Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Crater Creator]

I'm talking practically blind. Like I need to be 5 meters in front of their face. That is a bug.

 

Forgive me, but I can’t remember this being answered... what about zombies sensing players through smell? Is this on the table for A17 or not?

[The Batman]

Forgive me, but I can’t remember this being answered... what about zombies sensing players through smell? Is this on the table for A17 or not?

 

Smell has been put on hold for so far. All noses of the zombies have been cut off. Meat will no longer smell, black particle cannons will fire non stop to stop the spread of any scent.

[Gnomaana]

Okay, links added. It does mess with the colors, though.

 

Edit: Which I did to improve clarity, not generate more conspiracy theories about what's going on up there.

 

Almost guarantee you will accomplish both. Lol

[The Gronk]

Are you talking about Chunk loading or chunk generation? Generation and loading are two separate issues. Everything I've read about the new RWG generation, the whole map is pre-generated. The fact that, in RWG prior to A17, generation and loading weren't completely separate was the problem they tried to fix with the change. Navezgane was pre-generated and loaded much smoother. In RWG, chunks were generated(at least somehwhat) as they loaded which caused the extremely slow load times. Especially on servers with people running every which way.

 

A dev may correct me but that is how I understood that change when it was first brought up.

 

The whole RWG map is most certainly not entirely pregenerated and neither is the Nave map. Only certain parts which can be done in a reasonable amount of time and a reasonable amount of disk space are pregenerated.

 

Look at the maths, if you take one block as a bit, literally 1 or 0, you'd likely run out of disk space long before you generated every block on a reasonably sized map. Now consider that every block has a lot of data associated with it such as ID and Health, you begin to see the problem.

[Crater Creator]

Well, yeah, if you don't use sparse matrices or data compression or whatever other tricks. But the map is like 45% air and 45% stone... surely there are savings to be had. And they did cut it down to 8 km for a reason.

[Ghostsniper343]

Smell has been put on hold for so far. All noses of the zombies have been cut off. Meat will no longer smell, black particle cannons will fire non stop to stop the spread of any scent.

 

In short, every survivor is carrying an ozonics machine on his belt.

 

 

https://www.ozonicshunting.com/products

[KingSlayerGM]

The whole RWG map is most certainly not entirely pregenerated and neither is the Nave map. Only certain parts which can be done in a reasonable amount of time and a reasonable amount of disk space are pregenerated.

 

Look at the maths, if you take one block as a bit, literally 1 or 0, you'd likely run out of disk space long before you generated every block on a reasonably sized map. Now consider that every block has a lot of data associated with it such as ID and Health, you begin to see the problem.

 

Yes, not everything can be stored on your computer. Sure enough TFP use a variation of the Region File Format of Minecraft. You can have a look here https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Region_file_format.

 

Still, generation and loading are different things and I believe Gnomaana is right.

[The Gronk]

Well, yeah, if you don't use sparse matrices or data compression or whatever other tricks. But the map is like 45% air and 45% stone... surely there are savings to be had. And they did cut it down to 8 km for a reason.

 

Some sort of octree storage system would help (if it hasn't been used already) but compression methods require time to compress and decompress.

 

The map size was reduced to allow for the pregeneration of towns and roads, imagine how long it would take to generate _every_ block on the map. I only have one lifetime and I'm not sure I want to spend it watching a loading bar :-)

[The Gronk]

Yes, not everything can be stored on your computer. Sure enough TFP use a variation of the Region File Format of Minecraft. You can have a look here https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Region_file_format.

 

Still, generation and loading are different things and I believe Gnomaana is right.

 

Due to a misunderstanding when it was announced we questioned this already. Individual blocks are definitely not pre-generated due to time constraints.

[meganoth]

As stupid and backwards and as lazy as removing loot cause tfp are to lazy to actually fix the issues they just remove it.

 

Too much loot from the wrong source IS the issue.

 

 

...

 

The game is good. There is a great thread outlining the main desires of PvP players. https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?59401-quot-The-PvP-Update-quot Most of the things are very minor changes. I would even simplify the list to a few very simple points:

 

-Add more functionality / options to land claim blocks

-Increase sound radii to encourage players to hunt each other

-Smaller maps to encourage conflict

-Reduce weapon damage significantly to prevent random one-shot kills

-Add hacking prevention measures, hackers pinpointing your location, your bedroll, or flying and teleporting around with infinite rapid dynamite hands instantly destroying weeks of hard work is not fun

-Add a way either for new players to catch up to some sort of "server average" or set some sort of ultimate goal that a single player (or group) can achieve that would result in a win, a wipe, and a reset. Maybe that wouldn't be the right implementation but there needs to be a way to breathe new life into PvP constantly. Co-op can live forever by its very nature, but PvP is like a blossoming cherry tree - very ephemeral. It needs help to stop one player or group from establishing such dominance that it destroys a server. That or admins will just have to take matters into their own hands and wipe after every 500-1000 days or so.

