merlinfire Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 compensation? in the apocalypse? dude the point is to survive and possibly thrive if you are very good. not get rich after society falls it's no holds barred and you expect fairness? Honestly I'm amazed at the folks that are defending this design change. This is a core gameplay loop that has always existed in the game. It would be like if Diablo 2/3 stopped letting loot drop except from chests and act-bosses. Maybe it would be "more realistic" that every random zombie and skeleton weren't dropping gold and swords, but that would go against a core gameplay element of the game since the beginning. It's about game design. You design a game to be fun, and if you design it in such a way that it disincentivizes players to participate in the game systems that are supposed to form the core of the fun, that is a flaw that will take away from the overall fun of the game. Even most of the folks saying they like the change will end up changing their game behavior in their personal games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlinfire Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I don't follow your logic. Customer: My steak is too salty. Waiter: You haven't even tasted it yet, sir. It's still cooking. Customer: That's hardly my fault. I wanted to taste it an hour ago! Waiter: Oh, you're right. That does mean it's too salty. Except in that example, presumably, the waiter at least asked how we would like it cooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deceiver101 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 1. your frequent use of hyperboly makes your statements less credible, since it sounds like you only pull numbers out of your behind 2. and there are countless players who play multiplayer(PVP and PVE) that never register on the forums, beit because of the language barrier or because they see no need for it or dislike forums... that is not an argument. And I feel like your vision for this game has warped your view on things a bit... as I've said I dont have much data... but from all I've seen there are TONS of PvP players... unmodded dedicated servers have (in the first 2 months) up to 300 regular players online. If you account for undedicated, changed settings (which makes them go under modded) and modded pvp servers, you have a pretty decent chunk of your community playing pvp. Lets go with the absolute highest number of 32.000 players ever at A16 release. The unmodded, unchanged dedicated pvp servers in europe (since somehow other continent servers dont show up for me...) are >300 players so those are 1%. America+1% rest of the world+2%, modded settings+1%+modded servers&non dedicated+1%. And this is the absolute lowest number. 6%. I think its WAY closer to ~20%. 1. Hyperbole is used to make a point. His point PvP is in the minority. 2. Again, you're basing your logic off speculation, while the developers probably have a better sense of the statistics than you do. Either way, it just makes sense to work towards improving things for the majority of their playerbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anabella Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 About the loot from zombie that was a think after alpha 2 or 3 so in Alpha 1 was no loot on zombie and we can still get all the loot we want so no need to woried. And about loot drop what you get from zombies anyways just some brass and maybe some paper big deal you have the book store from paper and houses for brass and killing zombie is good for xp and will stay like that. So calm down a bit magicians who already know how will be Alpha 17 before even play it. GG TFP keep the great work. Alpha 1 most certainly did have loot on zombies. I just opened up the game and double checked it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damocles Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Honestly I'm amazed at the folks that are defending this design change. This is a core gameplay loop that has always existed in the game. It would be like if Diablo 2/3 stopped letting loot drop except from chests and act-bosses. Maybe it would be "more realistic" that every random zombie and skeleton weren't dropping gold and swords, but that would go against a core gameplay element of the game since the beginning. It's about game design. You design a game to be fun, and if you design it in such a way that it disincentivizes players to participate in the game systems that are supposed to form the core of the fun, that is a flaw that will take away from the overall fun of the game. Even most of the folks saying they like the change will end up changing their game behavior in their personal games. I agree with that remark. Next to the frequent reward in the game loop (opening containers and finding something is itself a reward), it also allows to balance loot between static (POI containers) and dynamic (zombies) lootdrops. A raided POI is empty, the player has to venture further and further away to find stuff. The path there can still give dynamic rewards (killed zombies), and not just become empty of loot. Also: it allows to make zombies according to their class drop specific loot. So they are not just a general threat but a target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minandreas Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Quote Originally Posted by Minandreas Whoever implemented this. I love you. Kinyajuu Kinyajuu then. THANK YOOOOOOOOOOOOU! