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Developer Discussions: Alpha 17


Roland

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17  

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  1. 1. Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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btw Gnomaana I never said you hated PvP, I said everyone here hates PvP. Every time PvP is mentioned a million people come out of the woodwork with pitchforks to shout down the PvPer and cite the developers saying it's designed as a coop game for up to 8 players.

 

For sure I'm not making any claims there. In fact I could probably figure out myself how many people are playing SP. I'm sure the majority of people play SP. That's not what I was getting at. I just don't want my community to be made to feel extremely small and insignificant because when I hop on and see almost half of the active servers with PvP tags it's like, I can plainly see we're not so small to be made to feel like some worthless speck in the community.

 

Leaving aside your "everyone" exaggeration, I don't think that it is hate PVP so much as dislike PVP for this game. (That may be what you meant anyway.) Maybe they think that because that's not their preference for this game, or maybe because that is what TFP has stated. In the end, that is where the argument stops for me: what TFP intends (if you couldn't tell). I don't see that pleading with them does much, if any, good. I also don't see the position of "that may not be what you intend but it's what we have used it for" being very strong. I mean, lots of people find alternate uses for things, but that doesn't mean that the makers should change their product to cater to those alternate uses (even if the alternate uses have gone mainstream). If the maker wants to capitalize on that and make some more money, then fine. If not, oh well. Somebody else can do it.

 

To your other point, I want to say (gently, Anabella) that your community of PVPers may be small and insignificant. Your participation in it and the numbers you see may make it seem significant even though it isn't. Just like a neighborhood full of similar people might think that there are a lot of them in the town even when they actually are the minority. *shrug* That doesn't mean that the community is worth less, but it probably is not the target demographic. TFP has no responsibility to cater to every demographic.

 

I have listened to you for a couple days now. Bullying and putting peoples ideas down. Acting like you speak for TFP. They are very capable of speaking for themselves and maybe....just maybe you could give it a break. You want to say what you like in a game that is fine. We can respect what you like and how you want to play but the constantly putting down others is getting old.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. Feel free to PM the offending posts to me in order to bring them to my attention. The one you linked doesn't fit your description, as far as I can tell. I will say that I don't think my posts are bullying, nor do I think that I'm putting down ideas. (Most of the things I read are not "ideas" but complaints of dislike.) Usually, I'm trying to bring some realism and logic to the situation which seriously lacks it...and my response usually is mixed with some condescension. The doomsaying, overreacting, and sensational misinterpretation wear on me.

 

I don't speak for TFP, but I'm pretty good at repeating what they have said. I remarked somewhere that Roland must have a rolodex of standard replies with how often he has to repeat the same arguments. I figure the more often I can get those out there to counter the complaints, the less likely they are to flare outward. Maybe that doesn't work. It's probably better just to ignore the complaining and not give it any oxygen at all.

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Thats funny man, you're sure you could destroy me in any game based upon....? your internet ego? I mean really, talk about taking criticism to heart...next thing you'll be telling me your dad is bigger than my dad...and on that topic I have been gaming longer than you've been living, just saying!

 

My point, which you missed, is that you should use someone who is familiar with the game, perhaps Roland as he has played a lot of A17 as it develops, further that the videos are structured to show what it is you want to show the audience so that your message comes across clearly and informs people on the topic you want to cover. You're a dev, you dont 'need' to be good at the game, stop over reacting and get it ready for shipping.

 

As for the player base i would love to see where you get your stats from as all the top servers by population on the server browser are PvP. The majority? no way, a big minority? definitely, a few years ago when there was a debate about pvp numbers someone actually went and counted all players on the server browser by game type (pve v pvp) and it was, from memory, around 15%. Now yes, I know that doesn't include the many many people playing solo or on private servers but still, 1%? no.

 

Bloom, you remind me of someone.. I have a cousin who criticizes everyone and he waits for them to respond emotionally, then he criticizes that. You don't speak for the rest us, so stop trying to sounds like you do. I'm sure you have you own game that we can check out right?