 

Honestly other than that, PvP is fine as it is. I don't even ask anything to be changed to benefit PvP at the detriment of PvE. I just ask that the PvP community not be lumped in with bloom when you guys are having a disrespect war with each other.

 

Points 1,2,4, ok.

 

Smaller maps is already possible in RWG-mixer xml. I assume you need it in the options because of the old "modded category of servers bad" problem?

 

Hacking prevention measures (and you definitely know this) is a bottomless sink of developer time. The only really effective measure is to move all the calculations and checks to the server, if the game doesn't do this already it is a major rework. Much less effective measures on the client are like virus-scanners, always in a race with the cheats and always loosing. NOT a minor change by a mile

 

The way to allow new players to catch up or an ultimate goal doesn't sound minor either. TFP already leaves out SP/coop end game features because of limited resources, I don't see PvP end game easier to "breathe new life into"

[Melthe]

Thanks Roland!

 

For your reply about the Shotgun Blueprint.

[bloom_meister]

Damage values aside, how would people feel about a .50cal sniper rifle with a range of 100-120m? (whatever it is right now)

How would that make any kind of sense?

 

It's already a stretch with the current rifles in the game and if you wanted to render the required voxel world up to say 400m, you'd get 1/16th of the FPS.

So below 4 FPS if you would normally have 60.

 

Its not a one or the other question Gazz, we could have the upped damage and keep the scope/zoom in the limits of current gameplay so as not to affect fps, a compromise it think most would find acceptable. You could, separately, have draw distance as a server option.

[toores]

I'm seeing... surprisingly little blowback to this, actually. But I know some have advocated for the game to stay in alpha basically forever, and to them I say don't despair. We're all excited about what more will come to 7 Days to Die because that's the game we've seen, played, and identified with TFP. But a time will come when a video for their next game has just come out, and our imaginations will be running just as wild.

 

I've had no problem with alpha as we get more content but at one point beta would be nice to get some features fleshed out. I totally expect to get more electricity stuff to increase the quality of life in my base for example

[sillls]

You can backup and sidestep like normal. You can do it while running, but the faster movement of the run applies to just the forward direction.

 

I just beat down several businessman zombies with my fists. Not that hard. I maybe got hit once or twice.

 

That works well. But use a shovel next time.

[Crater Creator]

Some sort of octree storage system would help (if it hasn't been used already) but compression methods require time to compress and decompress.

 

The map size was reduced to allow for the pregeneration of towns and roads, imagine how long it would take to generate _every_ block on the map. I only have one lifetime and I'm not sure I want to spend it watching a loading bar :-)

 

You can pregenerate towns and roads in A16 using the map previewer. Eyeballing it, I don’t think a preview size of 5 is any smaller than the 8 km maps we’ll have in A17, and it still doesn’t take that long to generate. So I guess I don’t know what A17 is doing in those 5-10 minutes that takes so long, if it’s not generating the contents of the chunks on a block by block basis. In the case of Navezgane, where the terrain isn’t procedurally generated, how the heck does it know what block goes where if the blocks aren’t remembered in a big file somewhere?

[Anabella]

@MadMole get these when they come out. Then you can practice up and do that pvp battle with bloom.

 

https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/30/hp-thermoelectric-cooling-headset/

 

Cooling gaming headset will available in October.

[Tin]

You can backup and sidestep like normal. You can do it while running, but the faster movement of the run applies to just the forward direction.

 

I just beat down several businessman zombies with my fists. Not that hard. I maybe got hit once or twice.

 

You beat down zombies with your fist? Am I the only one who sees this as a slight issue? Hope that gets changed at some point.

I can see using your fists to stagger or knockdown a zed, to give you room to escape or give you time to find or grab a weapon but to take them out?

[The Gronk]

You can pregenerate towns and roads in A16 using the map previewer. Eyeballing it, I don’t think a preview size of 5 is any smaller than the 8 km maps we’ll have in A17, and it still doesn’t take that long to generate. So I guess I don’t know what A17 is doing in those 5-10 minutes that takes so long, if it’s not generating the contents of the chunks on a block by block basis. In the case of Navezgane, where the terrain isn’t procedurally generated, how the heck does it know what block goes where if the blocks aren’t remembered in a big file somewhere?

 

Okay, here we go...

 

Procedurally generated towns require a lot of time, each building must be placed in accordance with certain rules and if a building doesn't fit it must be discarded and another one tried with the eventual results written (block by block) to a file. The map previewer doesn't need to write the data to a chunk before displaying it, they're two entirely separate systems working from a single generation algorithm.

 

Roads are likely based on a bezier curve system which also requires generating and adjusting according to underlying terrain and have the same data storage problems as buildings.

 

The map previewer doesn't generate every block, what's more likely to happen is that an individual sample surface block is generated to create a vertex on the custom low poly terrain mesh.

 

The terrain in Nave has a custom system to generate blocks using heightmaps and other such gubbins, it still needs to generate individual blocks at runtime according to these rules.

[Melthe]

Same purpose as the minibike chassis. None. Old items that need to be removed.