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NL-Chaos Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 indeed That. Is. Exactly. What. ok i'm done typing like a weird person. But THAT is exactly what is wrong with endgame. Is there still stuff to do? Yes plenty, but nothing that has great meaning or the same fulfilling feeling as when you work towards endgame. Not sure if the devs don't want us to do things at endgame? Or simply have no time for it? I hate games that once you FINALLY reach that endgoal with all the sweet skills, mega fireball, super duper invisibility etc. The game ends. Like dude wtf, I just got here. Let me reign some terror please. Let me repair the radar dome, and upon completion everyone gets a shared map. Spawn in zombie hives that I have to find and destroy or they will constantly keep spawning the worst of the worst to GPS track me. Something of value. I seriously don't understand why these things aren't in yet. Indeed repairing should give something just as i would love to see that we can craft or unscrew a solar panel so we can use it not just buying it from a trader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SittingDuck Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Is it because you got old, or because you are out of practice? It takes about 3 weeks to get razor sharp playing it 8 hours a day then I'm pretty good again. Even in my old degraded form I'm still way faster than most young dudes in their prime, but I always had super human twitch reflexes. Its true reflexes degrade, but somehow I'm stronger than ever and play guitar better now than in my 20's. If you practice, you get better at anything. I quit playing competitive multiplayer because the stress of it makes me hot flash. My ears turn beat red and stay that way for hours afterwards and its pretty uncomfortable. But I'm super competitive so I take getting fragged like very seriously, so as soon as I'm in it, my pulse is racing and its like a weird high. I used to play quake 8 hours a day, 16 hours on weekends I loved it so much. Now I just play skyrim because single player games don't stress me out. 7 Days stresses me out sometimes, but its fun. Hell putting on headphones to make videos does it too I need a pair of ice pack head phones lol. Nice to hear, but seriously i don´t care how good you play 7 days... you are the Mastermind of this game and i love to here what you tell us about it, the small comment etc. dam you could get killed by a chicken and i would be entertained ^^... btw. you have realy the gift, that you are very entertaining when not getting it done in game ^^ MadMole gameplayvideos are THE BEST. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnomaana Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 HEY now! Look at the server list and population count on MP servers. Out of all MP servers I would say at LEAST 20% if not 30% of active players are playing on PvPvE or even specifically PvP servers. Co-op is definitely the majority but I wouldn't say PvPers are "less than 1%," that's just not a fair statement. Lol. He stated that the playerbase is friends playing coop and single player on private servers and your rebuttal is to look at the public server figures. You are arguing with the guy that has access to ALL of the numbers. I defended you earlier but you are on your own this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anabella Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I'm suggesting using the bedroll as a anti-spawn device, I don't expect to die while raiding the POI. Yes but it can happen or a direwolf can spawn as you are leaving the POI. I prefer my bedroll to be at my base so if I die I can grab some items if needed. Also I like to use my bedroll icon on my compass to find my way back home easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viktoriusiii Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Do u realize most people play single player &coop peer to peer and ignore servers what does that change about my calculations? They are still logged as online players so my calculation doesnt change one bit. 1. Hyperbole is used to make a point. His point PvP is in the minority. 2. Again, you're basing your logic off speculation, while the developers probably have a better sense of the statistics than you do. Either way, it just makes sense to work towards improving things for the majority of their playerbase. 