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if the game is not PVP then why we have achievment that saying kill 250 players i love PVP and it s the only reason i am playing 7D2D i think PVP should get some love from update and it did in a none direct way A16 was mainly PVP in my prespective who would need a camera and turrets and traps for a zombies LMAO

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Well the PvP base is definitely a minority but the amount who play it is much higher than that. No matter the play-style you have to contend with zombies but the reason for PvP is not because we seek a run-n-gun Halo/CoD/Quake/CS whatever style; it is because after a point the zombies and environment pose no challenge.

 

This is not a fault I find with the game; every game I have played the AI/Comp opponent...if you will... becomes predictable as there is/are always pattern(s).

 

When I PvP it is because I seek a challenge against a thinking opponent; someone who can adapt and challenge me in ways the AI cannot...that's it! In Multiplayer I see interaction with more than one player; this is why you see co-op as an option in many games alongside multiplayer.

 

The best thing any game can do is to set the world out and let the experience be as organic as possible. A multiplayer world is set and players can co-op or not, PvP or not. Looking at the PvP aspect does not hurt the game; rather, it adds to everyone's experience. They don't HAVE to PvP...the server rules and bot managers can dictate. But the possibility can only enhance their experience and for those who wish to PvP primarily they will still have to contend with zombies...don't worry about that.

 

But there is nothing wrong with trying to make this a more feasible aspect of gameplay because it is merely an aspect; it does not change the game fundamentally.

 

Stage 1 - spawn in do the tasks find the trader survive versus the environment

Stage 2 contend with environment as well as zombies now

Stage 3 all of the above and begin preparations for zombie attacks with your base as you acquire resources.

 

It's always the same. And people can log out for horde night....you can't "force" anyone to do anything despite your vision. Just create the environment and let the experience be organic.

 

And as far as destroying people in any game I noticed you listed FPS games. I attended the PGL where Thresh was the guest for the Quake 2 winner to compete in Pong with as I was there for the RTS Total annihilation. If you want to bring up Red alert or Total annihilation I'll most likely do the destroying as I was the #1 ranked player in the world for a yr and a half in TA. Top Ten Red alert and our team held the #1 ranking briefly..heh.

 

You think of PvP in terms on Quake or Counterstrike...FPS games. And while the game is most certainly FPS it plays more like a RTS. YOu acquire resources over a time period and then endure an assault or you engage in one. We don't have loadouts and the maps are huge.

 

We seek resource deposits to acquire resources to build bases and then upgrade our defenses and eventually prepare for the offensive if we choose. This is what is done in RTS games...and styles differ.

 

In 7DTD I PvP because I want a thinking opponent. I start like anyone else; I acquire resources and build myself up to survive the environment and set a place to store my resources. This storage needs defending; however, I do not seek to defend myself from zombies...turning off forges, tunneling at bedrock, and movement are how I defend. If you pardon the pun my playstyle renders the zombies "non-entities" unless I wish to raise my rifle skill and get kills/exp/loot. The more kills leads to higher gamestages and better loot.

 

But the acquisition is all in preparation for engaging my opponent and if you think bout turn-based strategy...that is this game too. We can all play at the same time as a RTS... but as we have different real-life schedules it becomes turn-based. People will raid your base or set the stage when you are offline; I know players wait until I log before venturing into certain cities/areas.

 

Mines are not for Zombies... there are more efficient ways to kill them.

 

PVP in this game is rarely a run and gun encounter. Usually it is turn-based as your PvP becomes you versus their base or it is a sniper battle.

 

Quit pigeonholing PvP into a Counter Strike corner as it is not that.

 

But I'm up for a challenge on my server or the RTS world.

 

http://igl.net/total/ Hallf of fame

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25011[/ATTACH]

 

Here is a RL Video of horde night coming to my house.

 

 

What an excellent summary of how 7dtd pvp is different

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This is an interesting concept. Have you run across similar examples?

 

 

No, but I will try to check out a few of the videos recommended to me. Somehow, out of boredom, I have watched a few videos of A German visiting The USA for the first time, or A girl from Ireland Came to America for the first time. Or What do British think Southern words mean. What do Asian girls think of BBQ. Some are funny.

