasted on that crap?

 

Oh and by the way it's been said 100 times but somehow you apparently missed like you did all the "emojis are a joke" posts, the engine update added at most a day to the update time, if they haven't updated it we would still be waiting for 17.

 

And if you were "deceived" by joke emojis thats your own fault for jumping to conclusions.

 

Oh come now "sweetie". Nothing is irrefutable.

 

By legal sense, your correct.

 

From a longevity sense. You're high.

 

Alpha game developers are on limited budgets. If all they want to do is make one game to as good as it gets, fine. No worries.

 

TFP has plans for beyond 7D2D. And you better believe their customer base will remember them.

 

If you want longevity, you bet your ass you owe something to the people that invested in you.

 

If you want to get all rule oriented... Fine. Per Steam:

 

Early Access Overview

 

Early Access is not a pre-purchase

Early Access is not meant to be a form of pre-purchase, but a tool to get your game in front of Steam users and gather feedback while finishing your game.

 

Early Access titles must deliver a playable game or usable software to the customer at the time of purchase, while pre-purchase games are delivered at a future date. Read more about Pre-Purchasing on Steam.

 

* a tool to get your game in front of Steam users and gather feedback while finishing your game.

 

Steam Rules

 

5. Make sure you set expectations properly everywhere you talk about your game. Be transparent with your community. For example, if you know your updates during Early Access will break save files, make sure you tell players up front. And say this everywhere you sell your Steam keys.

 

 

* That... Would include emojis.

 

See sweety. Your not such hot stuff.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Thanks for the LULZ. Now I know I can never take your view on this subject seriously again.

 

Hey if you want to be a butt kisser and support a business not giving a crap for its customers, have at it. Not sure what's in it for you, but enjoy.

[Star69]

I hate to throw a bucket of water on the 'investor' theory but I've mentioned this before: when you 'buy' a game on Steam, you are not buying the game but you are buying access to the game on Steam's library of games. Let's say Steam bans you for whatever reason......you cannot take your games that you 'bought' and go your own way. You cannot say to tfp that you want another copy of the game because Steam took yours. You no longer have access to them. Oh, sure you can pirate them but you cannot have access to the actual game you paid for without access to Steam. In fact, if you read Steams Terms of Service, they spell this out to you. So with this model, there is no possible way of this being an investment. You do not own the game and about 30-40% of what you did pay never went to tfp anyway, it went directly to Steam....it's how Steam makes its money. However, this doesn't make good forum drama so will be ignored in favor of more drama.

[meganoth]

On a side note I'm genuinely curious of your motivation here.

 

Why are you so keen in not acknowledging your own contribution to 7D2D? Or any early access game?

 

Any game that went into early access, never... ever... reaches their end goal without getting properly funded by that early access. They all end in "Well we ran out of money. We really wanted to..."

 

And I'm not even trying to be an ass. I really want to understand. :-/

 

--- TOTALLY MISSED A MAJOR PART OF MY POINT THERE! lol. Oops. ---

 

The english language has words that convey what you wanted to say with "investor": "donor" or "contributor". Lets just use the word "donor" from here on and we are on the same page.

 

With kickstarter most people are part buyer, part donor. We pay in hopes of getting the final product (the buyer aspect). But often we give more money than just the base price (or the base price is artificially high) and we are donors as well. And yes, the developer has every reason to thank kickstarter donors for giving more than they needed to. And even if we just pay the base price, since the risk of failure is high, we could argue that part of the base price is a donation too.

 

With EA we are mostly buyers, we clearly get something in exchange, access to early builds, maybe the game cheaper. Are we still donors as well? Sorry, no, I don't feel like a donor for any of my EA games, neither for 7D2D, Factorio or Slay the Spire. I bought them because I wanted to play them, because I felt they were good enough at that stage and I would even get a series of games instead of just one. It is a bit like an advance sale where I already get the game.

 

Does an EA developer need the money. Sure. Does that make my money a donation? No.

[Jackelmyer]

Literally everything you said is wrong, like really wrong. Also the personal forums of the pimps don't need to abide my steam rules, steam cant control other websites.

 

Well stated. Great lack of points. And.. your last actually a violation of Steam Rule #5. Thanks.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

The english language has words that convey what you wanted to say with "investor": "donor" or "contributor". Lets just use the word "donor" from here on and we are on the same page.

 

With kickstarter most people are part buyer, part donor. We pay in hopes of getting the final product (the buyer aspect). But often we give more money than just the base price (or the base price is artificially high) and we are donors as well. And yes, the developer has every reason to thank kickstarter donors for giving more than they needed to. And even if we just pay the base price, since the risk of failure is high, we could argue that part of the base price is a donation too.

 

With EA we are mostly buyers, we clearly get something in exchange, access to early builds, maybe the game cheaper. Are we still donors as well? Sorry, no, I don't feel like a donor for any of my EA games, neither for 7D2D, Factorio or Slay the Spire. I bought them because I wanted to play them, because I felt they were good enough at that stage and I would even get a series of games instead of just one. It is a bit like an advance sale where I already get the game.

 

Does an EA developer need the money. Sure. Does that make my money a donation? No.

 

Donor, great choice. Though Don did not have the Or engineer suffix rule appended to it. Invest... Did. Though so did contribute. Huh.

 

I never stated EA was in the same boat. I said if you don't want to ask for cash from the general public, go be EA.

[BoxFullOfBoxes]

Yea what he was saying is that an investment return could be something other than money. Not that hard to figure out.

 

"Apologies for not assuming you could extend the definition from it's base word..."

By not explaining his intended meaning of the word "investor" thoroughly, he *was* assuming we could "extend" (extrapolate?) the definition from *its*(not *it's*) base word.

 

"The joy of *******the******* english my friend..."

 

My word these forum plebs lmao!

[Gazz]

One trend I have noticed lately in a LOT of EA titles is that gamers think if they shout long enough devs are supposed to listen.

People will never understand that there are times to listen and times to get ♥♥♥♥ done. =P

 

The further a project gets into development the less listening is useful to the project.

 

 

Oh come now "sweetie". Nothing is irrefutable.

It is if you use "irrefutable". Or if you say it three times. Or if you use all caps.

[meganoth]

Steam Rules

 

5. Make sure you set expectations properly everywhere you talk about your game. Be transparent with your community. For example, if you know your updates during Early Access will break save files, make sure you tell players up front. And say this everywhere you sell your Steam keys.

 

 

* That... Would include emojis.

 

Emojis breaking save files confirmed.