1. yes. but if you never give a scientific data, using only hyperboly or other kinds of avoiding actual numbers, you come across as unknowing or at best as a ♥♥♥♥ for not simply telling you the numbers 2.as I said. but my calculations are based upon rough numbers I have seen online, while his statement has NEVER been proven (to my knowledge) and is only ever splurted out whenever someone makes a plea or a suggestions regarding multiplayer EVEN if the change wouldnt effect singleplayer at all. (for example base offline health aka. offline raiding would only need tweaking numbers and satisfy "1%" of the playerbase. It probably took longer to comment in the forum then to change offlineblock health standart to unlimited. But to completly ignore everything from multiplayer players, when your game DOES HAVE multiplayer and IS USED BY AT LEAST 1% (more like ~20%) is not a very good thing to do. They have the right to... obviously. Doesn't mean it is nice, correct, or that I cannot voice my opinion about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anabella Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I'm pretty sure I could destroy you in any game, I used to smash whole teams of people against me alone in quake and counter strike and was offered to be sponsored years back to travel and compete but I was wanting to make games so I declined. I do stupid stuff deliberately to make the videos entertaining so think what you want to think. I already proved the game can't kill me in my dead is dead video series I posted an alpha or two ago, and look at my kill 20 dog challenge video. After we shipped Gore (a pvp shooter) the best guy who was hands down the top player in the whole community challenged me and I smoked him 20 to 3. And your the one who is comical, the pvp player base is less than 1% of our customer base. Maybe its 40% of the vocal minority community, but its literally nothing, all our players are friends playing coop with friends or single player on private servers. I am sure we could come up with a rented server for you two to DUKE it out on. Would be the first time I would be looking forward to seeing some PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h0tr0d Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I'm pretty sure I could destroy you in any game, I used to smash whole teams of people against me alone in quake and counter strike and was offered to be sponsored years back to travel and compete but I was wanting to make games so I declined. I do stupid stuff deliberately to make the videos entertaining so think what you want to think. I already proved the game can't kill me in my dead is dead video series I posted an alpha or two ago, and look at my kill 20 dog challenge video. After we shipped Gore (a pvp shooter) the best guy who was hands down the top player in the whole community challenged me and I smoked him 20 to 3. And your the one who is comical, the pvp player base is less than 1% of our customer base. Maybe its 40% of the vocal minority community, but its literally nothing, all our players are friends playing coop with friends or single player on private servers. Well the PvP base is definitely a minority but the amount who play it is much higher than that. No matter the play-style you have to contend with zombies but the reason for PvP is not because we seek a run-n-gun Halo/CoD/Quake/CS whatever style; it is because after a point the zombies and environment pose no challenge. This is not a fault I find with the game; every game I have played the AI/Comp opponent...if you will... becomes predictable as there is/are always pattern(s). When I PvP it is because I seek a challenge against a thinking opponent; someone who can adapt and challenge me in ways the AI cannot...that's it! In Multiplayer I see interaction with more than one player; this is why you see co-op as an option in many games alongside multiplayer. The best thing any game can do is to set the world out and let the experience be as organic as possible. A multiplayer world is set and players can co-op or not, PvP or not. Looking at the PvP aspect does not hurt the game; rather, it adds to everyone's experience. They don't HAVE to PvP...the server rules and bot managers can dictate. But the possibility can only enhance their experience and for those who wish to PvP primarily they will still have to contend with zombies...don't worry about that. But there is nothing wrong with trying to make this a more feasible aspect of gameplay because it is merely an aspect; it does not change the game fundamentally. Stage 1 - spawn in do the tasks find the trader survive versus the environment Stage 2 contend with environment as well as zombies now Stage 3 all of the above and begin preparations for zombie attacks with your base as you acquire resources. It's always the same. And people can log out for horde night....you can't "force" anyone to do anything despite your vision. Just create the environment and let the experience be organic. And as far as destroying people in any game I noticed you listed FPS games. I attended the PGL where Thresh was the guest for the Quake 2 winner to compete in Pong with as I was there for the RTS Total annihilation. If you want to bring up Red alert or Total annihilation I'll most likely do the destroying as I was the #1 ranked player in the world for a yr and a half in TA. Top Ten Red alert and our team held the #1 ranking briefly..heh. You think of PvP in terms on Quake or Counterstrike...FPS games. And while the game is most certainly FPS it plays more like a RTS. YOu acquire resources over a time period and then endure an assault or you engage in one. We don't have loadouts and the maps are huge. We seek resource deposits to acquire resources to build bases and then upgrade our defenses and eventually prepare for the offensive if we choose. This is what is done in RTS games...and styles differ. In 7DTD I PvP because I want a thinking opponent. I start like anyone else; I acquire resources and build myself up to survive the environment and set a place to store my resources. This storage needs