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i don t know why TFP are keep ignoring the fact that PVP can be such a successful project most of the game nowadays are battleroyal i don t mean that the game should focus 100% on PVP but only 20 % because i don t know where are the stats that saying that PVP players are only 1% in the community because i don t believe that at all

if you navigate in the server list you find a huge amount of full PVP server list

i am afraid that in the future TFP will do things that could harm PVP player like removing an LCBs who knows right .... just keep in mind that PVP can have such a good potential i ve done a lot of talking about PVP and how it can improved every one is free of what he can play PVP or PVE or SP but we shouldn t completly ignore us

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Getting yourself killed could count...

 

nope it won t count

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Well, I sorta assumed I had when I changed my avatar to the boxers :)

 

And pushing for the BBQ. Meat's not properly cooked unless it's been kissed by flame

 

LOL I thought that...but I didn't want to put words in your mouth...or anywhere for that matter. Damn keyboard. Ha! I AM however so happy to have you onboard!

 

Oh...also...BBQ statement...100% support! :D

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You have left the core game play so incredibly broken for over three years, it would be impossible to ever operate a PVP server long term. I know because I helped run them and gave operators fixes. I am one of the coders for ServerTools who is fixing and making features you guys refuse to do after three years. When the populations went down, the PVP was still full but I have had friends quitting for years as they were tired of no PVP focus and the single player was broken. They were falling through the world for three years solid.

 

You added minibikes that could not hold items for over a year without falling out or the bike itself disappearing.

 

What kind of PVP would you expect when single player is just barely functional. If you build it they will come. You have adamantly fought PVP in this game and as such, you have little to no PVP base which is what keeps any game going for years. What single player game stays in the minds for years since the days of Fallout?

 

If you want to make a single player game, take the multiplayer off the steam page. You have stated you have not been developing the multiplayer for years[citation needed]. You also state the game can only support 8 people. I have tried it and the game lags to the point where you can not play. None of this makes any sense after three years.

 

If a17 is your final go before beta, I hope its the greatest thing you have ever made with little to no bugs or the servers will not even reopen. There are 15 PVP servers that shutdown waiting for the game to develop. I am in touch with them all and they gave up waiting for this to be developed past a buggy minecraft mod.

 

Maybe you have never done your own numbers before but our PVP server had 1/6th of your entire user base play on it or enter at the very least. 15 of the top PVP servers that all gave up would make up over 30% of your users then.

 

This is not to nit pick, it is to shake you awake. Stop telling people how to f'ing enjoy it. They have found out they like multiplayer and they like PVP. Support the weirdos who gave you millions and are still waiting to not fall through the world.

If they wanted to use the game as a door stop and loved doing so, support it! What are you always fighting against Moley?

 

Hi Obsessive, good to see you man.

 

The problem with TFP and PvP has 2 key elements that are nothing to do with the many true and correct things you point out.

 

1. Madmole is anti pvp - After years of watching him post i still don't know why, but he is, his ''vision'' is blinkered by what he wants to design but more importantly 'how' he wants people to play. Now sure, its his game and we have to respect that but you really would think that at some point he would wake up and think ''all the most succesfully MP games in the world include or are soley based on PVP (enter various MP PVP games here, its a big list). So why not stop actively dissing PVP players and just support it? More people would play, for longer, revenue would increase and very importantly....

 

...2. The PVE aspects of the game would not be impacted. And this is the second element, pvp is always positioned as taking away dev time from pve and this is a lie that the more fanatical pve players have come to unthinkingly beleive.

 

The absolute opposite is actually true, let me give you some examples:

 

a. 4 new guns are introduced, result? both pve and pvp players are happy because now they have more to do, collect, use. Any balance issues with the new guns (if there are any) won't affect pve players as they THEY DONT SHOOT EACH OTHER

b. 3 new armour sets are introduced, result? both pve and pvp players are happy because now they have more to do, collect, use. Any balance issues with the new armours (if there are any) won't affect pve players as they THEY DONT SHOOT EACH OTHER and both sets of players get the advantages of the new armour vs the zombies

c. A new super tough block above stainless steel is introduced, result? pve players have a new end tier to strive for to build their uber fortresses and pvp players get a new end tier block to strive for to protect their bases from other players

 

You see almost any new thing that is introduced with either benefit both player types equally or not impact pve players in a negative way and yet this myth that adding some new things pvp players would like somehow screws over pve players still exists because it is fed by a very poor use of language by the devs.

