Roland Posted August 8, 2018 Author Share Posted August 8, 2018 Players should be allowed to be 100% safe if they wish. Their choice. I think that bases should be secure, but remaining alive difficult. Gives us a lot of reasons to venture out, and make the outside way more dangerous than it currently is. Let home be safe, outside scary AF and unsafe. I agree that Home should be 100% safe via passive and active defenses. This game has never ever been about slapping blocks together without thought. It has been about designing a defense. The zombies have new tricks for A17 and it will require adaptation and new designs. With all the complaining about how long A17 is taking I’m assuming people are tired of A16. So why do people want A17 to play like A16? Underground bases are now going to require design strategies instead of simply digging down then over. Overland bases are going to require new strategies. Many of the old ones will no longer work. Isn’t this good news? Aren’t people looking for a new experience and challenge that will keep them engaged with A17 for more than a few weeks before feeling that it’s pretty much just like A16? Embrace the need to adapt and you will find a lot to enjoy in the next iteration. Stick with the same old ways of playing and....rage quit I suppose. All of your contrary opinions are valid, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unholyjoe Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Grabboids confirmed for A17!!! (kidding, but from a good movie!) yep wife has the entire collection dvds and now and than does watch them... actually i think we will watch it tonight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drithyl Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 That's pretty much my point. The idea that the game should have no "safe" way to play by eliminating solid strategies is something that I will never agree with. It's funny that based on all the people who disagree and are "happy" to see this change never seem to be on any sever I've played on. I've got well over 3k hours into the game and every sever I've ever played on has been home to (many) players who prefer having a realistic approach to safety versus having a constant pain of unrealistic nuisances. Again, I still don't get the argument that "underground bases are boring". If your play-style is "I need constant attention at the expense of a bit of realism", then by all means, don't make your base underground. But those of us that enjoy a play-style where we can spend some time underground without zombies somehow detecting us from 100ft away, it's not seen as a boon that we're theoretically never safe. In a nutshell, my point is that eliminating (realistic) strategies and effectively removing strengths of one style of play is sad. I know that TFP are usually very good at balancing things that get implemented so I'm hopeful that this won't be what some think it will be. I think there is a sizeable player base that enjoys the ability to be more secluded. Snoops said that the game is largely tower defense, and while this might be true, there are lot of players who play it as more than tower defense. A true tower defense model is limited so keeping it narrow that way isn't seemingly too smart. Top tags as posted to Steam IRT 7DTD: Early Access Survival Zombies Open World Crafting Multiplayer Sandbox Building Co-op Action Adventure Survival Horror Horror Online Co-Op FPS Early Access RPG Indie Singleplayer Gore Just sayin'. A "solid strategy" is not something that exploits obvious flaws in the AI code. That's an exploit. I don't argue against the viability of underground bases, or against the underground being safer in general. It probably still will be, since the detection still has a radius and since you're underground, there won't be zombies spawning around you (since it's all dirt/stone). But zombies must be able to get you if you're standing right below them. Anything else leads to absurd pathfinding issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerfly Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Muwahahahaha....good luck with that bro....lol You shouldn`t be so evil. But more - leave him with his expactations ruined, just like his future base in A17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4sheetzngeegles Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 @Roland and Faatal ***The if no path/then, option is cool. First Fataal if possible please add that to entities.xml in tasks. and i hope this +/- Y, nopath sense goes upward quite a few blocks. It would make the zombie attack scenario change per play preference. ***Roland without saying the exact reacton, if you allow the zombies to sense and get close enough to be in hunted mode, then you go a +Y position, stay out of sight silent. Do they just gather at a single last known detected, or do they react to their environment? ***Dont want an exact answer, just that in A16 if I escape an onslaught, to an elevated postion, I have to walk to the edge to make myself visible. I have to do this to reactivate the movement, and continue the chase. Loss of line of sight, at the moment, seems to stop task list at last entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TylerDB Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Players should be allowed to be 100% safe if they wish. Their choice. I think that bases should be secure, but remaining alive difficult. Gives us a lot of reasons to venture out, and make the outside way more dangerous than it currently is. Let home be safe, outside scary AF and unsafe. You can be 100% safe, turn off spawn lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frisky Minx Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 I agree that Home should be 100% safe via passive and active defenses. This game has never ever been about slapping blocks together without thought. It has been about designing a defense. The zombies have new tricks for A17 and it will require adaptation and new designs. With all the complaining about how long A17 is taking I’m assuming people are tired of A16. So why do people want A17 to play like A16? Underground bases are now going to require design strategies instead of simply digging down then over. Overland bases are going to require new strategies. Many of the old ones will no longer work. Isn’t this good news? Aren’t people looking for a new experience and