defending; however, I do not seek to defend myself from zombies...turning off forges, tunneling at bedrock, and movement are how I defend. If you pardon the pun my playstyle renders the zombies "non-entities" unless I wish to raise my rifle skill and get kills/exp/loot. The more kills leads to higher gamestages and better loot. But the acquisition is all in preparation for engaging my opponent and if you think bout turn-based strategy...that is this game too. We can all play at the same time as a RTS... but as we have different real-life schedules it becomes turn-based. People will raid your base or set the stage when you are offline; I know players wait until I log before venturing into certain cities/areas. Mines are not for Zombies... there are more efficient ways to kill them. PVP in this game is rarely a run and gun encounter. Usually it is turn-based as your PvP becomes you versus their base or it is a sniper battle. Quit pigeonholing PvP into a Counter Strike corner as it is not that. But I'm up for a challenge on my server or the RTS world. http://igl.net/total/ Hallf of fame Here is a RL Video of horde night coming to my house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anabella Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I don't think there will be an A18. We'll probably do a beta update and go gold after that. That doesn't mean there won't be some content updates though. OMG you didn't just do that?? We still have bandits to go in and I would be for sure that would be a reason for another alpha. @Roland you have the bunker ready? I will bring extra wood planks so we can get it ready to hold up against what is going to brew with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eagle LXIX Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I've noticed something in the video: [ATTACH=CONFIG]25007[/ATTACH] please, fix it, it's driving me nuts! I'm pretty sure that slot is reserved for something I took from there and until the pack is full its going to keep that spot open for me in case I acquire that item again. @gustonator, why did you point that out? Now I'm going to see it all the time till it is fixed or modded. @madmole, I believe gustonator was pointing out that the Crafting queue and the recipe list are not aligned on the right side (the 2 red lines with question mark show the amount of disparity between the 2 right edges {zoom in on image to see it better}). Not the empty spot in the top left. The poster was also most likely suggesting there should be a fifth crafting queue spot (non-existent blank spot on left of queue). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerfly Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Offtopic: thank you Roland for cleaning the mess caused by some recent post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janna3921 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I hate that expression and don't use it. When someone says it, I tend to think they lie. The remarks of "to be honest" isn't a lie, it more of I feel I can speak freely and not have to be careful in how it is worded. Going shopping with a friend and she pulls out a dress and goes what do you think? You want to curl your lip and go you would look horrible in it. Instead you go, not bad, but I think you should look some more before you decide. There is polite and a safe way, then there is flat out blunt, not holding anything back. So, no, doesn't mean they are liars, just at times want to be more polite in their wording. Now, if he is a politician, that is a whole other can of worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anabella Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I'm pretty sure that slot is reserved for something I took from there and until the pack is full its going to keep that spot open for me in case I acquire that item again. He was pointing to the left hand side and the mismatched alignment and the lack of symmetry that is the crafting queue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anabella Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Madmole: I also used to go around the country for LAN tournaments (but for Descent II, a man's game, not the bunny hopping clickfest Counterstrike), and I also used to be very good. But the bad news is MM, we got old. I know, I know, it sucks, but it's true. Now when I hop into a PvP game of any kind, I'm like Mr. Magoo (and if you know who that is, then you're also old)... sure, I bumble along and get some kills, but nowhere near my prior life's level of mayhem and destruction. So what I'm hearing from you is though, that you and Bloom can have a 1v1 PvP game which of course will be streamed live, and the winner gets the steam key for the test branch going forward? Dang Guppy make it something he would actually give. I want to see the battle. Yes and I know first time I have ever asked to watch PvP. I guess everything must happen at some point. - - - Updated - - - Whoever implemented this. I love you. That would be Kinyajuu and yes he is AWESOME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zadwanaa Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Honestly I'm amazed at the folks that are defending this design change. This is a core gameplay loop that has always existed in the game. It would be like if Diablo 2/3 stopped letting loot drop