 

Its simply not true.

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Hi Madmole!

 

What are the chances of seeing another video of your gameplay of A17 "Pre-Experimental" this coming weekend? The first one was awesome and we need more!

 

Oops! Forgot that it's labor day weekend so, you guys should take a break... Did I really say that? :smile-new:

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Lets see if there is any interest in another topic...

 

Who else plans on skipping them stream event (i want to discover A17e for myself).

That's my plan too. I don't plan on watching any streamers until I have about 40 or 50 hours in A17 myself

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Hi Obsessive, good to see you man.

 

The problem with TFP and PvP has 2 key elements that are nothing to do with the many true and correct things you point out.

 

1. Madmole is anti pvp - After years of watching him post i still don't know why, but he is, his ''vision'' is blinkered by what he wants to design but more importantly 'how' he wants people to play. Now sure, its his game and we have to respect that but you really would think that at some point he would wake up and think ''all the most succesfully MP games in the world include or are soley based on PVP (enter various MP PVP games here, its a big list). So why not stop actively dissing PVP players and just support it? More people would play, for longer, revenue would increase and very importantly....

 

...2. The PVE aspects of the game would not be impacted. And this is the second element, pvp is always positioned as taking away dev time from pve and this is a lie that the more fanatical pve players have come to unthinkingly beleive.

 

The absolute opposite is actually true, let me give you some examples:

 

a. 4 new guns are introduced, result? both pve and pvp players are happy because now they have more to do, collect, use. Any balance issues with the new guns (if there are any) won't affect pve players as they THEY DONT SHOOT EACH OTHER

b. 3 new armour sets are introduced, result? both pve and pvp players are happy because now they have more to do, collect, use. Any balance issues with the new armours (if there are any) won't affect pve players as they THEY DONT SHOOT EACH OTHER and both sets of players get the advantages of the new armour vs the zombies

c. A new super tough block above stainless steel is introduced, result? pve players have a new end tier to strive for to build their uber fortresses and pvp players get a new end tier block to strive for to protect their bases from other players

 

You see almost any new thing that is introduced with either benefit both player types equally or not impact pve players in a negative way and yet this myth that adding some new things pvp players would like somehow screws over pve players still exists because it is fed by a very poor use of language by the devs.

 

Its simply not true.

 

...Are you ok? :)

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You're forgetting about the thousands of people playing PvP by themselves privately....;)

 

But to be serious, all this back and forth about the actual percentage of PvP is irrelevant. The key here is that in the mind of the man responsible for putting out the game, PvP is essentially 1% and single player and MP Cooperative is 99% of what he feels is important for this game. Who cares what the actual tallies are. The developers are making this into a Single Player game first and foremost and a PVE game among friends and family second and any features that happen to benefit PvP are completely coincidental. Even if you could prove that PvP was actually 20% it wouldn't matter in regards to Madmole's approach in developing the game. He decided long ago that for this game PvP would be a non-factor. That's the actual significance of him saying 1%. And with that attitude it wouldn't surprise me if the current percentage really was 1% at this point as Cup's quick ratio seemed to signify.

 

Any features that would benefit SP and PVE even if it is at the expense and to the detriment of PVP only give the devs 1% pause before they are added with 99% confidence that it is the right thing to do.

 

Nobody needs to lecture them or help them understand the popularity of PvP or exactly how much more money they would make if this game focused on PvP or how much more longevity this game would have thanks to PvP. They've considered it all and rejected it. They have a vision for what they want this game to be and they have the means to do it. Maybe if the game wasn't so popular as it is they might feel a bit of pressure to listen to the advice to make this game just like every other similar MP game on the market and focus on PVP first. But they don't have to do that because they have succeeded to the point that they can make this game be whatever they want it to be without worry.

 

If they ever decide to take the core of what they have created here and put out a separate product that is focused on PvP I think that would be fantastic. Contrary to some accusations I don't hate PvP. I just am so thankful that there is at least one game like this on the market that has kept Single Player as its primary focus. I would think that you guys in the "1%" would be satisfied with the fact that 99% of games on the market are designed with you as their primary target. You can let us have this one.