challenge that will keep them engaged with A17 for more than a few weeks before feeling that it’s pretty much just like A16? Embrace the need to adapt and you will find a lot to enjoy in the next iteration. Stick with the same old ways of playing and....rage quit I suppose. All of your contrary opinions are valid, btw. Exactly. You are open to options you had never considered. That is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping RandomGen and Looting POIs, but charting the unknowable possibilities of existence. I am so looking forward to this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faatal Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 You can be 100% safe, turn off spawn lol... You can play creative. My daughter does that if by herself, since the zombies scare her. Together she will play survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasayangoku Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 so when you say sound attracts zombies, does that mean likes trees falling over, me hitting stuff with a pickaxe type of sounds? i always thought it was weird that tree's falling over making all that noise literally did nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted August 8, 2018 Author Share Posted August 8, 2018 Zombies have a 30 second memory. If you walk to the edge of your base and they see you they will still continue to aggro and pathfind to your last known location for 30 seconds and if there is no viable path they will start breaking nearby support blocks. After the 30 seconds they should revert to wander mode. This of course doesn’t apply to feral zombies that can sense you even if they can’t see you. [somewhat overstated] By the way....at this time zombies know which blocks are supports and which are not. Placing random pillars that don’t support what you’re standing on doesn’t fool them. You can’t stand on a ledge and place wood frame blocks to “feed” them so they won’t break what’s holding you up. [/somewhat overstated] Good luck folks. It’s a brand new game. And it is quite a bit more terrifying than it ever has been. Even back in the day when all zombies GPS’ed to the players their pathfinding skills were nowhere near as good as they are now. Faatal’s name is bound to be cursed and blessed in equal measures pretty soon now. In fact they should put up a big “FAATALITY” message on the screen whenever you die to a zombie. Heheh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Louden Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 hey Roland... i want my bet on...... and i do not even gamble. I wouldn't be so fast to bet against me. I've long moved off of vanilla 7DTD to modded versions that are 500% harder than the base game. I had to build bases that can withstand waves of radiated exploding dogs and bears that take out 4 blocks at a time + 14ft boss zombies and the usual cops, spiders, etc. You can drill multiple tunnels from 1 side of the base to the other and it would not make a difference. They all shared the same weakness, they were not able to attack upward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faatal Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 By which he means refer to Faatal's many posts regarding zombies now having an attack mode where if they can't get to a player they'll start whacking nearby blocks in the hopes gravity brings the player to them. I'm still going to try elevated bases, because melee and dogs and I are a terrible combination, but now I'll have many many supports and enough room to move around constantly so the damage hopefully gets spread around. I'll also be reinvesting in spikes, something I got away from for the most part in a15 and a16...let 'em whack spikes all night trying to get to me! I like to hear new strategies, because that is what keeps it fresh for me and hopefully most of the players. Sitting in an underground base on day 7 while zombies ran in circles above, like my son did in A15 is pointless. He was happy because he exploited the stupid AI, while I refused to join him, since I wanted to bust those zombies heads and outwit them with my decoy base. Blood moons never touched my base, because we didn't stay there. New sleeping bags placed at decoy base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazeree Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 I agree that Home should be 100% safe via passive and active defenses. This game has never ever been about slapping blocks together without thought. It has been about designing a defense. The zombies have new tricks for A17 and it will require adaptation and new designs. With all the complaining about how long A17 is taking I’m assuming people are tired of A16. So why do people want A17 to play like A16? Underground bases are now going to require design strategies instead of simply digging down then over. Overland bases are going to require new strategies. Many of the old ones will no longer work. Isn’t this good news? Aren’t people looking for a new experience and challenge that will keep them engaged with A17 for more than a few weeks before feeling that it’s pretty much just like A16? Embrace the need to adapt and you will find a lot to enjoy in the next iteration. Stick with the same old ways of playing and....rage quit I suppose. All of your contrary opinions are valid, btw. Well put Roland. I think though that the message that keeps getting said contradicts the valid point you just made here: After reading hundreds of posts the message that keeps getting repeated is this: You underground dwellers are going to hate A17 cause now you will get what you deserve! This is far from the truth. If you can go back through everything meticulously, what will actually happen is this: Zombies will still be able to sense you underground if you make noise during normal days and radar you on horde night. This is actually in A16 as well. But in A17, the 'few' zombies during normal days will try to reach you (and probably wont do so very quickly if its a single Z) and the horde will do much more to reach you if all that is between them and you is a wooden hatch. Now, I always found it silly that the Zeds could decimate steel and concrete horizontally if left unchecked on horde night, but could not even pound sand vertically. Nobody said in any real distinction what 'digging down' means. My perception is that on horde nights in A17, vertical=horizontal. And