except from chests and act-bosses. Maybe it would be "more realistic" that every random zombie and skeleton weren't dropping gold and swords, but that would go against a core gameplay element of the game since the beginning. It's about game design. You design a game to be fun, and if you design it in such a way that it disincentivizes players to participate in the game systems that are supposed to form the core of the fun, that is a flaw that will take away from the overall fun of the game. Even most of the folks saying they like the change will end up changing their game behavior in their personal games. Kind of odd comparing a loot pinata ARPG like D3 to a survival realistic (obv. to an extent) zombie horror game. Since D3 is ment to have gear fall from the sky. Also, gold means very little in D3 outside of empowering GRs. From my experience.. Zombies in vanilla never really dropped much, just hopes and expectations that were shotdown. Outside of military zombies, the loot was always meh. Always felt that the pois were where the big loots were at. ive never jumped off the mini bike and kill every zombie i saw for all the lootz. But hey, we'll see how the game feels once we can play it, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlinfire Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Kind of odd comparing a loot pinata ARPG like D3 to a survival realistic (obv. to an extent) zombie horror game. Since D3 is ment to have gear fall from the sky. Also, gold means very little in D3 outside of empowering GRs. From my experience.. Zombies in vanilla never really dropped much, just hopes and expectations that were shotdown. Outside of military zombies, the loot was always meh. Always felt that the pois were where the big loots were at. ive never jumped off the mini bike and kill every zombie i saw for all the lootz. But hey, we'll see how the game feels once we can play it, right? Dozens and dozens of people, many of whom have thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of hours in the game, have a very good idea of how their gameplay will be impacted when 90% of zombie loop evaporates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skullpoker Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 What's this about a spider meme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anabella Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Those same spots may be seen. Windows, doors, holes in wall. It can change. You can bust a hole in a wall, see the zombie, leave, come back, it fails to respawn in that spot, because it can be seen. What is weird is, sleeper volumes don't despawn until you are 30 meters away from the cube and then 30 seconds after that. Sounds like a bug, since 30m is a long distance. Has to be a bug then because I can have a sleeper spawn and then move 10-15 blocks away and then come back and it will be gone or a different one in place of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlinfire Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Looting every zombie after a horde night could add up. The problem is, we don't see 7 day or wandering hordes as delivery guys. =) What of noticeable value to a zombie apocalypse survivor do you have in your pockets right now? =P With all due respect, should not the concerns of the players come first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedo Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Honestly I'm amazed at the folks that are defending this design change. This is a core gameplay loop that has always existed in the game. It would be like if Diablo 2/3 stopped letting loot drop except from chests and act-bosses. Maybe it would be "more realistic" that every random zombie and skeleton weren't dropping gold and swords, but that would go against a core gameplay element of the game since the beginning. It's about game design. You design a game to be fun, and if you design it in such a way that it disincentivizes players to participate in the game systems that are supposed to form the core of the fun, that is a flaw that will take away from the overall fun of the game. Even most of the folks saying they like the change will end up changing their game behavior in their personal games. I can't really speak to your Diablo comparison (I never got around to #3), but I remember on release that people were talking about the many changes. Even now, a quick google search reveals that many people think that core gameplay elements were removed. (Aside, I'll point to Breath of the Wild's removal of classic/core gameplay elements. It's still a great Zelda game.) "Fun" is a subjective word, as you can tell from the many discussions past and present on this forum. This means that certain elements of the game are fun for some and not fun for others. Also, it's weird to say that the hazards of a game are a core element that people would choose to participate in. When playing classic Mario, I was more than happy to avoid tangling with Goombas and Koopas and Bullet Bills. This did not take away from my fun. Finally, citing the fact that people will change their strategies is a non sequitur from the rest of your argument. Changing strategy does not mean that people suddenly are not having fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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