 

 

Thanks for clarification, so it is indeed how the other pvpers have stated, and i'll reiterate; "no, ♥♥♥♥ you, you don't matter" Glad to know. I will not be a walking advertisement for this game anymore, sheesh.

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Hi Obsessive, good to see you man.

 

The problem with TFP and PvP has 2 key elements that are nothing to do with the many true and correct things you point out.

 

1. Madmole is anti pvp - After years of watching him post i still don't know why, but he is, his ''vision'' is blinkered by what he wants to design but more importantly 'how' he wants people to play. Now sure, its his game and we have to respect that but you really would think that at some point he would wake up and think ''all the most succesfully MP games in the world include or are soley based on PVP (enter various MP PVP games here, its a big list). So why not stop actively dissing PVP players and just support it? More people would play, for longer, revenue would increase and very importantly....

 

...2. The PVE aspects of the game would not be impacted. And this is the second element, pvp is always positioned as taking away dev time from pve and this is a lie that the more fanatical pve players have come to unthinkingly beleive.

 

The absolute opposite is actually true, let me give you some examples:

 

a. 4 new guns are introduced, result? both pve and pvp players are happy because now they have more to do, collect, use. Any balance issues with the new guns (if there are any) won't affect pve players as they THEY DONT SHOOT EACH OTHER

b. 3 new armour sets are introduced, result? both pve and pvp players are happy because now they have more to do, collect, use. Any balance issues with the new armours (if there are any) won't affect pve players as they THEY DONT SHOOT EACH OTHER and both sets of players get the advantages of the new armour vs the zombies

c. A new super tough block above stainless steel is introduced, result? pve players have a new end tier to strive for to build their uber fortresses and pvp players get a new end tier block to strive for to protect their bases from other players

 

You see almost any new thing that is introduced with either benefit both player types equally or not impact pve players in a negative way and yet this myth that adding some new things pvp players would like somehow screws over pve players still exists because it is fed by a very poor use of language by the devs.

 

Its simply not true.

 

OC hello it s me Salim in the game i see your point and saw the pain of the admins when they where trying to fix the bike that were in the game for 3 years without getting fixed until now *hopefully* until it got removed from the server instead creating a teleporting system that alow you to travel from one place to another

i am pvp player and i enjoy more then PVE so much more the feeling of building the perfect base that can be so hard to raid is a challange that we enjoy as PVP player that fact that there is a threat outside your safe and sound base is nothing like PVE because any moment you can be killed not by a zombie running in circles or a horde dying in spikes but too a person just like you who wanna take your loot and fell your pain in a no harmfull way

7D2D never ment to be PVP game i get it but after all the player base that went into it and the thousands of our sepnt on the game they don t deserver just like hey guys we hear you and we are working on it not like this is SP game never meant for PVP like why?

 

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Roland,

 

Apologies if this has been answered, I know its been asked a ton but I missed the response if there was one and now A17 is so close this should be easy.

 

Simple question, how many people can the jeep carry, 1,2,3 or 4.

 

Simple answer appreciated.

 

i guess only the driver

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What im gathering is that we are going to be constantly ignored regardless, and for that, this game just flops out big time for me. Enough so i'm just going to stop advertising it to my competitive friends. Catering is not what I want; but design flaws of prolonged heavy load map use. Its just ridiculous that brass still isnt craftable [google how brass is made, its not hard; we make steel for godsake.] OR corn glue, or a myriad of other things. But instead of listening, the dearth of yes men take up arms because "no! not the evil pvpers!"

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Roland,

 

Apologies if this has been answered, I know its been asked a ton but I missed the response if there was one and now A17 is so close this should be easy.

 

Simple question, how many people can the jeep carry, 1,2,3 or 4.

 

Simple answer appreciated.

 

Depends on your definition of "people". And where.

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What im gathering is that we are going to be constantly ignored regardless, and for that, this game just flops out big time for me. Enough so i'm just going to stop advertising it to my competitive friends. Catering is not what I want; but design flaws of prolonged heavy load map use. Its just ridiculous that brass still isnt craftable [google how brass is made, its not hard; we make steel for godsake.] OR corn glue, or a myriad of other things. But instead of listening, the dearth of yes men take up arms because "no! not the evil pvpers!"