I am all for it. What I don't like is that every time people talk about it, it is not with the intention of fixing this silly exploit. Everyone says the same thing: You cheaters will get yours. When I read these posts, I cannot take anyone at their 'face value' because even when someone starts their opinion with the classic "I just want the exploit gone because simply knowing it exists spoils the game for me even though I can choose not to use the exploit" and ends their opinion with "And you bedrock dwellers will be in a rude awaking". I personally don't care. My play style is above ground, and every time I make my active defense designs better, I increase the difficulty/zed count to regain the challenge. Digging down wont effect me at all. But you do have to admit, why is this such a big deal? Again, I support the change completely. But there is an awful lot of hostility about this subject, so much that I am simply saying I don't think its being discussed 'subjectively'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4sheetzngeegles Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 BIG Smile! Thanks for that Roland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingSlayerGM Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 I like to hear new strategies, because that is what keeps it fresh for me and hopefully most of the players. Sitting in an underground base on day 7 while zombies ran in circles above, like my son did in A15 is pointless. He was happy because he exploited the stupid AI, while I refused to join him, since I wanted to bust those zombies heads and outwit them with my decoy base. Blood moons never touched my base, because we didn't stay there. New sleeping bags placed at decoy base. LoL your son is smart "hey dad when are you gonna make things harder?" Faatal I am really looking forward to try your new AI, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faatal Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 By the way....at this time zombies know which blocks are supports and which are not. Placing random pillars that don’t support what you’re standing on doesn’t fool them. You can’t stand on a ledge and place wood frame blocks to “feed” them so they won’t break what’s holding you up. Uh, right now they don't do that. It was talked about, but SI is not a variable on each block and calcing it looks slow, so it is using weakest blocks. There is also random variation, so they are not all attacking the same block. I plan on improving this more for A17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xrt Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Thanks for the updates @faatal and @Roland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted August 8, 2018 Author Share Posted August 8, 2018 Uh, right now they don't do that. It was talked about, but SI is not a variable on each block and calcing it looks slow, so it is using weakest blocks. There is also random variation, so they are not all attacking the same block. I plan on improving this more for A17. I’ll try it again but when I did it before they ignored decoy columns that didn’t lead to me. If I overstated it then apologies. Maybe you guys will survive after all...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarbonadiuM Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 So why do people want A17 to play like A16? Underground bases are now going to require design strategies instead of simply digging down then over. Overland bases are going to require new strategies. Many of the old ones will no longer work. Isn’t this good news? Aren’t people looking for a new experience and challenge that will keep them engaged with A17 for more than a few weeks before feeling that it’s pretty much just like A16? I agree 100%, I'm all for the new changes, they are essentially making it into a new game. Love the backpack sizing, so being a nomad will be trickier and you have to choose what you really want to carry. A naked guy shouldn't be able to carry 21 guns. Limiting perks makes sense, why should a solo player be able to do things just as good as a full team of specialists. Much more replay value trying different tech tree builds. The #1 thing i am stoked about is no more gun parts!! Getting a 14 quality hunting rifle stock after cracking a safe in early levels doesn't feel too good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4sheetzngeegles Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Faatal no please dont give up yet. How about, just giving them a territorial assignment, associated with the socket lot that say 30 meter diameter. That should spread the woe. FAATALITY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowDog1942 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 With all the performance tweaks will more than 64 zeds at the same time for blood moons be an option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faatal Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 so when you say sound attracts zombies, does that mean likes trees falling over, me hitting stuff with a pickaxe type of sounds? i always thought it was weird that tree's falling over making all that noise literally did nothing. Me too. Some actions make sounds and some do not. I'd call those design holes, which normally you fix over time, but when you keep changing the design, you make new holes. As we stabilize designs going into gold, we should be able to fix stuff like that. I did make guns much louder when I was reworking sound to noise conversion. Being a gun enthusiast, I know how insanely loud guns are and hate the Hollywood depiction of firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Zombies have a 30 second memory. If you walk to the edge of your base and they see you they will still continue to aggro and pathfind to your last known location for 30 seconds and if there is no viable path they will start breaking nearby support blocks. After the 30 seconds they should revert to wander mode. This of course doesn’t apply to feral zombies that can sense you even if they can’t see you. By the way....at this time zombies know which blocks are supports and which are not. Placing random pillars that don’t support what you’re standing on doesn’t fool them. You can’t stand on a ledge and place wood frame blocks to “feed” them so they won’t break what’s holding you up. Good luck folks. It’s a brand new game. And it