 

Thanks Faatal

[The Gronk]

You beat down zombies with your fist? Am I the only one who sees this as a slight issue? Hope that gets changed at some point.

I can see using your fists to stagger or knockdown a zed, to give you room to escape or give you time to find or grab a weapon but to take them out?

 

It's difficult, but not impossible, to kill a man with your bare hands. I don't see why zombies should be any different.

[eidobunny]

Too much loot from the wrong source IS the issue.

 

 

 

Points 1,2,4, ok.

 

Smaller maps is already possible in RWG-mixer xml. I assume you need it in the options because of the old "modded category of servers bad" problem?

 

Hacking prevention measures (and you definitely know this) is a bottomless sink of developer time. The only really effective measure is to move all the calculations and checks to the server, if the game doesn't do this already it is a major rework. Much less effective measures on the client are like virus-scanners, always in a race with the cheats and always loosing. NOT a minor change by a mile

 

The way to allow new players to catch up or an ultimate goal doesn't sound minor either. TFP already leaves out SP/coop end game features because of limited resources, I don't see PvP end game easier to "breathe new life into"

 

Re: map size, yes to everything. I'm not saying every rwg map would need to be small, but having the option there would be helpful to the PvP community. I'm pretty sure this is already in as of A17 so I'm not really worried about it, just pointing it out.

 

Re: hacking, for sure. It's not easy, but it's also the #1 problem with the game in public servers, especially PvP but coop as well.

 

Re: endgame, yeah I was just making random suggestions. The simplest course of action is to just have recurring wipes done by the server admins. It would be even better if it was on a global schedule across all servers (mimicking the way everyone wipes when a new update drops) but of course then you screw around with the autonomy of server owners and that's bad. Alternatively you could have a "global wipe" option, and servers can choose whether or not to participate in the global wipe schedule. Just thinking out loud really about possible ways we could keep it alive outside of new patches.

[4sheetzngeegles]

You can pregenerate towns and roads in A16 using the map previewer. Eyeballing it, I don’t think a preview size of 5 is any smaller than the 8 km maps we’ll have in A17, and it still doesn’t take that long to generate. So I guess I don’t know what A17 is doing in those 5-10 minutes that takes so long, if it’s not generating the contents of the chunks on a block by block basis. In the case of Navezgane, where the terrain isn’t procedurally generated, how the heck does it know what block goes where if the blocks aren’t remembered in a big file somewhere?

 

In previewer

render cells matrix

0 = 1

1 = 9 3x3

2 = 25 5x5

3 = 49 7x7

4 = 81 9x9

5 = 144 12x12

 

if rwg cell is 1800 x 12 = 21600 meters total

 

I think Nav cells are 512x512 presently

look in the 7dtd world nav folder has 64 completed region files

In rwg before moving around you have 144 indexes but no region files

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think the conversion of this to nav fomat is what they are doing

If im way off Ken please tell me

[Qyzer]

Not a fan of the spawn timer being tied to loot timer idea..

 

I think 'eventually' we as players, should be able to adjust the respawn rates of:

Biome/Poi/Loot, separately in the settings w/o needing to manually edit the xml.

...

 

Indeed, my personal preference is for daily or higher Z respawns and no loot respawn. I can and have modded the Z spawn rates, but it would be nice to have an easier option.

 

My biggest wish is to have a better control of the quantity of spawned cities and towns. ...

Indeed, right now I've just had to be an avid appreciator and apprentice of Tins work.

 

As far as glue goes, I think it’s time for a recipe change anyway. Hide glue is (relatively) easy to make and is really what we should have been making already. You use scraps of animal hide and boil them down. Here’s how to do it: http://www.practicalprimitive.com/skillofthemonth/hideglue.html

 

Agreed. As much as I overall love this game, one of the things I really dislike is the idea you would ever use infected human/Z body parts for anything in the game. I'd like to see bones, fat, and rotten meat only have animal sources (and yes I do mod this in my own games, but it bugs me when I play with others on servers who don't).

 

I'm hoping they drop them from the much lower Z loot (which I totally support for all the various reasons supporters have listed).

 

You can simply ignore them^^

Its the same like a Death is Death mode on Singleplayer, no need, not that hard to delete a savegame.

 

While I mostly agree, there are still indestructible POIs scattered through the world that are harder to ignore. I can mod them out, but I think " alone in the world" could be a valid non-mod option for those less inclined to mod, at least eventually.

 

Damage values aside, how would people feel about a .50cal sniper rifle with a range of 100-120m? (whatever it is right now)

How would that make any kind of sense?

...

 

I modded in one with as close as I could guess damage values (using things like muzzle energy and such as a basis) and had tons of fun using it for deconstruction. It was a bit overkill on Zs but it's a fun way to clear a poi (from the map :-) )

[Marinxar]

Someone released the Kraken prematurely

 

[Qyzer]

That works well. But use a shovel next time.

 

I've been using the shovels as the model for spears I've modded into the game for a while now. I think it's certainly the best choice for an XML only mod version.