 

It's probably more your hysteria.

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1. Madmole is anti pvp - After years of watching him post i still don't know why, but he is, his ''vision'' is blinkered by what he wants to design but more importantly 'how' he wants people to play. Now sure, its his game and we have to respect that but you really would think that at some point he would wake up and think ''all the most succesfully MP games in the world include or are soley based on PVP (enter various MP PVP games here, its a big list). So why not stop actively dissing PVP players and just support it? More people would play, for longer, revenue would increase and very importantly....

 

He's not anti pvp. His vision for this game is SP or a small group of buddies playing cooperatively. There is a difference. Perhaps they might decide to make the next game focused primarily on PvP. Not this one though. Why not join the horde of other PvP games on the market? Why not change their vision into something that could be more lucrative and attract hundreds of thousands of people who have a KOS attitude? Because they have been successful enough that they don't have to cave.

 

...2. The PVE aspects of the game would not be impacted. And this is the second element, pvp is always positioned as taking away dev time from pve and this is a lie that the more fanatical pve players have come to unthinkingly beleive.

 

The absolute opposite is actually true, let me give you some examples:

 

a. 4 new guns are introduced, result? both pve and pvp players are happy because now they have more to do, collect, use. Any balance issues with the new guns (if there are any) won't affect pve players as they THEY DONT SHOOT EACH OTHER

b. 3 new armour sets are introduced, result? both pve and pvp players are happy because now they have more to do, collect, use. Any balance issues with the new armours (if there are any) won't affect pve players as they THEY DONT SHOOT EACH OTHER and both sets of players get the advantages of the new armour vs the zombies

c. A new super tough block above stainless steel is introduced, result? pve players have a new end tier to strive for to build their uber fortresses and pvp players get a new end tier block to strive for to protect their bases from other players

 

Those are very tame examples of adding items to the game. Of course there will be no conflict. But what about digging zombies? I've read some complaints about digging zombies messing up PvP because they will reveal underground bases after horde nights. PvE no problem. PvP big problem. It's not items or blocks that are going to cause problems it is features that cater to one at the expense of another. Most of the complaints about the removal of spam crafting came from PvP players because they (as H0tr0d pointed out) play this game like an RTS min maxing their way to top levels as quickly as possible to gain an advantage over others on the server. Single Players and Co-operative players have no need to rush to the end game. So systems put in place that create a slow progression are criticized by the PvP crowd as "too grindy" and "lazy programming" because it thwarts them from leveling at top speed like they need to to be competitive. SP and Co-op people who enjoy the slow pace of progressing their character as they survive day to day in the world are just fine with it. But sure, more guns, more armor, and a higher tier block won't harm either group. Nice finds.

 

You see almost any new thing that is introduced with either benefit both player types equally or not impact pve players in a negative way and yet this myth that adding some new things pvp players would like somehow screws over pve players still exists because it is fed by a very poor use of language by the devs.

 

Its simply not true.

 

What is true is that the Devs have priorities and adding extras like additional weapons, armor, and even higher tier blocks all beyond what we already have is not at the top of the priority list so they aren't going to take the time to do it. Your examples really don't have anything to do with the devs trying to avoid benefiting PvP players and PvE players at the same time. Your examples have everything to do with the fact that there are bigger fish to fry.

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Ill take a quick note on this post right here; 15minutes of coding to add some bullet resistance to armor; 15 MINUTES. THATS WHAT IT'D TAKE ME AND IM RUSTY AS A PROGRAMMER. Why does vanilla not have this for the pvper aspect of the game; oh right, because we dont matter. So just noting, hell yeah im jaded over it. Its not like it even affects solo player, yet you claim "oh just go mod it in" So all the love of "inclusiveness" but one of us show up and ask for VERY LITTLE THINGS as far as coding goes; and we get ♥♥♥♥ on.

 

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"exaggerated or uncontrollable emotion or excitement, especially among a group of people."

 

"deny (someone) access to or bar (someone) from a place, group, or privilege."

 

I'll let you figure out which one is leading to anger, not hysteria. I'm aware that typed words do not convey emotion well.

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