is quite a bit more terrifying than it ever has been. Even back in the day when all zombies GPS’ed to the players their pathfinding skills were nowhere near as good as they are now. Faatal’s name is bound to be cursed and blessed in equal measures pretty soon now. In fact they should put up a big “FAATALITY” message on the screen whenever you die to a zombie. Heheh. @Roland or Fataal.. or whoever. Oh! that's my question! Will we be able to adjust their memory setting? Like set it for 1min for the day (walkers) and 30 seconds for the night (runners)? If not: Can we get it added please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janna3921 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Well put Roland. I think though that the message that keeps getting said contradicts the valid point you just made here: After reading hundreds of posts the message that keeps getting repeated is this: You underground dwellers are going to hate A17 cause now you will get what you deserve! This is far from the truth. If you can go back through everything meticulously, what will actually happen is this: Zombies will still be able to sense you underground if you make noise during normal days and radar you on horde night. This is actually in A16 as well. But in A17, the 'few' zombies during normal days will try to reach you (and probably wont do so very quickly if its a single Z) and the horde will do much more to reach you if all that is between them and you is a wooden hatch. Now, I always found it silly that the Zeds could decimate steel and concrete horizontally if left unchecked on horde night, but could not even pound sand vertically. Nobody said in any real distinction what 'digging down' means. My perception is that on horde nights in A17, vertical=horizontal. And I am all for it. What I don't like is that every time people talk about it, it is not with the intention of fixing this silly exploit. Everyone says the same thing: You cheaters will get yours. When I read these posts, I cannot take anyone at their 'face value' because even when someone starts their opinion with the classic "I just want the exploit gone because simply knowing it exists spoils the game for me even though I can choose not to use the exploit" and ends their opinion with "And you bedrock dwellers will be in a rude awaking". I personally don't care. My play style is above ground, and every time I make my active defense designs better, I increase the difficulty/zed count to regain the challenge. Digging down wont effect me at all. But you do have to admit, why is this such a big deal? Again, I support the change completely. But there is an awful lot of hostility about this subject, so much that I am simply saying I don't think its being discussed 'subjectively'. That is what gets me. You can build your base with three walls deep on all four sides, have the inner area filled with wood frames and then have your crafting floor, then another floor for the workbench then a floor for forges and be fine, put up walls and fall pits, have six rows of spikes that are made of steel, melee blade, dart traps, turrets, electric fences and more and go those who are hiding underground should be made to come up and fight. Yeah, I have a base underground that is 20 blocks down, one layer of blocks around the walls that I have painted to look pretty. I have a room for my work stations, crafting, forges, medicine room, small kitchen and some other stuff. Above ground I have a empty room above it is a room that has my bedroom, with a nice area for a kitchen, tv with couch. Plans are to make another level below ground and make a rec room with pool in it, tv, couch, dinning area and more later on. Outside I have one row of reinforced cement blocks for my walls, five blocks away from my walls are pillars three high with one row of blocks and three rows of iron bars to stand on and shoot down from. Will be putting down spikes and blades later on. The whole ground has reinforced cement blocks down just one level to keep the zombies from digging around the area, all the way out to the iron bars. Yet they tell me I need to get out of my safe area and fight. They are the ones in the safe area high off the ground, spikes, trapes, thick walls the cops can't destroy, telling me I need to stop being a coward and fight the zombies. Who is hiding from the zombies, who has the really safe area that the zombies can't reach and destroy their home, that they want to deny me from having? I plan on fighting, I am learning how to build, caved in my first underground base, messed up and caused my second one above ground to fall apart because I didn't have it stable enough, I'm learning. You don't need to get down and fight the zombies face to face, loot for the dangerous zombies is none, they don't carry any, and most other loot is useless, except for a few, so why worry about being close enough to get hurt. You get better loot from the wandering hordes that you will fight with. 20 zombies that are walking and can be kept in a nice row to kill, vs 40 or more running around, glowing, spitting, blowing up and dangerous with no loot. Sit in your base and flip a switch to turn on and off your traps, blades, turrets and go out and shoot from up high with a scope and rifle and be in no danger. Sit in your safe zone, brag of how you fight zombies, of how many you killed. Then tell me I need to get some balls, quit hiding underground and fight them. That disgusts me about those who shout out that underground bases shouldn't be allowed. I think high bases shouldn't be allowed, then. It's survival, the goal is to live, not get killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emarat Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Me too. Some actions make sounds and some do not. I'd call those design holes, which normally you fix over time, but when you keep changing the design, you make new holes. As we stabilize designs going into gold, we should be able to fix stuff like that. I did make guns much louder when I was reworking sound to noise conversion. Being a gun enthusiast, I know how insanely loud guns are and hate the Hollywood depiction of firearms. I thought the reason why games lower gun noise is actually to protect players eardrums. That is at least the explanation that i heard once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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